I disagree. It'd be a huge issue with the right up in arms demanding something be done and attacking Iran for being a war monger dangerous to the region.
I disagree. It'd be a huge issue with the right up in arms demanding something be done and attacking Iran for being a war monger dangerous to the region.
Sure, that means Israel was in the right in 67 when they decimated there opponents who were sticking armies on there borders. Of course, say that out loud and people will venously degree.
Israel has to wait to be attacked to respond, and even than (Lebanon) she is still at fault.
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
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Even the Europeans realized there's no good in letting Iran arm itself with missiles capable of hitting central Europe, complete with nuclear warheads. It's a shame that Israel is left alone against Iran at such times.
Craig234, what do you think Israel has an army for? To retaliate AFTER a nuclear attack? It's not the US, it doesn't have the endurance to withstand a nuclear attack. It just can't take chances.
Whatever is the justification, I don't think an Israeli attack on Iran is feasible. Israel isn't the US, it can't launch bombing raids on Iran effectively. Without resorting to something nasty like nuking their nuclear facilities, I don't see how anything could be done without some assistance.
Craig234, what do you think Israel has an army for? To retaliate AFTER a nuclear attack? It's not the US, it doesn't have the endurance to withstand a nuclear attack. It just can't take chances.
Whatever is the justification, I don't think an Israeli attack on Iran is feasible. Israel isn't the US, it can't launch bombing raids on Iran effectively. Without resorting to something nasty like nuking their nuclear facilities, I don't see how anything could be done without some assistance.
I don't know many who are against Israel's pre-emptive attack in 1967.
Israel has to wait to be attacked to respond, and even than (Lebanon) she is still at fault.[/quote]
Uh, saying that Israel's invasion was justified by the 'attack' on them is ridiculous.
There are ongoing tensions and incidents - the kidnapping of what was it, three Israeli soldiers, common for something to trade for prisoners in Israel's jails, hardly justified the huge attack by Israel. That's called 'using a pretense'. And it was a particularly transparent, ridiculous pretense.
If that's your standard, then they all have the right to bomb Israel out of existence every day for Israel's ongoing incidents where they wrong three Palestinians.
That was just a ridiculous claim you posted.
With Iran capable of reaching American bases in Iraq and Afghanistan we might have a full scale war if Israel does anything stupid. You just can't go bombing places for no reason at all. And I sincerely do hope the rest of the world does something instead of watching US/Israeli imperialism taking over the world. In fact an attack of this sort would give me all the reason to compare Nazi ambitions with Israeli ones. And the relatively friendly people of muslim countries will now turn totally anti-American. The Iraqis; the afghans; the Pakistanis; and because a common enemy and common threat will get the people together - the Sunni Arabs. Will Russia and China let trillions of dollars worth of oil and trade be stolen by America? I doubt it. If Russia and China were to ever go with war with America it would be best to do so when America was in a black hole.
And some people talk of a nuclear strike. That would be so hypocritical it makes me want to puke!
And some people talk of a nuclear strike. That would be so hypocritical it makes me want to puke!
Originally posted by: railer
call me an optimist, but, Israel isn't going to do anything, and neither are we.
And if the US or Israel DID do something, I don't think it would be the doomsday scenario that some play it out to be.
We wouldn't send troops into Iran. Not many anyway. Worst case, we'd do a shock and awe on them and bomb them back to the year 1200.
And yes, gas would be $10/gallon.
And yes, that would be a stupid move.
But WWIII isn't going to break out if Israel bombs Iran, Iran then attacks Israel (or most likely EVERYTHING it can), and then we drop about 20k bombs on Iran. Russia and China won't do much, and neither will the US beyond the above mentioned bombing.
That all being said tomorrow might be a good day to finally gas up my truck.
Then what do you do about Iraq and Afghanistan when there are insurgencies 100x worse than those today's? It will give birth to an anti-american Iranian style government that will stretch from Pakistan to Turkey.
I think it will show up the problem for what it is: a fundamental disconnect between radical Islamic thought and the rest of the world. This problem has to be faced sooner or later and, much like the problem of feudal Germany and Japan railing against the revolutionary changes of the 20th century. That took nearly a 100 years and two world wars to solve. So we may require another 100 years for Islamic radicalism to be subdued but it will be in the end. Nuclear weapons add to the complexity, of course, but I would imagine that people saw Armageddon in the world wars too.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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If Israel attack Iran on merely a preemption basis, I think we will see a world condemnation reaction that will transform Israel into a rouge State. No UN security council veto by the US would be strong enough to save Israel. And the end of Israel as a viable nation as an economic embargo and binding arbitration would follow. Israel might well remember what happened when the Romans lost patience with them.
On the other hand, the world will say that Iranian leaders could not keep sitting in the safety of their country and threatening to destroy Israel, all the while building up the means to do so. Israel has been sending signal after signal to the world about that eventuality, so it's not as if an attack would be a bolt from the blue.
If Israel attacks Iran they are going to have to tell the U.S. U.S forces will be ready for the wave coming at them.
If Israel attacks Iran and doesn't tell the U.S then our troops are going to be in their beds or at lunch eating when Iran launches everything they have at them. Nice surprise. Thanks Israel
So given the capability of the U.S with their F-22s and massive naval presence in the Persian Gulf, it makes sense for the U.S to simply say "we'll do it ourselves".
If Israel attacks Iran and doesn't tell the U.S then our troops are going to be in their beds or at lunch eating when Iran launches everything they have at them. Nice surprise. Thanks Israel
So given the capability of the U.S with their F-22s and massive naval presence in the Persian Gulf, it makes sense for the U.S to simply say "we'll do it ourselves".
It's not as if they're giving oil away:
"Gulf to earn $1.3 trillion from oil in two years: report
KUWAIT CITY (AFP) - The oil-rich Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) states are projected to earn close to 1.3 trillion dollars in oil revenue in 2008 and 2009, a Kuwaiti economic report said on Saturday.
The six-nation alliance -- Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia -- earned 364 billion dollars from oil in 2007, the Al-Shall Economic Consultants said in its weekly report.
The GCC oil revenues are projected to reach 636 billion dollars in 2008 and 657 billion dollars in 2009, Al-Shall said.
Oil powerhouse Saudi Arabia's earnings in the two years will be just under 700 billion dollars. The kingdom posted 194 billion dollars in oil revenues in 2007.
The six states, which boast just less than half of the world's crude proven reserves, produce around 16 million barrels per day, or just under one-fifth of the world's consumption."
Yeah, we've heard the "mother of all battles" speech before. And the guy who made it is six feet under.
This is every bit as impressive and convincing to me as North Korea's excercises.
I am honestly a bit embarrased that this actually had a significant effect on the market.
Military excercises are acts of diplomacy, not aggression.
I am honestly a bit embarrased that this actually had a significant effect on the market.
Military excercises are acts of diplomacy, not aggression.
Perhaps, but only if you base the entire attack on one or two incidents. Now if you take the years of histories and rockets together and look at it like that you might see a different picture.
Either way, this is exactly what I was talking about. Israel can be getting bombed, its soldiers killed, its military installations attacked, and people will still think she is in the wrong
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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As RichardE plays the deep in denial delusional one again--------Either way, this is exactly what I was talking about. Israel can be getting bombed, its soldiers killed, its military installations attacked, and people will still think she is in the wrong
Israel hardly can claim to be the 100% aggrieved party when they occupy land seized in 1967, oppress the Palestinian people they stole land from, and in general acts like bulls in a china shop. Please understand I am not saying Israel is 100% guilty either, there are plenty of Arab guilt in this ongoing 60 year old conflict, but Israel is being attacked simply because they are unwilling to make any real concessions that could form the basis of a just and fair peace settlement.
Iran is going through a UN process to develop nuclear energy, Iran is likely to gain that right, and Israel has no right to interfere in a UN process.
And to acknowledge The Green Bean, my prior post ignored what Iran would do if attacked. Or its Arab neighbors. That is quite another subject and its not to be minimized.
But again it leads to the same end, Israel would get no world sympathy or support and the right would be on the side of Iran & allies.
But I also look at it from my selfish point of view, this saber rattling by Israel will allow oil speculators to push oil prices even higher. And that will hurt the hell out of me when I go to fill my car. But if Israel actually attacks Iran, we can look for oil prices to go above $500/barrel.
Israel hardly can claim to be the 100% aggrieved party when they occupy land seized in 1967, oppress the Palestinian people they stole land from, and in general acts like bulls in a china shop. Please understand I am not saying Israel is 100% guilty either, there are plenty of Arab guilt in this ongoing 60 year old conflict, but Israel is being attacked simply because they are unwilling to make any real concessions that could form the basis of a just and fair peace settlement.
Iran is going through a UN process to develop nuclear energy, Iran is likely to gain that right, and Israel has no right to interfere in a UN process.
And to acknowledge The Green Bean, my prior post ignored what Iran would do if attacked. Or its Arab neighbors. That is quite another subject and its not to be minimized.
But again it leads to the same end, Israel would get no world sympathy or support and the right would be on the side of Iran & allies.
But I also look at it from my selfish point of view, this saber rattling by Israel will allow oil speculators to push oil prices even higher. And that will hurt the hell out of me when I go to fill my car. But if Israel actually attacks Iran, we can look for oil prices to go above $500/barrel.
Every major player including Russia and China has told Iran to knock it off ect. Do you think China really wants Iran to have a nuke? It won't be long till the Jihad sets its sights on China. (They started with Russia, than the US) the goal is a world wide Islam. You make politics sound a lot more simpler than they actually are. (Well, all the countries stand in a line, lets tally up the votes and that decides world wide support or condemnation of Iran) The reason China and Russia are bitching at Tehran about there nuclear idea, as well as giving them help is to make sure they don't get the bomb. The only problem is Tehran is playing hardball with them as well (think they way Pakistan played the US and Russia against each other for the decade or so before Russia invaded Afghanistan). Ideological battles are truly dead, a idea of a ideological post World War where people subscribed to there ideology and changed there belief to suit it. Now a days people have beliefs and see where they fit in. The reason this is important is because the only *only* reason Any of the current nuclear powers would want another nuclear power would be for an advantageous reason. (For example, China gives Venezuela nukes that can only go so far, and are programs by Chinese code with passwords only China knows to change them, so they can hit the US, but not China). To think that Israel destroying a nuclear reactor that *no* one has control over besides Tehran is going to bring about world condemnation on the scale of war is foolish. The most that will happen is some posturing behind the lines as the UN comdems it, China and Russia say thank you for not attacking there infrastructure, tell Iran told you so and here let us help you build "peaceful" energy (expanding sphere of influence activities) and Israel and China go back to there cozy relationship.
- Oct 30, 2000
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The Arabs offered a fair peacesettlement in '48 - what happened - sneak attack in '53
They also offered a fair peace settlement in '53 - what happened -planned attack in '67
They also offered a fair peace settlement in '67 - what happened - sneak attack in '73
Each time Israel captured land from the Arabs who waged war against them.
And the Palestinians continued to wage war against Israel after '73.
Two years ago, Israel returned land as a peace offering to the Palestinians and was bitten because of it.
Israel has been continually attacked simply because they refuse to be beaten and are able to embarrass the Arabs every time Israel is threatened or attacked. It is the Arabs that clamar for a truce and cesation of hostilities, not Israel.
Did the Arabs ever offer to return land that they "took" from Israel in '48 and '53.
They kept on pushing until Israel was able to throw them back.
Did the Arabs comlain about the land that was "stolen" then?
This complete stolen land is becauseof war and the Palestinians chose the wrong side.
They gambled and lost.
Arabs living inside Israel territory have always lived better than when they were under Arab control.
And people want to punish Israel for it's success. Why?
Originally posted by: Lemon law
"Israel hardly can claim to be the 100% aggrieved party when they occupy land seized in 1967, oppress the Palestinian people they stole land from, and in general acts like bulls in a china shop. Please understand I am not saying Israel is 100% guilty either, there are plenty of Arab guilt in this ongoing 60 year old conflict, but Israel is being attacked simply because they are unwilling to make any real concessions that could form the basis of a just and fair peace settlement."
And you deliberately ignore the other events that led to the 1967 occupation viz. Arab states ganging up to wipe Israel off the map. And if some of the concessions include things like right of return , one can see why Israel is somewhat apprehensive about falling on it's own sword (especially since the Arab states have encouraged Palestinians to breed like rabbits to demographically overwhelm Israel).
Israel has made a just and honorable peace with Egypt and Jordan, so it can hardly be accused of not trying. The problem is the parasites attached to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, especially Iran who will never let a settlement happen.
"Iran is going through a UN process to develop nuclear energy, Iran is likely to gain that right, and Israel has no right to interfere in a UN process."
And Israel should ignore the daily rants from the Iranian mullahs about how it's going to be wiped off the map?
.....
"But I also look at it from my selfish point of view, this saber rattling by Israel will allow oil speculators to push oil prices even higher. And that will hurt the hell out of me when I go to fill my car. But if Israel actually attacks Iran, we can look for oil prices to go above $500/barrel."
I sincerely hope that it goes to $500 plus a barrel so that the West does what it knows best: innovate itself out of a problem of it's own creation viz. relying on medieval mullahs and left wing South American thugs to keep the wheels of it's industry turning. It's like handing over the keys of the industrial and information age to the Looney Tunes cartoon characters.
"Israel hardly can claim to be the 100% aggrieved party when they occupy land seized in 1967, oppress the Palestinian people they stole land from, and in general acts like bulls in a china shop. Please understand I am not saying Israel is 100% guilty either, there are plenty of Arab guilt in this ongoing 60 year old conflict, but Israel is being attacked simply because they are unwilling to make any real concessions that could form the basis of a just and fair peace settlement."
And you deliberately ignore the other events that led to the 1967 occupation viz. Arab states ganging up to wipe Israel off the map. And if some of the concessions include things like right of return , one can see why Israel is somewhat apprehensive about falling on it's own sword (especially since the Arab states have encouraged Palestinians to breed like rabbits to demographically overwhelm Israel).
Israel has made a just and honorable peace with Egypt and Jordan, so it can hardly be accused of not trying. The problem is the parasites attached to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, especially Iran who will never let a settlement happen.
"Iran is going through a UN process to develop nuclear energy, Iran is likely to gain that right, and Israel has no right to interfere in a UN process."
And Israel should ignore the daily rants from the Iranian mullahs about how it's going to be wiped off the map?
.....
"But I also look at it from my selfish point of view, this saber rattling by Israel will allow oil speculators to push oil prices even higher. And that will hurt the hell out of me when I go to fill my car. But if Israel actually attacks Iran, we can look for oil prices to go above $500/barrel."
I sincerely hope that it goes to $500 plus a barrel so that the West does what it knows best: innovate itself out of a problem of it's own creation viz. relying on medieval mullahs and left wing South American thugs to keep the wheels of it's industry turning. It's like handing over the keys of the industrial and information age to the Looney Tunes cartoon characters.
My gosh, can you get one word correct?
What "daily" rants, I'm aware of a one-time comment. It wasn't from the Mullahs, it was from the less-powerful president. And he clarified that he was not speaking of violence, he was saying that he would like to see the political state of Israel removed. And it was a desire that it happen, not something he was 'going to do' like announcing a war plan.
Israel not only wanted to see Hezbollah 'wiped off the map', they not only wanted to do the wiping with violence, they actually did a major military attack to try to largely do that.
Time to stop the mis-characterizing of the facts. There's plenty to be concerned about with Iran without inventing things.
Russia has said there is no need to use force on Iran because there is zero evidence they are trying to build a bomb. Doesn't seem like Russia is scared of Iran.
Russia is the one giving Iran nuclear technology and giving them weapon technology. Part of the sanctions was "We will think about giving you airplanes such as Boeing and Airbus". What did Russia do? "Iran here is 100 aircraft that we will build inside Iran for you". Russia is giving Iran everything they need. If Russia wanted to make sanctions work they would not have given Iran aircraft and they would not have given them nuclear fuel for their reactor.
Russia signs off on the sanctions then offers Iran their own stuff to boost up Russia's economy. Russia is playing the West and gaining from Iran.
Russia is the one giving Iran nuclear technology and giving them weapon technology. Part of the sanctions was "We will think about giving you airplanes such as Boeing and Airbus". What did Russia do? "Iran here is 100 aircraft that we will build inside Iran for you". Russia is giving Iran everything they need. If Russia wanted to make sanctions work they would not have given Iran aircraft and they would not have given them nuclear fuel for their reactor.
Russia signs off on the sanctions then offers Iran their own stuff to boost up Russia's economy. Russia is playing the West and gaining from Iran.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
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To some of my critics who blindly defend Israel and predict it will get away with a preemptive Iranian attack. You may have convinced yourself that you are right, but the proof is in the results.
But the worst delusion is the tvarad one here--I sincerely hope that it goes to $500 plus a barrel so that the West does what it knows best: innovate itself out of a problem of it's own creation viz. relying on medieval mullahs and left wing South American thugs to keep the wheels of it's industry turning. It's like handing over the keys of the industrial and information age to the Looney Tunes cartoon characters.
The West has not innovated itself out of a paper bag in 40 years regarding oil, if oil goes to $500/barrel, every one of these Western oil based economies will collapse in less than 40 days. And if Iran opts to blockade the Persian gulf, oil could easily go over $1000/barrel.
A word to the wise is sufficient.
But the worst delusion is the tvarad one here--I sincerely hope that it goes to $500 plus a barrel so that the West does what it knows best: innovate itself out of a problem of it's own creation viz. relying on medieval mullahs and left wing South American thugs to keep the wheels of it's industry turning. It's like handing over the keys of the industrial and information age to the Looney Tunes cartoon characters.
The West has not innovated itself out of a paper bag in 40 years regarding oil, if oil goes to $500/barrel, every one of these Western oil based economies will collapse in less than 40 days. And if Iran opts to blockade the Persian gulf, oil could easily go over $1000/barrel.
A word to the wise is sufficient.
Right. Israeli leaders are going "Wow. Lucky us. We can relax knowing it's not the top nut-jobs running Iran that are talking about destroying us but someone down the line". And I guess Iranians can rest easy knowing that it's not the President of Israel that's threatening to attack Iran but a inconsequential military commander, going by the same logic.
As for Hezbollocks it's too bad it was not wiped off the map. For the sake of Lebanon which is back to square one because of Nasrallah's adventures.
There is 1 leader of Iran. He controls everything. If he dies someone else will take his spot. It will never be the President of Iran. Iran's President does not control Iran's military.
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