Israel / Gaza Thread

Page 28 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Borealis7
Freedom Fighters! get yer red hot Freedom Fighters riiight here

WARNING! Disturbing video. HAMAS KILL FATAH IN GAZA

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men. Maybe if some people who are still convinced that Israel is unjustified in going into Gaza, this will show them why. Now, not to make a mistake, the Fatah is a terror organization as well, and both are Israels enemies.. Both murder Jews in terror attacks only disagree on pace of extermination. However, the reason I am showing this video is to show the savageness of these Monsters, because if they do this to their own brother Arabs, just think what they would do to Jews!

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: Borealis7
Freedom Fighters! get yer red hot Freedom Fighters riiight here

WARNING! Disturbing video. HAMAS KILL FATAH IN GAZA

This is very hard to watch. These are Fatah men bound, face down like dogs, then machine gunned over and over by Hamas men. Maybe if some people who are still convinced that Israel is unjustified in going into Gaza, this will show them why. Now, not to make a mistake, the Fatah is a terror organization as well, and both are Israels enemies.. Both murder Jews in terror attacks only disagree on pace of extermination. However, the reason I am showing this video is to show the savageness of these Monsters, because if they do this to their own brother Arabs, just think what they would do to Jews!

http://www.viddler.com/explore/buggie/videos/3/

Well, maybe Israel could drop a bomb on a school then to show them who is boss.

Since you talk the talk so much, why isn't your cowardly ass over there?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
hey...you already know that there are 2 sides to every story.....
so lets take a look at the actual 100% true facts.....

You state -- As for the Arab nations declaring war on Israel upon it's foundation, see the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians ran out of the region by Israeli militias in the months prior, during the execution of Plan Dalet.

yet other sources say -- the palestinians left of there own accord.....

Also depending on who you are quoting Paln dalet has been grossly over stated or under stated.....

You should know that one of the huge probleems with this whole Israeli/Palestinian thing is that there has been so much bull crap thrown around that the actual factual truth has been lost in all the bull shit!

I am quoting historic records compiled from an abundance of documentation from the time,

The "other sources" you mention ignore that historical record in favor of an explanation they find more convenient.

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Whose right....whose wrong......
Why does there have to be a right or a wrong?

We need to move beyond the bull shit in order to find a common ground!!
Peace!!

I only brought up the facts I'm mentioned because someone else was ignoring them, to cast all the blame to one side in an attempt to justify Israel's ongoing colonization of Palestine. We have to work past such misconception in order to reach common ground.

Originally posted by: poohbear

how can u say such nonsense? u think a 25th generation German jew in the early 20th century...

Most of the early colonists were actually Russian, and then there were others from various parts of Europe. That played a big part in the establishment of modern Hebrew, as all those disparate people needed a common language, and of course they had no interest in adapting to the existing Arabic culture there.
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
2
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Most of the early colonists were actually Russian, and then there were others from various parts of Europe. That played a big part in the establishment of modern Hebrew, as all those disparate people needed a common language, and of course they had no interest in adapting to the existing Arabic culture there.

Along with the bastardization of Hebrew; the only people left who can speak it properly are Arabs!
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
There are still anti-Zionist orthodox Jews who keep to Biblical Hebrew, and consider modern Hebrew an affront to God.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,330
17
76
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
For an early example of Israel's attempt to deny Palestine's right to exist, see the Faisal?Weizmann Agreement of 1919, which was an attempt to secure all of Palestine, and slightly beyond, to become Israel.

As for the Arab nations declaring war on Israel upon it's foundation, see the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians ran out of the region by Israeli militias in the months prior, during the execution of Plan Dalet.

Couple of problems with your reference,
a) leader of an impromptu Zionist Commission?, so like how many people?...1, 2 10, 100? who's to say this is reflected by Jews period?
b) i dont see reference to the Jews wanting to destroy the Palestinians. In fact, it was Faisal who detested the Palestinians and the agreement was for co-cooperation to develop the whole of the land.
c) A 2 month agreement?, come on, if I sign such an agreement, does that make it binding for all!

Edit - And lastly, it was the Arab nations to told the Palestinians to leave as the planned to level Israel! More lies Snowman, where will you stop?
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,330
17
76
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Most of the early colonists were actually Russian, and then there were others from various parts of Europe. That played a big part in the establishment of modern Hebrew, as all those disparate people needed a common language, and of course they had no interest in adapting to the existing Arabic culture there.

Along with the bastardization of Hebrew; the only people left who can speak it properly are Arabs!


LMAO!, right!
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,488
2
0
Originally posted by: SolMiester
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Most of the early colonists were actually Russian, and then there were others from various parts of Europe. That played a big part in the establishment of modern Hebrew, as all those disparate people needed a common language, and of course they had no interest in adapting to the existing Arabic culture there.

Along with the bastardization of Hebrew; the only people left who can speak it properly are Arabs!


LMAO!, right!

Yes, very right, and not funny either.

"In modern Israeli Hebrew, the historical phonemes of the letters ?et ? (/h/) and Khaf ? (/x/) merged, both becoming the voiceless uvular fricative ([?]).
In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the letter Khet usually has the sound value of a voiceless uvular fricative (/?/), due to European influence. It may also be pronounced as a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (/h/) among Mizrahim (especially among the older generation and popular Mizrahi singers), in accordance with oriental Jewish traditions."

I've yet to meet anyone who wasn't Arab that could properly pronounce Het. Also from Wiki, on the Arabic equivalent of the proper pronunciation, the letter "Ha."

"The ability to pronounce ?a? correctly is often used as a shibboleth to distinguish Arabic-speakers from non-Arabic-speakers; in particular, pronunciation of the letter as a voiceless velar fricative IPA: [x] is seen as a hallmark of Ashkenazi Jews and Greeks."
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: SolMiester
Couple of problems with your reference,
a) leader of an impromptu Zionist Commission?, so like how many people?...1, 2 10, 100? who's to say this is reflected by Jews period?
b) i dont see reference to the Jews wanting to destroy the Palestinians. In fact, it was Faisal who detested the Palestinians and the agreement was for co-cooperation to develop the whole of the land.
c) A 2 month agreement?, come on, if I sign such an agreement, does that make it binding for all!

Chaim Weizmann was a prominent leader of the Jewish nationalist movement, far from the only one calling for Israel to cover all of Palestine and beyond, and the results speak for themselves.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
Edit - And lastly, it was the Arab nations to told the Palestinians to leave as the planned to level Israel!

The radio transcripts and newspapers of the time show no such calls were made, and the claim that Arab nations were sitting back planing to attack as Palestinians fled is not only absurd on it's face, but in direct contradiction to historical records of Israeli militias' planing and execution of Plan Dalet.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
More lies Snowman, where will you stop?

The history I am talking about is well documented, and your hostile and fleeting arguments towards those facts clearly demonstrate you have been mislead to justify Israel's ongoing conquest over what little is left of Palestine. Of course it is your choice to cling to propaganda in denial of history, but you are the one lying to yourself here.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: SolMiester
Couple of problems with your reference,
a) leader of an impromptu Zionist Commission?, so like how many people?...1, 2 10, 100? who's to say this is reflected by Jews period?
b) i dont see reference to the Jews wanting to destroy the Palestinians. In fact, it was Faisal who detested the Palestinians and the agreement was for co-cooperation to develop the whole of the land.
c) A 2 month agreement?, come on, if I sign such an agreement, does that make it binding for all!

Chaim Weizmann was a prominent leader of the Jewish nationalist movement, far from the only one calling for Israel to cover all of Palestine and beyond, and the results speak for themselves.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
Edit - And lastly, it was the Arab nations to told the Palestinians to leave as the planned to level Israel!

The radio transcripts and newspapers of the time show no such calls were made, and the claim that Arab nations were sitting back planing to attack as Palestinians fled is not only absurd on it's face, but in direct contradiction to historical records of Israeli militias' planing and execution of Plan Dalet.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
More lies Snowman, where will you stop?

The history I am talking about is well documented, and your hostile and fleeting arguments towards those facts clearly demonstrate you have been mislead to justify Israel's ongoing conquest over what little is left of Palestine. Of course it is your choice to cling to propaganda in denial of history, but you are the one lying to yourself here.

id like to see the document where the the arab nations did NOT say to the palestinians, leave now so we can get your homes back. I want 5 accredited sources that are not any arably ran.



secondly

There are still anti-Zionist orthodox Jews who keep to Biblical Hebrew, and consider modern Hebrew an affront to God.

while this is true, there are those kind of people. but every religion has its own radical, in the case of Judaism, the number is small, a usually never spoken about people, and should not even be a factor in this debate because the number is that small

in the case of Islam, the majority can be considered radical, because they follow the lines of the Koran and other Islamic writings saying jews and christians are bad and must be killed.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Freshgeardude dude tries to sell the absurd with "while this is true, there are those kind of people. but every religion has its own radical, in the case of Judaism, the number is small, a usually never spoken about people, and should not even be a factor in this debate because the number is that small

in the case of Islam, the majority can be considered radical, because they follow the lines of the Koran and other Islamic writings saying jews and christians are bad and must be killed."

Or so correct in a pig's eye.

Which disguises the real problem, moderates on all sides have been totally driven out of the political process by the extremists on all sides. And that is indeed a sad and sorry poisonous mix. Which can only justify unspeakable acts by all sides, and make any just solution impossible.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Freshgeardude dude tries to sell the absurd with "while this is true, there are those kind of people. but every religion has its own radical, in the case of Judaism, the number is small, a usually never spoken about people, and should not even be a factor in this debate because the number is that small

in the case of Islam, the majority can be considered radical, because they follow the lines of the Koran and other Islamic writings saying jews and christians are bad and must be killed."

Or so correct in a pig's eye.

Which disguises the real problem, moderates on all sides have been totally driven out of the political process by the extremists on all sides. And that is indeed a sad and sorry poisonous mix. Which can only justify unspeakable acts by all sides, and make any just solution impossible.

if I read that correctly, you are calling jews and christian pigs, which makes me believe you are islamic and ofcourse will agree with what you have been studying your entire life
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Freshgeardude dude tries to sell the absurd with "while this is true, there are those kind of people. but every religion has its own radical, in the case of Judaism, the number is small, a usually never spoken about people, and should not even be a factor in this debate because the number is that small

in the case of Islam, the majority can be considered radical, because they follow the lines of the Koran and other Islamic writings saying jews and christians are bad and must be killed."

Or so correct in a pig's eye.

Which disguises the real problem, moderates on all sides have been totally driven out of the political process by the extremists on all sides. And that is indeed a sad and sorry poisonous mix. Which can only justify unspeakable acts by all sides, and make any just solution impossible.

if I read that correctly, you are calling jews and christian pigs, which makes me believe you are islamic and ofcourse will agree with what you have been studying your entire life
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong again Freshgeardude, if you think this latest Israeli incursion into Gaza is going to solve anything, you understand nothing. Just more of the same since 1948 and before, and for the record, I live in the USA, I am basically a devout atheists, believe in the right of the State of Israel to exists, but as an American, I have an external standard of fairness, and am comfortable in believing all sides are very wrong.

Once you reach that level of enlightenment, you too can start asking how how do we now solve this conflict fairly? Once you discard your own biases, the truth can set you free. Until then, you are just more extraneous noise shedding heat but no light.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
If Israel allowed independent journalists into Gaza, "biased propaganda" would be easily called out as such (maybe?). Until then...

Claims have been received by the BBC and an Israeli human rights group that Israeli troops have fired on Gaza residents trying to escape the conflict area. Israel has strongly denied the allegations.


BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims.


Some Palestinian civilians in Gaza say Israeli forces shot at them as they tried to leave their homes - in some cases bearing white flags.

One testimony heard by the BBC and human rights group B'tselem describes Israeli forces shooting a woman in the head after she stepped out of her house carrying a piece of white cloth, in response to an Israeli loudhailer announcement.

The Israeli military has dismissed the report as "without foundation".

The BBC has spoken to members of another family who say they are trapped in their home by fighting and have been shot at when they tried to leave to replenish dwindling water and food supplies, even during the three-hour humanitarian lull.

Israel is denying access to Gaza for international journalists and human rights monitors, so it is not possible to verify the accounts.

B'tselem said it had been unable to corroborate the testimony it had received, but felt it should be made public.

'Home destroyed'

Munir Shafik al-Najar, of Khouza village in the south-east of the Gaza Strip, told B'tselem and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) of a series of events on Monday which he said left four members of his extended family dead.

He told the BBC that some 75 members of his extended family had ended up huddled in a house, surrounded by Israeli forces, after troops shelled the area and destroyed his brother's home on Sunday night.

On Monday morning, he said the family heard an announcement over a loudspeaker.

"The Israeli army was saying: 'This is the Israeli Defence Forces, we are asking all the people to leave their homes and go to the school. Ladies first, then men.'

"We decided to send the women first, two by two," he said.

First to step outside was the wife of his cousin, Rawhiya al-Najar, 48.

"The army was about 15 metres (50 feet) away from the house or less. They shot her in the head," he said.

The woman's daughter was shot in the thigh but crawled back inside the house, he said.


For several hours, the family telephoned the Red Crescent, human rights organisations and Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah in the hope of co-ordinating safe passage to evacuate people injured in the earlier shelling, Mr Najar said.

Several hours later, no help had arrived.

"We decided that's it, we're going to die, we are [going] to run and all die at once," he said.

"When we did that they started shooting with heavy ammunition from a machine gun on top of a tank," he said.

All the adults carried white flags, he said, adding that he was still grasping a piece of white cloth as he spoke over the telephone a day later.

Three of his relatives, Muhammad Salman al-Najar, 54, Ahmad Jum'a al-Najar, 27, and Khalil Hamdan al-Najar, 80, were killed, he said.

The troops "knew this man was an old man," he said, because they were so close.

B'tselem says it is working to corroborate the account.

Similar account

A second family member, Riad Zaki al-Najar, gave the BBC a similar account by telephone.

"They told us you all have to go to the centre of the town, where the school is.

"We put the women first, and we put our children on our shoulders, with white bandanas on their heads.

"When we were walking, with the women first, they saw soldiers and they started to shout to them, to tell them 'we have children, we have children'. They started to shoot us. My aunt was killed with a bullet in her head."


The BBC also spoke to Marwan Abu Rida, a paramedic with the Palestinian Red Crescent, who says he was called to the site at 0810 local time (0610 GMT).

But he says he came under fire as he tried to reach it, and was trapped in a house nearby until 2000 (1800 GMT) because of Israeli shooting.

He said that when he reached the location he found the dead woman, Rawhiya, who appeared to have been shot in the head, as well as the younger woman who was injured.

In a written response to the incident, the Israeli military said: "An initial inquiry into the allegation raised by B'tselem has concluded that the claims are without foundation.

"The IDF goes to great lengths to avoid harming Palestinians uninvolved in combat and reiterates that it is Hamas that chooses to launch its attacks against Israeli towns from within civilian areas."

'Fired upon'

The account bears similarities to another received by B'tselem, from Yusef Abu Hajaj, a resident of Juhar al-Dik, south of Gaza City.

He told B'tselem his mother and sister were shot as they tried to flee their home bearing a white banner, in a group of people including small children.

He said an Israeli tank had fired at their house, and they had heard the Israeli military was urging civilians to leave their homes, so had tried to flee.

The ICRC has repeatedly stressed that it is having difficulty reaching families stranded by the fighting, often including injured people and dead bodies.

Its Gaza spokesman, Iyad Nasser, said ambulance crews were struggling to respond to "tens" of calls from areas they still had not gained sufficient access to.

The head of one such family, Daoud Shtewi, told the BBC by telephone that he and 35 members of his family had been trapped in their home, surrounded by Israeli forces, in Zeitoun, a south-eastern suburb of Gaza City, for 10 days.

"We can't even look through the windows because we get fired on," Mr Shtewi said.

"We tried to get water from the neighbours because our tanks are running dry. We are also running out of food and have been without electricity for more than 12 days.

"My mother and father need medicines for high blood pressure and diabetes. We have run out."

The area, known to house Palestinian militants, has been the scene of some of the heaviest clashes during Israel's operation in Gaza.

It is one of several that Palestinian Red Crescent convoys have been struggling to reach.

Three-hour ceasefire

It was also the place where the ICRC said it found four small children who had waited with their dead mothers, apparently with no food or water, for four days last week.

Mr Shtewi said 17 children - aged between six weeks and 15 years, and six women, were in the house in the west of the neighbourhood.

"We have tried to leave the house during the three-hour humanitarian ceasefire, but we got shot at," he said.

He said the family had repeatedly tried to contact the PRC.

Aid agencies say the Gaza Strip is facing a humanitarian crisis


An ambulance driver with the PRC told the BBC he had received details of a family of 35 people in the location concerned.

But he said it was a closed military zone, that the ambulance workers had not been able to secure co-ordination with the Israeli military to reach it, and were planning to go there as soon as they could secure safe passage with the military.

Israeli military spokesman Jacob Dallal said Hamas was launching rockets from the area in question, and was using civilians' houses - "exactly these types of homes" - to fire rockets from.

"Especially people who try to move out, those could well be - as they have repeatedly been - Hamas people trying to sneak up and fire on the soldiers. If you look from the soldiers' perspective it's exceptionally difficult - you don't know who's behind that door."

He said that Hamas "specifically uses the lull as a time to fire", and Israeli forces fire back if they are fired upon during that period.

And he added that the military was working with international agencies to try to facilitate safe passage for ambulances and the transport of aid amid the fighting.




Why doesn't Israel allow any journalists or outside aid agencies to enter Gaza immediately expose this "blatant propagandist claims of atrocities?"

According to the most intellectual and well-informed people on P&N, these are anti-semitic propaganda franchises:

BBC
ABC
CBS
CNN
NBC
NYT

Where do I go to read unbiased, accurate reporting about the conflict?

HELP PLZ.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Freshgeardude dude tries to sell the absurd with "while this is true, there are those kind of people. but every religion has its own radical, in the case of Judaism, the number is small, a usually never spoken about people, and should not even be a factor in this debate because the number is that small

in the case of Islam, the majority can be considered radical, because they follow the lines of the Koran and other Islamic writings saying jews and christians are bad and must be killed."

Or so correct in a pig's eye.

Which disguises the real problem, moderates on all sides have been totally driven out of the political process by the extremists on all sides. And that is indeed a sad and sorry poisonous mix. Which can only justify unspeakable acts by all sides, and make any just solution impossible.

if I read that correctly, you are calling jews and christian pigs, which makes me believe you are islamic and ofcourse will agree with what you have been studying your entire life
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong again Freshgeardude, if you think this latest Israeli incursion into Gaza is going to solve anything, you understand nothing. Just more of the same since 1948 and before, and for the record, I live in the USA, I am basically a devout atheists, believe in the right of the State of Israel to exists, but as an American, I have an external standard of fairness, and am comfortable in believing all sides are very wrong.

Once you reach that level of enlightenment, you too can start asking how how do we now solve this conflict fairly? Once you discard your own biases, the truth can set you free. Until then, you are just more extraneous noise shedding heat but no light.

thats your problem, you always think both sides are aggressors. tell me how long would it take the US to respond on an attack from mexico or canada ie rocket or mortar shell. not very long. israel dealt with them for 8 years, over 6000 missiles.

Israel in not here to overrule gaza nor destroy them all. they solely and have repeatedly said they are only trying to stop the missile attacks on their country.

when you learn this and stop being stupid enough to fall for arab propaganda, then you will see how bad it is.

oh and by the way, last I read it was 13 israelis dead compared to 900 ish palestinians? looks better than wars before. Israel is playing it safer now, and it shows.

oh and honestly if anyone tries to tell me most of that 900 were civilians you can basically tell a wall that because it is false.

as long as a people let evil rule them, they are as much as fault as the people who fire the missiles. ontop of staying in a building which is being used to fire missiles on, have received a phone call telling them to leave, pamphlets dropped all over for them to read, and obviously actual attacks happening now

 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Originally posted by: fallout man
If Israel allowed independent journalists into Gaza, "biased propaganda" would be easily called out as such (maybe?). Until then...

Claims have been received by the BBC and an Israeli human rights group that Israeli troops have fired on Gaza residents trying to escape the conflict area. Israel has strongly denied the allegations.


BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims.


Some Palestinian civilians in Gaza say Israeli forces shot at them as they tried to leave their homes - in some cases bearing white flags.

One testimony heard by the BBC and human rights group B'tselem describes Israeli forces shooting a woman in the head after she stepped out of her house carrying a piece of white cloth, in response to an Israeli loudhailer announcement.

The Israeli military has dismissed the report as "without foundation".

The BBC has spoken to members of another family who say they are trapped in their home by fighting and have been shot at when they tried to leave to replenish dwindling water and food supplies, even during the three-hour humanitarian lull.

Israel is denying access to Gaza for international journalists and human rights monitors, so it is not possible to verify the accounts.

B'tselem said it had been unable to corroborate the testimony it had received, but felt it should be made public.

'Home destroyed'

Munir Shafik al-Najar, of Khouza village in the south-east of the Gaza Strip, told B'tselem and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) of a series of events on Monday which he said left four members of his extended family dead.

He told the BBC that some 75 members of his extended family had ended up huddled in a house, surrounded by Israeli forces, after troops shelled the area and destroyed his brother's home on Sunday night.

On Monday morning, he said the family heard an announcement over a loudspeaker.

"The Israeli army was saying: 'This is the Israeli Defence Forces, we are asking all the people to leave their homes and go to the school. Ladies first, then men.'

"We decided to send the women first, two by two," he said.

First to step outside was the wife of his cousin, Rawhiya al-Najar, 48.

"The army was about 15 metres (50 feet) away from the house or less. They shot her in the head," he said.

The woman's daughter was shot in the thigh but crawled back inside the house, he said.


For several hours, the family telephoned the Red Crescent, human rights organisations and Palestinian Authority officials in Ramallah in the hope of co-ordinating safe passage to evacuate people injured in the earlier shelling, Mr Najar said.

Several hours later, no help had arrived.

"We decided that's it, we're going to die, we are [going] to run and all die at once," he said.

"When we did that they started shooting with heavy ammunition from a machine gun on top of a tank," he said.

All the adults carried white flags, he said, adding that he was still grasping a piece of white cloth as he spoke over the telephone a day later.

Three of his relatives, Muhammad Salman al-Najar, 54, Ahmad Jum'a al-Najar, 27, and Khalil Hamdan al-Najar, 80, were killed, he said.

The troops "knew this man was an old man," he said, because they were so close.

B'tselem says it is working to corroborate the account.

Similar account

A second family member, Riad Zaki al-Najar, gave the BBC a similar account by telephone.

"They told us you all have to go to the centre of the town, where the school is.

"We put the women first, and we put our children on our shoulders, with white bandanas on their heads.

"When we were walking, with the women first, they saw soldiers and they started to shout to them, to tell them 'we have children, we have children'. They started to shoot us. My aunt was killed with a bullet in her head."


The BBC also spoke to Marwan Abu Rida, a paramedic with the Palestinian Red Crescent, who says he was called to the site at 0810 local time (0610 GMT).

But he says he came under fire as he tried to reach it, and was trapped in a house nearby until 2000 (1800 GMT) because of Israeli shooting.

He said that when he reached the location he found the dead woman, Rawhiya, who appeared to have been shot in the head, as well as the younger woman who was injured.

In a written response to the incident, the Israeli military said: "An initial inquiry into the allegation raised by B'tselem has concluded that the claims are without foundation.

"The IDF goes to great lengths to avoid harming Palestinians uninvolved in combat and reiterates that it is Hamas that chooses to launch its attacks against Israeli towns from within civilian areas."

'Fired upon'

The account bears similarities to another received by B'tselem, from Yusef Abu Hajaj, a resident of Juhar al-Dik, south of Gaza City.

He told B'tselem his mother and sister were shot as they tried to flee their home bearing a white banner, in a group of people including small children.

He said an Israeli tank had fired at their house, and they had heard the Israeli military was urging civilians to leave their homes, so had tried to flee.

The ICRC has repeatedly stressed that it is having difficulty reaching families stranded by the fighting, often including injured people and dead bodies.

Its Gaza spokesman, Iyad Nasser, said ambulance crews were struggling to respond to "tens" of calls from areas they still had not gained sufficient access to.

The head of one such family, Daoud Shtewi, told the BBC by telephone that he and 35 members of his family had been trapped in their home, surrounded by Israeli forces, in Zeitoun, a south-eastern suburb of Gaza City, for 10 days.

"We can't even look through the windows because we get fired on," Mr Shtewi said.

"We tried to get water from the neighbours because our tanks are running dry. We are also running out of food and have been without electricity for more than 12 days.

"My mother and father need medicines for high blood pressure and diabetes. We have run out."

The area, known to house Palestinian militants, has been the scene of some of the heaviest clashes during Israel's operation in Gaza.

It is one of several that Palestinian Red Crescent convoys have been struggling to reach.

Three-hour ceasefire

It was also the place where the ICRC said it found four small children who had waited with their dead mothers, apparently with no food or water, for four days last week.

Mr Shtewi said 17 children - aged between six weeks and 15 years, and six women, were in the house in the west of the neighbourhood.

"We have tried to leave the house during the three-hour humanitarian ceasefire, but we got shot at," he said.

He said the family had repeatedly tried to contact the PRC.

Aid agencies say the Gaza Strip is facing a humanitarian crisis


An ambulance driver with the PRC told the BBC he had received details of a family of 35 people in the location concerned.

But he said it was a closed military zone, that the ambulance workers had not been able to secure co-ordination with the Israeli military to reach it, and were planning to go there as soon as they could secure safe passage with the military.

Israeli military spokesman Jacob Dallal said Hamas was launching rockets from the area in question, and was using civilians' houses - "exactly these types of homes" - to fire rockets from.

"Especially people who try to move out, those could well be - as they have repeatedly been - Hamas people trying to sneak up and fire on the soldiers. If you look from the soldiers' perspective it's exceptionally difficult - you don't know who's behind that door."

He said that Hamas "specifically uses the lull as a time to fire", and Israeli forces fire back if they are fired upon during that period.

And he added that the military was working with international agencies to try to facilitate safe passage for ambulances and the transport of aid amid the fighting.




Why doesn't Israel allow any journalists or outside aid agencies to enter Gaza immediately expose this "blatant propagandist claims of atrocities?"

According to the most intellectual and well-informed people on P&N, these are anti-semitic propaganda franchises:

BBC
ABC
CBS
CNN
NBC
NYT

Where do I go to read unbiased, accurate reporting about the conflict?

HELP PLZ.



and to your article, it might have been israel was receiving fire upon them and they did not see these people and some may have accidentally hit them. secondly, as much of an elite army israel is, there have been mistakes in their operations. if you want perfect buy 100 robo cops with amazing accuracy. no one is perfect, its not like friendly fire or attacks on civilians never occur

its a war zone. dont play with fire and expect to not get burned some times.

fox news is usually not biased from what I have seen. jpost also is usually unbiased in what they actually report, though jpost is ran by israelis and tend to show the articles they feel important.
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude

oh and honestly if anyone tries to tell me most of that 900 were civilians you can basically tell a wall that because it is false.

Where did you find the evidence for this? I wish to see it also, my friend. I'll be here praying for Israel until you point me to the correct source I should be reading.

After all, it's likely that all these numbers and the photos are just Pallywood. They have a great makeup and special effects crew. :roll:
 

fallout man

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2007
1,787
1
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude


and to your article, it might have been israel was receiving fire upon them and they did not see these people and some may have accidentally hit them. secondly, as much of an elite army israel is, there have been mistakes in their operations. if you want perfect buy 100 robo cops with amazing accuracy. no one is perfect, its not like friendly fire or attacks on civilians never occur

One of the accounts suggests a woman being shot in the head from ~50 feet away after following IDF orders to exit the home. That does not pass the smell test of an accident.

its a war zone. dont play with fire and expect to not get burned some times.

How are civilians sheltering in a home playing with fire?

fox news is usually not biased from what I have seen.

How can I trust Fox News? They do not have any reporters on the ground in Gaza? Where are they getting their unbiased information?

jpost also is usually unbiased in what they actually report, though jpost is ran by israelis and tend to show the articles they feel important.

Jpost also does not have any reporters in Gaza able to confirm or deny the reports coming from Gaza. I do love their comment section on the articles about the conflict. It's enough to get the most flaccid old neo-con ready for action.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: freshgeardude
id like to see the document where the the arab nations did NOT say to the palestinians, leave now so we can get your homes back. I want 5 accredited sources that are not any arably ran.
I'm not going to go digging sorces for you.

If you want to go searching for evidence to back your clam, then of course you are free to do so. However. I assure you I've gone down that path long ago.

There is no evidence of any such calls occurring in any wide spread fashion, and none during the months prior to Israel's declaration of statehood. On the other hand, there is a wealth of information on Israeli militias' execution of Plan Dalet, and the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians displaced by it.

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
There are still anti-Zionist orthodox Jews who keep to Biblical Hebrew, and consider modern Hebrew an affront to God.

while this is true, there are those kind of people. but every religion has its own radical, in the case of Judaism, the number is small, a usually never spoken about people, and should not even be a factor in this debate because the number is that small

There numbers are small presently, but over the course of the history of diaspora Judaism they are in the vast majority.

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
in the case of Islam, the majority can be considered radical, because they follow the lines of the Koran and other Islamic writings saying jews and christians are bad and must be killed.

Islamic writings say nothing of the sort, which is why many Christians and Jews have lived all across Muslim lands throughout the history of Islam. Furthermore, Qu'ran even says that the Israelites will be gathered from amongst the nations and reunited with the Promised Land, just as Tanakh does. However, Qu'ran says that return shall come peacefully, not though colonizing the land from it's current inhabitants by military or economic force, and that is what Tanakh says as well.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,330
17
76
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: SolMiester
Couple of problems with your reference,
a) leader of an impromptu Zionist Commission?, so like how many people?...1, 2 10, 100? who's to say this is reflected by Jews period?
b) i dont see reference to the Jews wanting to destroy the Palestinians. In fact, it was Faisal who detested the Palestinians and the agreement was for co-cooperation to develop the whole of the land.
c) A 2 month agreement?, come on, if I sign such an agreement, does that make it binding for all!

Chaim Weizmann was a prominent leader of the Jewish nationalist movement, far from the only one calling for Israel to cover all of Palestine and beyond, and the results speak for themselves.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
Edit - And lastly, it was the Arab nations to told the Palestinians to leave as the planned to level Israel!

The radio transcripts and newspapers of the time show no such calls were made, and the claim that Arab nations were sitting back planing to attack as Palestinians fled is not only absurd on it's face, but in direct contradiction to historical records of Israeli militias' planing and execution of Plan Dalet.

Originally posted by: SolMiester
More lies Snowman, where will you stop?

The history I am talking about is well documented, and your hostile and fleeting arguments towards those facts clearly demonstrate you have been mislead to justify Israel's ongoing conquest over what little is left of Palestine. Of course it is your choice to cling to propaganda in denial of history, but you are the one lying to yourself here.

Well, Its obvious to me Snowman, you are better prepared in your propaganda than I am in my knowledge of history, however that my friend counts for nothing in my book and faith.

If you wish to side with people who's religion so easily lets them rear suicide bombers and terrorists, you go ahead and fool yourself. Its not me who will judge you in the end. I am at peace with my view of this conflict, however I do hope it will end soon.

shalom
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The palehorse delusion is and remains the idea that only the Palestinians protests are driving the the anti-Israeli sentiments in the mid-east , when in fact, both the Israeli and surrounding Arabs are somewhat shamelessly using the Palestinians who are more like like pawns than actual players. With the other implied palehorse delusion being the idea if Israel can somehow exterminate the last living Palestinian, Arab acceptance for the State of Israel would be the new reality and a new era of mid-east peace would occur.
Of course those hostilities would still exist; but, at least there would be attribution for any attacks aimed at Israel from outside its borders. I doubt that the rest of the Arab nations will ever be satisfied with an Israeli presence in the region; but Israel can continue to mitigate that hostility by maintaining a superior military and strong alliances with the U.S. and others.

And to frost the cake, palehorse seems to think that a puny State like Israel is capable of using its military superiority to try to occupy a nation like Iran with a 75 to 7 million population advantage, or that surrounding Arab States would sit idly by. In other words, it would go over about as well as your delusions regarding Afghanistan. There is no fool like an old fool.
Where the hell did I say anything about "occupying a nation like Iran"?!? Does your brain play some strange game of Mad Libs with everyone else' posts!? :confused:

Israel is sadly in a box, with a non expanding population, they are far too small to ever even try to secure a buffer zone. And thus, until they can defuse the hatreds they are earning, they will always be assailed on all sides. More a dead end road strategy than a sustainable model for long terms survival.
Your biggest mistake is your assumption that Israel can ever do anything to "defuse the hatreds" of the other ME nations, short of dissolving completely and vacating the premises.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: SolMiester
If you wish to side with people who's religion so easily lets them rear suicide bombers and terrorists, you go ahead and fool yourself. Its not me who will judge you in the end. I am at peace with my view of this conflict, however I do hope it will end soon.
I don't side with the extremists on either end of this conflict, I just want to stop to you nutcases so the rest of us an live in peace.

Your godlessness has got you siding with a mad conquest over Palestine, which kills far more than any suicide bomber, and holds millions under massive oppression.

It is that depravity which turns Muslims against us, they simply turn to Islam to justify their actions as they have little else to arm themselves with.

You on the other hand have the might of great nations to back you, yet cheer on this mad conquest over Palestine instead of working to bring an end to it.

It makes me sick to watch the Hamas extremists call for death to Israel, but I am just as disgusted by people who rally behind Israel and effectively call for death to Palestine such as in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...rnet.org/story/119372/

Now go back and watch that again while imagining they were talking about killing Jews.

Are you too brainwashed by propaganda to see how sick this is?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: SolMiester
If you wish to side with people who's religion so easily lets them rear suicide bombers and terrorists, you go ahead and fool yourself. Its not me who will judge you in the end. I am at peace with my view of this conflict, however I do hope it will end soon.
I don't side with the extremists on either end of this conflict, I just want to stop to you nutcases so the rest of us an live in peace.

Your godlessness has got you siding with a mad conquest over Palestine, which kills far more than any suicide bomber, and holds millions under massive oppression.

It is that depravity which turns Muslims against us, they simply turn to Islam to justify their actions as they have little else to arm themselves with.

You on the other hand have the might of great nations to back you, yet cheer on this mad conquest over Palestine instead of working to bring an end to it.

It makes me sick to watch the Hamas extremists call for death to Israel, but I am just as disgusted by people who rally behind Israel and effectively call for death to Palestine such as in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...rnet.org/story/119372/

Now go back and watch that again while imagining they were talking about killing Jews.

Are you too brainwashed by propaganda to see how sick this is?
Do you agree with the phrase "Death to Hamas!" ?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
I doubt that the rest of the Arab nations will ever be satisfied with an Israeli presence in the region; but Israel can continue to mitigate that hostility by maintaining a superior military and strong alliances with the U.S. and others.

I doubt Israel would have any notable hostility against it now, if only they had allowed an independent state arise from Palestine after they occupied the territories and instead started colonizing them in 1967.

I also doubt 9/11 would have happened if Bill Clinton had made an honest effort to put an end to this madness a Camp David II, rather than simply passing Arafat and Israeli "offer" for Palestinians to forfeit their rights under international law, and agree to exist in a permanent state of subjugation to Israel.

Originally posted by: palehorse
Do you agree with the phrase "Death to Hamas!" ?

I want to bring death to the factors which drive terrorists like Hamas. Killing off Hamas members, along with anyone in their vicinity, while continuing to keep Palestinians caged up like livestock as Israel colonizes their land out from under them, is only making their ideology stronger.