Israel impeding effort to clear cluster bombs

[DarkThinker]

I thought that by now the Israeli army would come to it's senses, but Israel is still refusing to provide maps to the cluster bombs the Israeli army launched into Lebanon during the Summer of 2006 conflict to the UN and Lebanese demining experts!

Last week a British demining expert lost his life due a cluster bomb that killed him instantly as he was sweeping for unexploded Israeli ordnance in the city of Bint Jbeil.

<Israel created 23,612 square miles (38,000 square Kilometers ) of cluster bomb infested land! ----> I made a conversion error true area is : 38000000 meters / 1000000 = 38 square kilometers. I divided by 1000 by mistake and didn't notice. But the article clearly states 38,000,000 square meters so it was my mistake and not a an intentional manipulation of information. But thanks for those who pointed it out.


<<Israel dropped 90% of the 4 million cluster bomblets of which only 40% didn't explode on impact during the last 72 hours of the war after the terms of a UN-brokered cease-fire had been agreed upon!

So in the final 72 hours after the agreement they squeezed in all they had, and a year after the conflict, after the Lebanese Army and the UN peace forces immediately created a buffer zone in the entirely of southern Lebanon, the Israeli army still refuses to hand over maps of the locations they dropped these bombs on that have put the agricultural activity in the south to a stand still while they kill civilians.

A reasonable person can arrive at only one conclusion, Israel purposely targeted Lebanese civilians with these hellish cluster bombs that are causing amputations and deaths and huge economical losses to Lebanese civilians especially children that don't know any better.

Why is the international community and our government staying mostly silent over this with the good exception of human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch which have taken on the honorable task of pointing the finger clearly at Israel's disregard for civilian lives when it comes to this specific issue.

This is intolerable, no matter what reason Israel had during the war to launch these cluster bomblets ( but I think we now have a clear idea) there is no logic that can reasonably explain why Israel should keep withholding such information from those who are trying to save lives and dying in the process too.

Here are some videos about the topic:

Deputy Director of Amnesty International USA Curt Goering on the topic

Living with Cluster Bombs in Lebanon

CNN Report

Daily Star

 

[Aimster]

That's what happens when you go into a war and you are not prepared because of a lack of insight. Israel went into the war arrogant with a feeling that it would be another Gaza-like sweep.

They were completely taken by surprise and were ill prepared for what happened.

They used those weapons because they wanted everyone in that area dead. The PM promised to stop the rocket attacks. In order to stop the rocket attacks everyone in that area must go bye-bye.

Dirty politics. Dead people by the stroke of a pen.

Also ... I know Israel was wrong, but men with guns are evil. Doesn't matter what nation they are from or what religion they are. When men hold guns in their hands and they have all this adrenaline pumping through their bodies, they don't give a rat's ass about the other side.

 

[piasabird]

Isreal was targeted by terrorists operating from Lebanon. They work in such an area as to blend into the civilian population. They choose to situate themselves into the civilians areas. They do this on purpose so that anyone who attacks them will have to kill the civilians around them. Lebanon chose to welcome these thugs. Either that or they were forced to let the thugs live among them. So lebanon and the terrorists invited Isreal to attack by launching rockets into Isreal.

Isreal chose to defend themsleves and the rockets kept coming for over a week. So Isreal bombed their enemies. They were forced to. So who cares where the bombs landed?

Did you know there were UN observers in Lebanon? How come the UN did nothing while the terrorists moved in all their weapons and rockets. Where was the UN when all this was going on. The UN let all this happen under their watch and did nothing. The UN is full of cowards shaking in their boots. Then the UN blames Isreal for defending their nation. The people in the UN are cowards.

You do realize that Isreal is surrounded by enemies like Syria, who help with logistics for the terrorists that move in and out of Lebanon. That is the country that all the Rockets were going through to reach Lebanon so the Hezbolah could bomb Isreal.

It is not Isreal that causes the civilians to die it is Iran, and Syria, and the Hezbolah Terrorists.

Maybe the UN should be kicking the terrorists our of Lebanon and do their job for a change instead of standing around twirling their thumbs.

 

[DarkThinker]

My stance on Hizbollah and the war is very clear and my point has been discussed till death in maqny threads.

If you have read the OP you would have clearly seen this :

This is intolerable, no matter what reason Israel had during the war to launch these cluster bomblets ( but I think we now have a clear idea) there is no logic that can reasonably explain why Israel should keep withholding such information from those who are trying to save lives and dying in the process too.

View the links that I have posted and come back with your opinion. Your current post is off topic from this thread.

 

[Acanthus]

Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

yes.

Hezbollah intentionally used your civilian population as human shields. They are the ones responsible for the death and destruction brought to your doorstep.

 

[Aimster]

Israel used more bombs and missiles than there are Hezbollah members.

They also attacked in places where no rockets could possibly have come from.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

Yes, it is Hezbollahs fault, not Israels.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

Yes, it is Hezbollahs fault, not Israels.

Hezbollah didn't do anything.

Israel overreacted because of an idiot PM.
The people of Israel agree the PM is an idiot.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

Yes, it is Hezbollahs fault, not Israels.

Hezbollah didn't do anything.

Israel overreacted because of an idiot PM.
The people of Israel agree the PM is an idiot.

Im just saying if they werent using civs for human shields... civs wouldnt be dieing over there in horrendous numbers.

Im not really an israel sympathizer.

 

[Aimster]

I want to know where people are getting these "used civilians as human shields" statistics.

Did someone write it and word of mouth spread?

Israeli tanks, armor, soldiers were being hit. Israel couldn't advance. Hezbollah fighters were engaging in Israeli troops.

There are no pictures of rocket launchers being fired from next to apartment buildings. In fact all the pictures and videos I've seen are of rocket launchers hidden in the forests or in grassy areas.

The reason the civilians were targeted is because Israel wanted to take out any buildings or structures that could benefit Hezbollah soldiers during Israel's advance. Israel's plan was to capture the entire South. In order to do so they would have to take out structures where Hezbollah members could be hiding.
Of course Israel never advanced that far and the destruction was a total waste. That is how Israel operates. The people of Israel don't have sympathy for the loss of Arab blood. In the U.S we have a wave of people who cry "baby killers" so the U.S operates differently.

The people in those apartment buildings were loyal to Hezbollah. They were the children, mother and fathers of Hezbollah. Therefore, since they were somehow linked to Hezbollah Israel didn't give a rat's ass about them. That is how Israel operates.

Plus it makes sense.. rocket launchers are next exactly placed on top of buildings. Nor will civilians be gathered around a rocket launcher that everyone knows will be taken out by F-16s.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

yes.

Hezbollah intentionally used your civilian population as human shields. They are the ones responsible for the death and destruction brought to your doorstep.

OUCH.

WRONG.

I'll have to remember this the next time you turn around and get mad at what others may call "collateral damage" to us.

=========

Pisabird totally sidestepped the topic and instead moved into the issue of how Israel is defending itself while quietly mentioning "who cares where it lands". Not looking at the obvious fact that turning 1/2 of a country into a mine field is NOT "Defending" itself. These actions create more problems and more ill will to Israel because the people who will be affected is not an organization that is ready for situations like this, but the average person who is simply trying to farm his food. Realistically people spent more time going about their day surviving than anything else. The people in general probably gave as much support to Hizbollah as a person in the middle of Iowa is dedicated to aiding the war of terrar.

I wonder what we would say if Lebanon did the same under to Israel - we'd probably go crazy over how the "arabbzzZ" want the blood of the "jewww babbbies" through an act whose goal is to specifically inflict as much pain, in all its forms, on civilians. Where it is crippling an economy, or crippling a person - the goal is straight forward.
For every death Israel causes - it was not a death that Israel caused - it was the Arabs killing their own neighbors. Isn't that such a clever strategy! Even though it is very clear who killed someone - they did not actually kill them, it was the other side! Oh I wish I could throw in a witty Moonbeam comment right now.

Ah well - this reaction is to be expected considering that Israel does everything with tact support from the USA. This is of course, due to the thick smog of pro israeli interests here. They are second to none when it comes to influencing foreign policy, and to that - I tip my hat.
Unlike the past, Arabs (as well as Muslims in general) are not just studying medicine and engineering all day long in good ol USA. Many are going to those same areas that heavy pro israeli interests exists, and as far as I'm concerned - will only serve to hopefully provide a more balanced approach once its own machine is started. Surely it will not quickly progress to the advanced the level of Isreali Machina, but give it 20 years and things can and will change.

Sure we can talk about the "wonderful democracy" that Israel can have through a more free market and people who want to better themselves- but until we have balanced approach - its hard to let any kind of market exist in places where basic agriculture is completely destroyed along with basic and advanced infrastructure, or the area is completely and economically isolated by Israel; Hard to "better oneself" when somewhere is there trying to cockblock you every step of the way.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

Yes, it is Hezbollahs fault, not Israels.

First and foremost, cluster bombs are absolutely prohibited under international law from being used in civilian areas and are part of the US Israeli contract. Feel free to look it up on your own or get that info in one of my links.

Second thing, palehorse74 and Acanthus, your undignified response just demonstrates to us a nice sample of what constitutes a good portion of the pro-Israeli movement. Not even I condone attacks on Israeli civilians, because it's just wrong both in my religious and logical concepts heck not even if part of a retaliation, and to top it off I am a Lebanese and a Muslim that had close innocent people who were targeted by Israel for no good reason.


Here is a nice paragraph from an article from Human Rights Watch:

...
The Israeli government claims that it targets only Hezbollah, and that fighters from the group are using civilians as human shields, thereby placing them at risk. Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah occasionally did store weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those cases do not justify the IDF?s extensive use of indiscriminate force which has cost so many civilian lives. In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack.
...

Full Article

What do the civilians have to do with it? It's so easy to imagine that Hizbollah was using everyone as a shield, yet there is no proof of it. Israel just handed the entire Lebanese population a pre-determined mass death sentence just because Hizbollah launched a skirmish from their usual squabble area in Lebanon. Much more people than you think were no where near any Hizbollah locations and rocket launchings when they got killed, and I know many personally too.

I tried to steer everyone from the subject of who to blame for the war because this is not what the OP is about!

If anyone here is interested in proving to me that Israel attacked the Lebanese civilian population because "it had no other option", then please be kind enough to address the real topic of this thread and explain away why Israel launched %90 of it's cluster bombs at densely civilian populated area which for the most part didn't have any Hizbollah presence given the incursion into Lebanon after it had reached an agreement with the UN and Hizbollah? Explain why the Israeli army lied to their own soldiers and told them that they weren't firing those cluster bombs on civilian areas?

Why isn't anyone addressing that?

 

[Acanthus]

Im honestly just hoping one side nukes the other so i can stop hearing about you guys never getting over your 60 year old squabbles.

But i digress, war sucks, especially when its targeted on a group of people and not a nation.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Im honestly just hoping one side nukes the other so i can stop hearing about you guys never getting over your 60 year old squabbles.

And lets hope it never comes to that, because that is honestly one of the worst hopes to ever have.

But i digress, war sucks, especially when its targeted on a group of people and not a nation.

Agreed. War sucks period.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I thought that by now the Israeli army would come to it's senses, but Israel is still refusing to provide maps to the cluster bombs the Israeli army launched into Lebanon during the Summer of 2006 conflict to the UN and Lebanese demining experts!

Last week a British demining expert lost his life due a cluster bomb that killed him instantly as he was sweeping for unexploded Israeli ordanance in the city of Bint Jbeil.

Israel created 23,612 square miles (38,000 square Kilometers ) of cluster bomb infested land!
<Israel dropped 90% of the 4 million cluster bomblets of which only 40% didn't explode on impact during the last 72 hours of the war after the terms of a UN-brokered cease-fire had been agreed upon!

So in the final 72 hours after the agreement they squeezed in all they had, and a year after the conflict, after the Lebanese Army and the UN peace forces immediately created a buffer zone in the entirely of southern Lebanon, the Israeli army still refuses to hand over maps of the locations they dropped these bombs on that have put the agricultural activity in the south to a stand still while they kill civilians.

A reasonable person can arrive at only one conclusion, Israel purposely targeted Lebanese civilians with these hellish cluster bombs that are causing amputations and deaths and huge economical losses to Lebanese civilians especially children that don't know any better.

Why is the international community and our government staying mostly silent over this with the good exception of human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch which have taken on the honorable task of pointing the finger clearly at Israel's disregard for civilian lives when it comes to this specific issue.

This is intolerable, no matter what reason Israel had during the war to launch these cluster bomblets ( but I think we now have a clear idea) there is no logic that can reasonably explain why Israel should keep withholding such information from those who are trying to save lives and dying in the process too.

Here are some videos about the topic:

Deputy Director of Amnesty International USA Curt Goering on the topic

Living with Cluster Bombs in Lebanon

CNN Report

Daily Star

I have bolded the part of your post that has been a quintessential part of war since man 1st learned the art.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

obviously you have not thought this through.....

YES the killing of civilians was justified. war is war..those civilains kno2wingly allowed hezbollah to infiltrate and blend into there society knowing full well what would ahd did happen!!

Also the way you word that question is very nieve and sanctamonious and crap!

You should have wordrd it more honestly......

Such do you think the killing if civilians who knowingly harbored Hezbollah was justified in order to kill the emeny who was using them as human shields and to hide from the Israeli`s?


Need to think a little more before posting...rofl

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Im honestly just hoping one side nukes the other so i can stop hearing about you guys never getting over your 60 year old squabbles.

I'll go out on a limb and say that I know which side you would be cheering for.

But i digress, war sucks, especially when its targeted on a group of people and not a nation.

I see you're enjoying calculating the tally.

Now how about you stop giving out lectures and inspirational ideas and start presenting some real proofs and true counterarguments for your statements instead?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

obviously you have not thought this through.....

YES the killing of civilians was justified. war is war..those civilains kno2wingly allowed hezbollah to infiltrate and blend into there society knowing full well what would ahd did happen!!

Also the way you word that question is very nieve and sanctamonious and crap!

You should have wordrd it more honestly......

Such do you think the killing if civilians who knowingly harbored Hezbollah was justified in order to kill the emeny who was using them as human shields and to hide from the Israeli`s?


Need to think a little more before posting...rofl

Please prove it to me that at least a considerable number of civilians were harboring those fvcking Hizbollah fighters knowingly, and after you bother yourself to do that how about you help me stop "rofl"ing by addressing the OP instead of arguing with me about stuff that you can't backup?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Oh yes, the poor people of lebanon and hezbollah.

:roll:

Seriously, they use civilians as human shields and israel gets fed up and bombs the fuck out of them anyway. Big shocker.

And they probably dont know where every single bombing run was, they, much like the US, have a bunch of ROE and survellience BS to do before each target is attacked.

So let me get this clear for the record. You think the killing of the civilians in Lebanon though airstrikes and cluster bombs was justified? Yes or No

obviously you have not thought this through.....

YES the killing of civilians was justified. war is war..those civilains kno2wingly allowed hezbollah to infiltrate and blend into there society knowing full well what would ahd did happen!!

Also the way you word that question is very nieve and sanctamonious and crap!

You should have wordrd it more honestly......

Such do you think the killing if civilians who knowingly harbored Hezbollah was justified in order to kill the emeny who was using them as human shields and to hide from the Israeli`s?


Need to think a little more before posting...rofl

Please prove it to me that at least a considerable number of civilians were harboring those fvcking Hizbollah fighters knowingly, and after you bother yourself to do that how about you help me stop "rofl"ing by addressing the OP instead of arguing with me about stuff that you can't backup?

Your even denser than I thought.....
It`s pretty obvoious when they are using your front yard to launch rockets .........duh.....common that was way too easy!!

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
...
Your even denser than I thought.....
...

Coming from a guy that barely knows how to spell, I'll take my chances

 

[maluckey]

Ok,

After reading all the propaganda and watching the political talking points I come to the conclusion of confusion.

UNMACC claims X percent of bombs are infesting X square meters, but because Israel won't cooperate they can't remove ordinance.

Is anyone else thinking that if Israel is not cooperating, HOW did they (UNMACC) get their numbers in the first place?

So Israel gives numbers and general location of bombing locations to UNMACC (how else would UNMACC know the numbers of bombs dropped?), and UNMACC claims that Israel tended to use the SAME location multiple times (how do they know without Israel telling them?). After having given UNMACC general information, UNMACC claims the Israelis are hampering HMA efforts, then in the same breath says that by the end of 2008, 90 percent of affected areas will be cleared.

Can someone explain this?

 

[Jhhnn]

I wouldn't expect the Israelis to cooperate, given that deployment of said ordnance didn't occur until after a ceasefire had been brokered. The deployment was clearly designed to discourage anybody from returning to the area, so helping find and disarm the bomblets would be counter-productive to their purposes... It's kinda like a minefield...

UNMACC is just estimating, Maluckey- Israeli cooperation would help them move more expeditiously towards disarming the ordnance- no chance of that...

 

[Harabec]

Well, that is indeed interesting.
One possible explanation is the simple idea of "why would we?"

From the POV of the other side, I can see the logic ("right" or "wrong", that is a different matter) in dropping those munitions as a way of clearing those areas in the future, once we're done with the official bombing.
Therefor it is to our "advantage" that these munitions be left in the area.

However, that is a bit short-sighted (typical of military decisions in every nation) and assumes we will never go there again, whether as a military force or civilian trade (that'd be the day...heh).

I don't try to make sense of anything in the middle east anymore, though. It simply does not exist...