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Israel / Gaza Thread

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Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: irishScott

I'm not surprised at this attack either. When the Prime Minister said "enough is enough" I called it. Whether Israel and Palestine will get anything tangible out of this has yet to be seen.

What you're missing is the political element of the approaching Israeli elections, where the relatively weak Prime Minister is running against a hard right-winger and it benefits him politically to have this attack happen at this time to look better in comparison. But don't let the truth get in the way of your dragging our the cliches to justify all such attacks, again.

For the sake of argument, *what if* the primary motivation for this attack was the election - how many strong supported using those cliches would condemn that?

I susepct a few would, and many others would just fit it in, that all the justifications are still legitimate, and so on and so on, because of their bias.

It would be *very* uncomortable for people to admit they had backed something terribly immoral, and many simply wouldn't admit it. They do like the comfortable little story they've built up so carefully for so long on why bascially every Israeli action is right, and are not going to begin to give it up without a lot more than that.

If you could conclusively prove that the invasion was entirely (or even considerably) due to the election, I and I imagine most people would be shouting down the Israeli PM right now. Just look at Iraq when we didn't find WMDs.

OK, let's look at Iraq when we didn't find WMD's. It had no impact on our policy, and the president and the war supporters both said the war was justified regardless.

In other words, the *enormous* accountability people thought existed when the assurances were given, when it seemed it would a a *huge* Watergate-level deal if not larger should there not be WMD, turned out to be a minor political event, with the president re-elected soon after the lack of WMD was determined. There *should* be more accountability.

Sure you're right; there are fanatics and morons who just basically say "credo Israel" and let it go at that, but that element has been present in every social group since the dawn of hunter-gatherer societies. Thankfully it is generally a minority in the modern West (or more of a minority than it used to be).

I think there are a lot of people who follow that without realizing it. They think they're 'fair', but somehow always end up excusing one side.

There were no shortage of people here in P&N who said sincerely that if no WMD were found they'd eat their hats, figuratively, and almost to a person, that changed.

In all likelihood, the upcoming election did play a role in the decision to attack now, but it was the Hamas rockets that were the catalyst. Hamas is also an organization openly dedicated to the complete and utter destruction of Israel. It is thus a threat to Israel's national security, and this conflict/invasion/reoccupation was IMO inevitable. The election just pushed the issue a little.

You're displaying the very behavior here I'm talking about- rather than say you don't know how much of a role the election played, you pick a minimal role favorable to Israel and say you believe that's the role it played. You are spinning for them, and I don't think you even reaalize it.

I've discussed elsewhere the whole 'unlimited license for violence' issue the other justitifcations you raise involve so I'll leave that point out.

Don't miss the larger point I was making about how bias works by getting caught up in the specific example about the role of elections here.

The larger issue was not whether the example is correct, but how the supporters of that side would react in many cases if it were.

It's funny, back when the USSR fell, I suspected that our foreign policy rhetoric would shift to the 'terrorist', as our major state enemy was gone; suddenly all those attacks on what evil government can do could hit a tlittle too close to home, and it was time to demonize our most likely new enemies as we went around making some new enemies. We could hardly affor for our public to be making comparisons to abused people and our founding fathers; we needed to have the stereotypical 'terrorist' ready to label anyone with, and people conditioned to oppose anyone with that label. I think that's largely what happened. Of course, when it was the Afghan radical Islamicists we wer earmining fighting the USSR, the word terrorist did not apply, it was all about freedom fighters.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: irishScott
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: irishScott

I'm not surprised at this attack either. When the Prime Minister said "enough is enough" I called it. Whether Israel and Palestine will get anything tangible out of this has yet to be seen.

What you're missing is the political element of the approaching Israeli elections, where the relatively weak Prime Minister is running against a hard right-winger and it benefits him politically to have this attack happen at this time to look better in comparison. But don't let the truth get in the way of your dragging our the cliches to justify all such attacks, again.

For the sake of argument, *what if* the primary motivation for this attack was the election - how many strong supported using those cliches would condemn that?

I susepct a few would, and many others would just fit it in, that all the justifications are still legitimate, and so on and so on, because of their bias.

It would be *very* uncomortable for people to admit they had backed something terribly immoral, and many simply wouldn't admit it. They do like the comfortable little story they've built up so carefully for so long on why bascially every Israeli action is right, and are not going to begin to give it up without a lot more than that.

If you could conclusively prove that the invasion was entirely (or even considerably) due to the election, I and I imagine most people would be shouting down the Israeli PM right now. Just look at Iraq when we didn't find WMDs.

OK, let's look at Iraq when we didn't find WMD's. It had no impact on our policy, and the president and the war supporters both said the war was justified regardless.

In other words, the *enormous* accountability people thought existed when the assurances were given, when it seemed it would a a *huge* Watergate-level deal if not larger should there not be WMD, turned out to be a minor political event, with the president re-elected soon after the lack of WMD was determined. There *should* be more accountability.

Sure you're right; there are fanatics and morons who just basically say "credo Israel" and let it go at that, but that element has been present in every social group since the dawn of hunter-gatherer societies. Thankfully it is generally a minority in the modern West (or more of a minority than it used to be).

I think there are a lot of people who follow that without realizing it. They think they're 'fair', but somehow always end up excusing one side.

There were no shortage of people here in P&N who said sincerely that if no WMD were found they'd eat their hats, figuratively, and almost to a person, that changed.

In all likelihood, the upcoming election did play a role in the decision to attack now, but it was the Hamas rockets that were the catalyst. Hamas is also an organization openly dedicated to the complete and utter destruction of Israel. It is thus a threat to Israel's national security, and this conflict/invasion/reoccupation was IMO inevitable. The election just pushed the issue a little.

You're displaying the very behavior here I'm talking about- rather than say you don't know how much of a role the election played, you pick a minimal role favorable to Israel and say you believe that's the role it played. You are spinning for them, and I don't think you even reaalize it.

I've discussed elsewhere the whole 'unlimited license for violence' issue the other justitifcations you raise involve so I'll leave that point out.

Don't miss the larger point I was making about how bias works by getting caught up in the specific example about the role of elections here.

The larger issue was not whether the example is correct, but how the supporters of that side would react in many cases if it were.

It's funny, back when the USSR fell, I suspected that our foreign policy rhetoric would shift to the 'terrorist', as our major state enemy was gone; suddenly all those attacks on what evil government can do could hit a tlittle too close to home, and it was time to demonize our most likely new enemies as we went around making some new enemies. We could hardly affor for our public to be making comparisons to abused people and our founding fathers; we needed to have the stereotypical 'terrorist' ready to label anyone with, and people conditioned to oppose anyone with that label. I think that's largely what happened. Of course, when it was the Afghan radical Islamicists we wer earmining fighting the USSR, the word terrorist did not apply, it was all about freedom fighters.

1. No change in policy at the tip of a hat, no. Everything from Congress to the Nation was split and canceled each other out. The right made sure that Bush couldn't be impeached, and the left got pissed to the point of absurdity. The moderates didn't have enough unity or clout to get anything productive done, as usual. Bush was re-elected because he was better than Kerry. No other reason IMO. Now Obama won by a vast majority, and the 2006 senate vote was something of a "protest vote" in the sense that the Democrats picked up more seats.

2. There's no shortage of idiots in any internet forum. Especially those devoted to politics.

3. Looking at the issue objectively, this conflict was IMO inevitable without the election as a factor. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the election played a minimal role. The most it could have done was step up the time table. If that's the case, welcome to world politics since the paleolithic era. Not that I agree with it, but the very definition of "politics" generally involves some sort of corruption.

4. I think you've warped reality into pseudo-1984. Propaganda, like corruption, has existed since day one. It works on people who lack critical thought. Same story with political ads. However, with the advent of the internet and greater access to information, this is thankfully a trend in decline. I don't see anyone on our "axis of evil" who doesn't qualify, by their deeds, as terrorist or worse by any objective standards.
Likewise I don't see our populace as "conditioned", just "generally lacking in critical thought". However, that trend is in decline, so I'm optimistic.

Besides, even before the internet people were hardly "conditioned". In an Orwellian universe, do you think all of the protests during the Vietnam war would have been allowed? Or Nixon impeached? Or *insert many other historical examples*.

The only way we could still be "conditioned" at this point is if everything we see and hear is being controlled with a purpose. Anything's possible I guess, but we'd basically have to be in the Matrix. I find that extremely unlikely.
 
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: SandEagle
picture #2 and #4 speak for themselves: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7809755.stm

#2: incendiary phosphorous weapons against civilian populations is a violation of the Geneva Conventions
#4: compare that to the tiny Qassams. a disproportionate show of force indeed, paid for with our tax dollars

Never again, unless you're Palestinian

Where do you see incendiary weapons in #2?

It's not #2 (BBC photo sites get updated).

See the strange octopus-like smoke trail thing in one of the photos? That's a WP round that detonated deliberately above ground to cover a large area. If you've watched any news with live/recorded footage of Gaza in the past 12 hours, you will have seen many times what this WP ordinance looks like at night above Gaza city--it's beautiful.

It's also a war-crime, given that Gaza is anything but a non-civillian population center, and using chemical/incendiary weapons on civillian population centers is a war crime.

We (the US) used WP in Fallujah on civillians with devastating results as well. It was explained away with mumbo-jumbo about how WP is not really chemical warfare. :roll:
 
Originally posted by: fallout man
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: SandEagle
picture #2 and #4 speak for themselves: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7809755.stm

#2: incendiary phosphorous weapons against civilian populations is a violation of the Geneva Conventions
#4: compare that to the tiny Qassams. a disproportionate show of force indeed, paid for with our tax dollars

Never again, unless you're Palestinian

Where do you see incendiary weapons in #2?

It's not #2 (BBC photo sites get updated).

See the strange octopus-like smoke trail thing in one of the photos? That's a WP round that detonated deliberately above ground to cover a large area. If you've watched any news with live/recorded footage of Gaza in the past 12 hours, you will have seen many times what this WP ordinance looks like at night above Gaza city--it's beautiful.

It's also a war-crime, given that Gaza is anything but a non-civillian population center, and using chemical/incendiary weapons on civillian population centers is a war crime.

We (the US) used WP in Fallujah on civillians with devastating results as well. It was explained away with mumbo-jumbo about how WP is not really chemical warfare. :roll:

Huh, thanks! I've been watching live coverage of the bombings online, and figured that they were firing flares for some reason (Hamas sure as fuck doesn't have any ordinance that can target aircraft). That's fucking despicable...
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Ehh, If Canda or Mexico were lobbing rockets into the US, you guys would go apeshit if the government just stood by idly. If Palestine doesnt want to get pancaked, dont toss bombs at the big bully.

And Europe is 1. a bunch of wusses and 2. full of Muslims, of course they're going to try and not piss of the Muslims in their own countries.


edit: looks like Obama agrees with me, "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," he said. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."


Obama rocks 🙂


The full quote

[Obama on the campaign trail]: "The first job of any nation state is to protect its citizens. And so I can assure you that if -- I don't even care if I was a politician -- if somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

Good to hear that Obama agrees that the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against those bloody childmurderers.

 
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Ehh, If Canda or Mexico were lobbing rockets into the US, you guys would go apeshit if the government just stood by idly. If Palestine doesnt want to get pancaked, dont toss bombs at the big bully.

And Europe is 1. a bunch of wusses and 2. full of Muslims, of course they're going to try and not piss of the Muslims in their own countries.


edit: looks like Obama agrees with me, "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that," he said. "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."


Obama rocks 🙂


The full quote

[Obama on the campaign trail]: "The first job of any nation state is to protect its citizens. And so I can assure you that if -- I don't even care if I was a politician -- if somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

Good to hear that Obama agrees that the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against those http://www.belfasttelegraph.co...ir-sleep-14123166.html">bloody childmurderers</a>.

Using an S tag when it should be L. Your link doesn't work right. Proper: bloody childmurderers
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
As was expected, after a week of aerial bombing, the Israeli ground offensive has started.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...04mideast.html?_r=1&hp

At least that is something the Palestinian people can see, rather than a plane or smart bomb that is gone almost before the damage begins, at least its possible to wave a fist at a tank.

The real question is how long will the new occupation of Gaza last, will Israel lose men and tank in the process, and is Israeli intel good enough to tell the difference between the 25,000 or so Hamas fighters, and the 1.5 million innocent civilians. I also wonder if Fatah will be invited by Israel to take over.

But, as Hamas is decimated, so will the social services Hamas used to provide.

The one thing I am fairly sure of, is that when this latest Gaza conflict is "over", it will have done little to change anything, as a 60 year conflict will go merrily along, the hatreds on both sides will be deeper, and little else.

Israel provids the food, medicine and power to Gaza. Hamas "social services" are AK-47's, publishing hate text books, and pilfering Israeli and others aid to top Jihadi's a little less than Fatah did.

Whatever happens, the NSC says, we say, Israel must continue to pressure and weaken Hamas for their own safety.

Ground war is humane way but pretty stupid due to loss of men and materials. Almost as stupid as Hamas launching 10000 missiles into Israel since 2001.
 
Ya know, I know its incredibly morally inconstant and downright silly, but in a pretty strong way I actually favor the Arabs in this conflict. Not because they have a moral argument, but actually because I like rooting for the underdog, and something just doesn't seem fair about a country using the most advanced weapons in the world and backed by the USA blowing the living shit out of a group of dirt poor people using completely outdated technology who don't have a single friend who will actually raise a finger to protect them (a bunch of people TALK alot of shit but nobody actually does anything). Obviously there is no reason to assume the rich powerful nation is morally inferior, but I dunno it all just sort of rubs me wrong even tough I clearly cannot logically, or morally justify supporting Hamas.

Anyway, I just sorta wanted to say that because I see alot of people taking very strong positions here and I wonder how many of them are actually based on morals and logic, instead of just a "gut feeling", which really could go either way, people like me maybe getting the feeling to root for the underdog, or other people who maybe hate all Muslims cheering and supporting Israel. I would just challenge people to put your OWN beliefs under scrutiny as sharply as ya'll scrutinize each others beliefs.
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Ya know, I know its incredibly morally inconstant and downright silly, but in a pretty strong way I actually favor the Arabs in this conflict. Not because they have a moral argument, but actually because I like rooting for the underdog, and something just doesn't seem fair about a country using the most advanced weapons in the world and backed by the USA blowing the living shit out of a group of dirt poor people using completely outdated technology who don't have a single friend who will actually raise a finger to protect them (a bunch of people TALK alot of shit but nobody actually does anything). Obviously there is no reason to assume the rich powerful nation is morally inferior, but I dunno it all just sort of rubs me wrong even tough I clearly cannot logically, or morally justify supporting Hamas.

Anyway, I just sorta wanted to say that because I see alot of people taking very strong positions here and I wonder how many of them are actually based on morals and logic, instead of just a "gut feeling", which really could go either way, people like me maybe getting the feeling to root for the underdog, or other people who maybe hate all Muslims cheering and supporting Israel. I would just challenge people to put your OWN beliefs under scrutiny as sharply as ya'll scrutinize each others beliefs.

That's sympathy you feel is by design. Rooted in silliness of Christianity - .

The Arabs tried, several countries, all ganged up on Israel in several wars. But after 1967 they redefined the conflict for western consumption. From big bad Arab states against the recently almost wiped out Jews - to one of the little Palestinians against big bad Israel. But make no mistake the goals of all Arabs and muslim states has not changed and the palestinies are armed, trained, and supported by those states as shock troops to continue the eradication of Israel.

See: ?Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian??
 
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: Lemon law
We should not judge pro -Israel support by the USA reaction, almost every nation on earth is less friendly to Israel.

Here is the yahoo news link on the mainly European reaction.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_...gi4tfkQS0mGlcFV8Ws0NUE

This Gaza offensive coming on the heels of the previous disproportionate rape of Lebanon 30 months ago may build into a world wide resolve to muzzle the pit bull. Europe has a far larger and angry Muslim population and they can see why they are angry, while the USA has only one 911, Europe is a central target, and see no reason to let Israel build tensions.

Israel could be facing long term facing an economic embargo, the USA can make such an embargo leak, but only at a price.

From the photos that I see, the protestors in Europe are essentially immigrants from Arab/muslim countries. There used to be much more secular support for the Palestinian cause in the '90s. After 9/11, London and Madrid bombings, Europeans have abandoned it, as they see the more sinister motives behind the whole issue.

You are kidding about the economic embargo against Israel, right?

you are absolutely right, We had riots the last few days in Belgium, caused by young Muslims
 
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: fallout man
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: SandEagle
picture #2 and #4 speak for themselves: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7809755.stm

#2: incendiary phosphorous weapons against civilian populations is a violation of the Geneva Conventions
#4: compare that to the tiny Qassams. a disproportionate show of force indeed, paid for with our tax dollars

Never again, unless you're Palestinian

Where do you see incendiary weapons in #2?

It's not #2 (BBC photo sites get updated).

See the strange octopus-like smoke trail thing in one of the photos? That's a WP round that detonated deliberately above ground to cover a large area. If you've watched any news with live/recorded footage of Gaza in the past 12 hours, you will have seen many times what this WP ordinance looks like at night above Gaza city--it's beautiful.

It's also a war-crime, given that Gaza is anything but a non-civillian population center, and using chemical/incendiary weapons on civillian population centers is a war crime.

We (the US) used WP in Fallujah on civillians with devastating results as well. It was explained away with mumbo-jumbo about how WP is not really chemical warfare. :roll:

Huh, thanks! I've been watching live coverage of the bombings online, and figured that they were firing flares for some reason (Hamas sure as fuck doesn't have any ordinance that can target aircraft). That's fucking despicable...

The intended purpose of a flare is to cover an area with light, and they do use WP as a light source. However, flares are the guys that stay up there as a single point of light, since they're WP burning bright and parachuted once they deploy.

Scattering WP over a large, populated area only brings death because WP burns at very high temperature until extinction when in contact with water. This means that in dry, desert air, when you inhale the smoke cloud, you breathe fire and die a horrible death like this guy (nsfw).

If you get unlucky, your death will be slower because you just get it onto your skin like this guy (nsfw).



Originally posted by: Deptacon

#1

Your an Idiot... That is not incendiary phosphorous...... (and also it is called white phosphorous or "willey P" to those who have handled "military" weapons)

#2

You have no idea what they are shooting at or hitting based on the picture

#3

Geneva only applies to nation vs. nation warfare..... I never saw Hamas sign the Geneva Conventions either (and they are not a recognized nation)

Do us a favor ... Don't post like you are military analyst or expert when you get your Intel from news website pics....

You're clearly correct. I sense this because you have a the army grunt icon, can't spell, and use super-cool military lingo like "Wiley Pete."

I look forward to your expert military analyst opinion after you go "handle" some "military" WP--preferably with bare hands.

:roll:
 
I know a lot of people on this board are not happy with Israeli's bombing or invasion of Gaza, but I have not seen a lot of people give alternatives to those actions.

So instead of focusing on who is dying or who was in the wrong 50+ years ago I would like to hear what those people think Israel should do.

If you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?
 
I don't believe most people are against Israel's invasion of Gaza especially if the goal is to ensure Hamas does not launched mortars against Israel anymore. However, most people are so ignorant about the issue and always let their emotions decide instead of their logic. The truth of the matter is Palestinians need to realize and need to stop being used and abused by their fellow Arab brothers. Iran, Syria, and Lebanon continue to pimp Palestinians against Israel at the cost of Palestinian lives and a few dollars from Iran, Syria and Lebanon. If Palestinians want to live in peace then they should start accepting facts, instead of being pimped! It's a shame that Palestinian's fellow Arab brothers would not commit any lives against Israel but willing to provide all weapons at the cost of Palestinian lives. Wake up Palestine and start living on your own accord and stop being used or abused or being pimped!
 
Adhering to the original terms of the ceasefire which included lifting the blockade on diesel, electricity, and medicine would have been a great start. Hamas resumed firing rockets after talks to renew the ceasefire fell through. One and a half million are still without basic necessities of life.
 
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Gee, I wonder, maybe it's because Israel's "withdrawal" from Gaza was a complete fucking farce since they still control the borders (land and sea) and the airspace. Sounds like a great way for Gazans to fend from themselves.

The land they "withdrew" from, ie. the settlements, were not given back to the Gazans, and is still off limits. The IDF used Netzarim as a staging point for the ground invasion. The "withdrawal" was nothing more than a tactical publicity stunt.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Thats like me holding you in your house hostage and telling you to get a job but won't let you leave.
 
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Gee, I wonder, maybe it's because Israel's "withdrawal" from Gaza was a complete fucking farce since they still control the borders (land and sea) and the airspace. Sounds like a great way for Gazans to fend from themselves.

The land they "withdrew" from, ie. the settlements, were not given back to the Gazans, and is still off limits. The IDF used Netzarim as a staging point for the ground invasion. The "withdrawal" was nothing more than a tactical publicity stunt.

They get lots of armaments and missiles in there no problem. Also can you show me some evidence Israel blocks food and other nessesites from around the world? And while you're at it proof Israel didn't 100% withdrawal from gaza. If they do that I agree Israel is reponsible for their welfare - but I await proof.
 
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Thats like me holding you in your house hostage and telling you to get a job but won't let you leave.

? explain
 
As usual, non Prof John asks a phony question. Israel is pretending to be the aggrieved party, but its just as ingenious as some bank robber wondering why the cops are chasing after them when they still hold the loot.

No, Israel did not steal Palestinian land fair and square and there will be no statute of limitations to expire that will legitimize it.

This is been the one constant in this now 60 year old struggle, if Israel wants to end the problem, it has to get to the peace table and make some meaningful concessions including the right to return.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Thats like me holding you in your house hostage and telling you to get a job but won't let you leave.

? explain

Israel controls all the fuel that enters Gaza. How can they support themselves when they don't have a chance? I agree, the rockets are wrong but its hard to better yourself when someone cuts your power or your food supply at a moment's notice. Hamas is terrorist filth but the people that are born there have no chance. Its deadman walking.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Gee, I wonder, maybe it's because Israel's "withdrawal" from Gaza was a complete fucking farce since they still control the borders (land and sea) and the airspace. Sounds like a great way for Gazans to fend from themselves.

The land they "withdrew" from, ie. the settlements, were not given back to the Gazans, and is still off limits. The IDF used Netzarim as a staging point for the ground invasion. The "withdrawal" was nothing more than a tactical publicity stunt.

They get lots of armaments and missiles in there no problem. Also can you show me some evidence Israel blocks food and other nessesites from around the world? And while you're at it proof Israel didn't 100% withdrawal from gaza. If they do that I agree Israel is reponsible for their welfare - but I await proof.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950381.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976086.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...raelandthepalestinians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7737243.stm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27801489/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...ain-Gaza-blockade.html
http://us.oneworld.net/article...eatens-civilian-health
http://www.latimes.com/news/na...8nov21,0,4556575.story

That took a Google search and two minutes worth of work.
 
Originally posted by: Lemon law
As usual, non Prof John asks a phony question. Israel is pretending to be the aggrieved party, but its just as ingenious as some bank robber wondering why the cops are chasing after them when they still hold the loot.

No, Israel did not steal Palestinian land fair and square and there will be no statute of limitations to expire that will legitimize it.

This is been the one constant in this now 60 year old struggle, if Israel wants to end the problem, it has to get to the peace table and make some meaningful concessions including the right to return.

Right to return will never happen because UN Resolution 194 says Palestinian and Jewish refugees should be permitted to return to their respective areas only if they are willing to live in peace with their neighbors. Palestinian have demonstrated both in doctrine and actions they have no intent to live with peace, in fact call for extermination of Jews.

What's really going to decide this is thermal nuclear war.
 
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: Zebo
Why should israel provide those things? Can't they get diesel, electricity and medicine from same place they get those missiles? Or better yet make them themselves but that would require some education and work ethic other than studying hate and jihad.

Gee, I wonder, maybe it's because Israel's "withdrawal" from Gaza was a complete fucking farce since they still control the borders (land and sea) and the airspace. Sounds like a great way for Gazans to fend from themselves.

The land they "withdrew" from, ie. the settlements, were not given back to the Gazans, and is still off limits. The IDF used Netzarim as a staging point for the ground invasion. The "withdrawal" was nothing more than a tactical publicity stunt.

They get lots of armaments and missiles in there no problem. Also can you show me some evidence Israel blocks food and other nessesites from around the world? And while you're at it proof Israel didn't 100% withdrawal from gaza. If they do that I agree Israel is reponsible for their welfare - but I await proof.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950381.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976086.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...raelandthepalestinians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7737243.stm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27801489/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...ain-Gaza-blockade.html
http://us.oneworld.net/article...eatens-civilian-health
http://www.latimes.com/news/na...8nov21,0,4556575.story

That took a Google search and two minutes worth of work.

I see nothing of blocking foreign shipments. I guess by 'blockade' you mean cutting off welfare to those who want to kill you. Cry me a river.
 
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