Isn't "Tough ON Crime" code for racism against blacks

[eilute]

Originally posted by: db
Notice that the Far Right apparently needs to always have a war of some kind going on, and that fear is always an element to get people to pay attention and fall in line with their agenda.
Always.

Yes. I remember Giuliani launched the war on rats.

rough Letterman quote
The ware on rats is over. The rats have won.

😕

 

[Sixtyfour]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour

Isn't "Tough ON Crime" code for racism against blacks

If black doesn't commit a crime...

Really? Hard to achieve with Republican values in the air. Jobs to China, welfare out the window, affirmative action really quotas in disguise. No socialized medicine. Geez, you gotta eat and stay alive somehow. And what's going to happen to prison stock with empty jails.

Do the black in the US think that they have some god given right to have great jobs ?
It's not like there is quota for high payroll, or that there is conspiracy against blacks.
You have to earn your position in a society, and no one is going to give you his position, you have to take it by legal methods.

Just compare jewish community in new york to black community in new york.

Hint: jews support each other (people will NOT succeed alone).

Who is going to fight our wars?

You question has answer in it. 🙂

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour

Isn't "Tough ON Crime" code for racism against blacks

If black doesn't commit a crime...

Really? Hard to achieve with Republican values in the air. Jobs to China, welfare out the window, affirmative action really quotas in disguise. No socialized medicine. Geez, you gotta eat and stay alive somehow. And what's going to happen to prison stock with empty jails.

Do the black in the US think that they have some god given right to have great jobs ?
It's not like there is quota for high payroll, or that there is conspiracy against blacks.
You have to earn your position in a society, and no one is going to give you his position, you have to take it by legal methods.

Just compare jewish community in new york to black community in new york.

Hint: jews support each other (people will NOT succeed alone).

Who is going to fight our wars?

You question has answer in it. 🙂

I see. Blacks are genetically destined to poverty because they don't work together and don't have what it takes to bump others to the bottom and walk on them. Three cheers for kill or be killed. Go get um you superman, you.

 

[maluckey]

Moonbeam,

What did you smoke on your break?

NOBODY on this thread said anything about genetic predisposition. Much has been said about circumstances that ARE withing their control (Poverty), and thing that can be done inthe community to uplift each other from poverty. Crime (especially durgs and violence) often goes with poverty, and when you don't support yourself (and those with whom you identify) mentally, there is no winning.

I know a great story I heard from my Father in Law (a Mexican) about Mexicans.

There was a streeet vendor selling seafood. He had Crabs from all over the world in covered baskets. There were crabs from the coast of the U.S., Africa Costa Rica, Japan and every place that you could imagine. Towards the side, off on their own was a larger basket with no top on it. When I asked the vendor why there was no top on the Mexican basket he replied "Because as soon as one of them makes it to the top and is about ready to get out, the rest of the crabs drag his sorry a** down!"

Poverty is tough, but it doesn't have to lead to crime and a dead-end life. Nothing can stop someone who is determined to leave a stereotype behind and do their own thing.

 

[Sixtyfour]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

I see. Blacks are genetically destined to poverty because they don't work together and don't have what it takes to bump others to the bottom and walk on them. Three cheers for kill or be killed. Go get um you superman, you.

😕

 

[slyedog]

seems moonbeam knows more abt blacks than we do. i learned a few thing abt blacks that i didnot know. but he does not know the difference between blacks and nagers. pitiful

 

[Jhhnn]

Ever wonder why there are very few to no successful black Republican politicians, particularly in the South? Keep in mind that I said politicians, not appointees, there being a difference, and that successful means winning elections... Which leaves Alan Keyes out, he's never won an election in his life.

Black Republicans in Congress?

Black Republican Mayors or Governors?

How about Black Republicans in State Legislatures?

Hhmmmm... Having a little trouble? What does it mean, professor?

It means that core Republican constituencies won't vote for Blacks, plain and simple.

Why not? Because they've been conditioned not to. Part and parcel of the winning Southern strategy has been to split working class whites away from blacks, and has been for over a hundred years. When national Dems abandoned it (and traditional southern Dems) in the 60's with the Civil Rights acts, the Repubs were more than happy to pick it up, run with it, and to accept the upper class white refugees into their party. Their message to working class whites remains that they're different from blacks, better somehow, and have employed a variety of methods to get that across. It's all more subtle than the Dixiecrat message, but it's the same message... Which is not to say that Repub leaders are racist, merely that they exploit such sentiment, just as they'll exploit any kneejerk mentality for the vote it carries.

Welfare Queens, Law and Order, Tough on Crime, Family Values, references to dependency, etc are all used to maintain the social order of a white upper class, of wealth over democracy by splitting the electorate. Repubs whole approach is basically anti- federal govt, too, which sells well in the South, even when they are the federal govt. antitax and antiredistribution, too, because they've taught their constituencies to fear and loathe such principles, painting blacks as the recipients of such efforts, and whites as the losers...

Toss Willie Horton on top of the mess, right next to appeals to Jesus and pandering to firearm fetishism to appreciate the full extent of the exploitation.

 

[Jadow]

We don't see much action against white collar crime

Bernie Ebbers
Dennis Koslowski
Martha Stewart
and
Jeff Skilling

would disagree

 

[Jadow]

Also, there's a big difference between violent crime and white collar crime.

 

[maluckey]

Jhhnn

Why not? Because they've been conditioned not to. Part and parcel of the winning Southern strategy has been to split working class whites away from blacks, and has been for over a hundred years. When national Dems abandoned it (and traditional southern Dems) in the 60's with the Civil Rights acts, the Repubs were more than happy to pick it up, run with it, and to accept the upper class white refugees into their party. Their message to working class whites remains that they're different from blacks, better somehow, and have employed a variety of methods to get that across. It's all more subtle than the Dixiecrat message, but it's the same message... Which is not to say that Repub leaders are racist, merely that they exploit such sentiment, just as they'll exploit any kneejerk mentality for the vote it carries.

Not even close. Republicans are the driving force behind race equality. It is within the platform statements. Read the actual platform statements over the last One Hundred Years sometime. You will be shocked as I was to find that the Republican party has been the champions of civil rights, and Demonized as the opressor all at the same time. . .

Here is a good resource...In the Words of the Parties themselves


Not much has changed. Democrats play the race card every chance that they get.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

I think our most pressing concern is violent crime. White-collar crime is reprehensible, sure, but it takes a backseat to such horrors as murder and assault.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
We don't see much action against white collar crime and less against things like outing CIA agents, but Republicans are big on being tough on crime and the number of black males serving time is all out of proportion to their numbers in the population. Looks a lot like being tough on crime is just repackaged racism designed to get the bigoted frightened white vote.

You and a whole bunch of Democrats who never did anything for anyone except amass their votes for political power and wealth would surely like to think that, wouldn't you?

In case this is not just insane babbling and had some real and intended meaning, do you think you could restate it in different words and clearly? Granted, I have amassed quite a fortune and hold incredible political power and all that sort of thing, but just what is it, in your words, that you think I would like to think? Is it that I, myself, am opposed and reject racist appeals to the bigoted and frightened white folk? That is certainly what your, may I say, muddled rant seems to imply and I certainly agree. So I guess, then, too, that what you don't like is my wealth and power. Hehe. So it's racism in the pursuit of class warfare for you Republicans, eh?

I wasn't implying that you possess great wealth. I was implying that Democrats amass great wealth by taking advantage of rabble who will follow them with no discernable benefit to themselves (said rabble). So you say that you are not wealthy? It is so much easier to communicate with neocons. They require much less effort to try to get them to understand a simple sentence. Keep trying, progress is not evident, but I'm sure it must be taking place.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Ever wonder why there are very few to no successful black Republican politicians, particularly in the South?
...
core Republican constituencies won't vote for Blacks, plain and simple.

Your conclusion is pure speculation, based on no tangible evidence. Not surprisingly, it is wrong.

Why not? Because they've been conditioned not to. Part and parcel of the winning Southern strategy has been to split working class whites away from blacks, and has been for over a hundred years.

Whites and blacks do that on their own, without the help of politicians or parties.

When national Dems abandoned it (and traditional southern Dems) in the 60's with the Civil Rights acts, the Repubs were more than happy to pick it up, run with it, and to accept the upper class white refugees into their party. Their message to working class whites remains that they're different from blacks, better somehow, and have employed a variety of methods to get that across.

Where are you getting this? What "methods" have Republicans used to press the notion that whites are "better somehow" than blacks?

Welfare Queens, Law and Order, Tough on Crime, Family Values, references to dependency, etc are all used to maintain the social order of a white upper class, of wealth over democracy by splitting the electorate.

Speculation. Unlikely speculation, to be exact.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: Whaspe
Was the OP expecting a legitimite scholarly talk when he penned this?

Instead of "Tough on Crime" I'd like to see some reform in the way we handle criminals. I'm unsure of stats in the U.S. but I know that in Canada it costs upwards of $100,000 dollars a year to house and detain an inmate. I'm wondering if there's a better way? Any suggestions? Last year I attended a talk by our Chief Justice of Canada's Supreme Court Beverley McLachlin. In it she discussed mental illness and the way we deal with it as a society. Many prisoners are in prison for petty crime, things they do to lash out at society or to survive. Is locking these people up the answer? These are definitely tough questions to ask and tougher to answer. Something I've always thought about when a alleged murderer pleads insanity is this: Would any normal person murder someone? In the case of white collar criminals, what you have is someone premeditating to do a serious crime, typically robbing honest citizens out of hard earned income. The problem is that this type of crime doesn't play on our fears.

Down here south of the border, we have some very stupid and useless laws that make victims out of people who are simply ignorant, not at all criminals. I think we should stop ruining what could be normal lives and just legalize drugs much as we had to do with alcohol. That would empty out a lot of cells and as a side effect; free a lot of blacks that have really done nothing wrong except to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I wouldn't expect to see any of our liberal colleagues OP a thread with that much reason in it, though. They always make every effort to put everything that is and has been wrtong in our society for thirty plus years on the back of a pretty good President who's only mistake was in running at a point in time when the American public was really disgusted with Democratic leadership, and then they ran a person of very dubious character against him in another failed attempt to regain power. The term we have for those folks is "sore losers". They probably try to cheat at cards and get mad when they get caught there too!

 

[Jhhnn]

From hurtstotalktoyou-

"Your conclusion is pure speculation, based on no tangible evidence. Not surprisingly, it is wrong."

Heh. Then explain the observed phenomenon in other terms, if you can. Explain the sudden shift from Democrat to Republican in the "Solid South" in the wake of the Civil Rights acts, while you're at it, keeping in mind the defection of Strom Thurmond and other Dixiecrats to the Repubs... or is that just coincidence?

Oh, yeh, forgot to mention the old Segregationist battle cry of "States' Rights!" becoming a Repub banner, not to mention their portrayal of affirmative action as detrimental to working class and middle class whites... Reagan's symbolic use of Philadelphia, Mississippi to denounce Welfare Queens, and his Praise of Jefferson Davis at Stone Mountain, Georgia are thinly veiled appeals to racist sentiment...

Every once in awhile, a Repub leader will stick their foot in their mouth, Like Lott, or more recently, Bennett- they're just being too obvious, that's all. Their target audience knows exactly what they're talking about, even when they're using polite and politically correct terminology...

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Moonbeam,

What did you smoke on your break?

NOBODY on this thread said anything about genetic predisposition. Much has been said about circumstances that ARE withing their control (Poverty), and thing that can be done inthe community to uplift each other from poverty. Crime (especially durgs and violence) often goes with poverty, and when you don't support yourself (and those with whom you identify) mentally, there is no winning.

I know a great story I heard from my Father in Law (a Mexican) about Mexicans.

There was a streeet vendor selling seafood. He had Crabs from all over the world in covered baskets. There were crabs from the coast of the U.S., Africa Costa Rica, Japan and every place that you could imagine. Towards the side, off on their own was a large basket with no top on it. When I asked the vendor why there was no top on the Mexican basket he replied "Because as soon as one of them makes it to the top and is about ready to get out, the rest of the crabs drag his sorry a** down!"

Poverty is tough, but it doesn't have to lead to crime and a dead-end life. Nothing can stop someone who is determined to leave a stereotype behind and do their own thing.

I will love you forever for the Mexican story but it is not really true of just Mexicans, as I think you meant to imply. It is true of people who hate themselves and hate therefore any notion of success. In short this is exactly how we all are if we could just have the impartial insight to look. The deep wisdom and humor of your story comes from the fact that we unconsciously and nervously see just a bit of ourself, of course, in somebody it's safe to laugh at, ie crabs. And in your response to Jhhnn's excellent post you mention a longstanding platform. Those are words. Where's the beef?

Originally posted by: Sixtyfour

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

I see. Blacks are genetically destined to poverty because they don't work together and don't have what it takes to bump others to the bottom and walk on them. Three cheers for kill or be killed. Go get um you superman, you.

😕

What, so ashamed of yourself that you have no defense?

Originally posted by: slyedog
seems moonbeam knows more abt blacks than we do. i learned a few thing abt blacks that i didnot know. but he does not know the difference between blacks and nagers. pitiful

What is pitiful is you inability to express a coherent thought and reference instead some mystical state of knowledge. Perhaps you are afraid to say what's on your mind.

-------------------

Originally posted by: Jadow
We don't see much action against white collar crime

Bernie Ebbers
Dennis Koslowski
Martha Stewart
and
Jeff Skilling

would disagree

Also, there's a big difference between violent crime and white collar crime.

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
I think our most pressing concern is violent crime. White-collar crime is reprehensible, sure, but it takes a backseat to such horrors as murder and assault.

----------------------

Right cleanly stealing the pensions of millions of old folk is so much preferable to robbing a bank. The first poster listed 4 names against millions who are in jail. The difference is in your mind which I see as being rather sick not to be completely outraged. I can only conclude that white collar crime is close to both your hearts. It certainly is people like you voting for people like you that has created this corporate epidemic. How about some real retribution like the firing squad for such theft. You know how tough on crime reduces crime, right. Black Democrats go to prison for small time offenses and the massive Republican thieves play golf. Your trainers are pleased.

 

[Whaspe]

What I find frustrating with the politics of today is that there is no real debate about issues like this one and others. Instead it's about a political parties history and how horrible they were, or a popularity contest with people looking at which candidate has a better haircut or proper military experience to lead the country... BAH! I think we could all learn a lesson from a decent legacy

If only people would look for this type of leadership instead of waiting to be spoonfed with it. Maybe then, an issue like crime and what to do with it will be properly addressed. And I wouldn't be surprised if the States has to deal with the same thing Canada has to deal with... white collar crime in government.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Whaspe
What I find frustrating with the politics of today is that there is no real debate about issues like this one and others. Instead it's about a political parties history and how horrible they were, or a popularity contest with people looking at which candidate has a better haircut or proper military experience to lead the country... BAH! I think we could all learn a lesson from a decent legacy

If only people would look for this type of leadership instead of waiting to be spoonfed with it. Maybe then, an issue like crime and what to do with it will be properly addressed. And I wouldn't be surprised if the States has to deal with the same thing Canada has to deal with... white collar crime in government.

Condor offered you some excellent suggestions and I invite your own. I am angling, here, for some intelligent explanation for what is wrong with Blacks. All I hear are these Republican genetic explanations as to why they don't succeed, things like, they commit most of the crimes, they don't stick together, they pull themselves down, they don't act responsibly, with no explanation. We are just left to infer that the proponents of these views view them as inferior with no other choice than a genetic explanation. It is for this reason that I have labeled the Republican approach to Blacks as nothing but racism.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: mOeeOm
Or maybe black people are doing more crime than any other race? Just a thought...

for petty crimes blacks probably just get caught more often, for violent crimes, way to many people simply own way to many guns and there isn't enough NBA scholarships to go around

 

[alchemize]

What's really incredible is how good the Republicans are at convincing others of being racist nazis. I mean - it's easy to eat black babies and plot how to bring more crack into the ghetto, but the other 1/2 of society is amazing!

They've convinced:

Democrat legislators to pass "crimes" laws clearly targeted against blacks
Democrat "crime" victims to make complaints against blacks
Democrat police officers to arrest blacks for "crimes"
Democrat DA's to press chargest for "crimes"
Democrats on juries to convict for "crimes"
Democrat judges to sentence for "crimes"
Democrat parole boards to keep blacks in jail for their "crimes"

And of course, they've convinced democrats to behave the opposite on white collar crime! Bravo, our white hooded ubermenschen!

 

[Whaspe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Whaspe
What I find frustrating with the politics of today is that there is no real debate about issues like this one and others. Instead it's about a political parties history and how horrible they were, or a popularity contest with people looking at which candidate has a better haircut or proper military experience to lead the country... BAH! I think we could all learn a lesson from a decent legacy

If only people would look for this type of leadership instead of waiting to be spoonfed with it. Maybe then, an issue like crime and what to do with it will be properly addressed. And I wouldn't be surprised if the States has to deal with the same thing Canada has to deal with... white collar crime in government.

Condor offered you some excellent suggestions and I invite your own. I am angling, here, for some intelligent explanation for what is wrong with Blacks. All I hear are these Republican genetic explanations as to why they don't succeed, things like, they commit most of the crimes, they don't stick together, they pull themselves down, they don't act responsibly, with no explanation. We are just left to infer that the proponents of these views view them as inferior with no other choice than a genetic explanation. It is for this reason that I have labeled the Republican approach to Blacks as nothing but racism.

Well I'll try to take this issue on from both angles. If as the republicans claim, black people are the number one purportrators of what is currently defined as crime then we have a problem. However, correlation doesn't equal causation. I don't know what side of the political fence Bill Crosby is on but here's his stance on things. Being a prominent member of the black community and one who has personally been there, I would say his arguements bare some validation to them. In the case of white people the history of their treatment of african americans is dismal to say the least.

Getting back to the Republicans, I would argue that what they are saying is a half-truth. Like what I said in my earlier statement, there is no arguement or discourse as to what might be behind the statistics but instead the statistic is given as arguement enough and is used for propagandist and popularity means. Instead of sinking to the same level and attack these people as white supremists or racists I would rather see a legitimate arguement put forth that deals with the issue. Instead of treating people as sheep, if we present real facts and solutions then anyone can see these oppurtunists for what they are. In the end I don't see any one side as being absolutely right or wrong. There has been a history of suppression of black people's freedoms and rights, and as Bill Cosby mentions, elements of black culture have embraced mediocrity. So, I'd like to see reforms both on issues of criminality and support for promoting positive values and education within empoverished black communities.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Whaspe

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Whaspe
What I find frustrating with the politics of today is that there is no real debate about issues like this one and others. Instead it's about a political parties history and how horrible they were, or a popularity contest with people looking at which candidate has a better haircut or proper military experience to lead the country... BAH! I think we could all learn a lesson from a decent legacy

If only people would look for this type of leadership instead of waiting to be spoonfed with it. Maybe then, an issue like crime and what to do with it will be properly addressed. And I wouldn't be surprised if the States has to deal with the same thing Canada has to deal with... white collar crime in government.

Condor offered you some excellent suggestions and I invite your own. I am angling, here, for some intelligent explanation for what is wrong with Blacks. All I hear are these Republican genetic explanations as to why they don't succeed, things like, they commit most of the crimes, they don't stick together, they pull themselves down, they don't act responsibly, with no explanation. We are just left to infer that the proponents of these views view them as inferior with no other choice than a genetic explanation. It is for this reason that I have labeled the Republican approach to Blacks as nothing but racism.

Well I'll try to take this issue on from both angles. If as the republicans claim, black people are the number one purportrators of what is currently defined as crime then we have a problem. However, correlation doesn't equal causation. I don't know what side of the political fence Bill Crosby is on but here's his stance on things. Being a prominent member of the black community and one who has personally been there, I would say his arguements bare some validation to them. In the case of white people the history of their treatment of african americans is dismal to say the least.

Getting back to the Republicans, I would argue that what they are saying is a half-truth. Like what I said in my earlier statement, there is no arguement or discourse as to what might be behind the statistics but instead the statistic is given as arguement enough and is used for propagandist and popularity means. Instead of sinking to the same level and attack these people as white supremists or racists I would rather see a legitimate arguement put forth that deals with the issue. Instead of treating people as sheep, if we present real facts and solutions then anyone can see these oppurtunists for what they are. In the end I don't see any one side as being absolutely right or wrong. There has been a history of suppression of black people's freedoms and rights, and as Bill Cosby mentions, elements of black culture have embraced mediocrity. So, I'd like to see reforms both on issues of criminality and support for promoting positive values and education within empoverished black communities.

Both Clinton and Bush are against legalization of drugs, unlike Condor and me, but this thing about promoting positive values sounds an awful lot like forced charity from the rich to the poor and namby pamby. As one of those crabs in the pot, I'm not sure I want people getting out that I was using to stand on. Maybe Condor, here, will be better than me. 🙂

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: alchemize
What's really incredible is how good the Republicans are at convincing others of being racist nazis. I mean - it's easy to eat black babies and plot how to bring more crack into the ghetto, but the other 1/2 of society is amazing!

They've convinced:

Democrat legislators to pass "crimes" laws clearly targeted against blacks
Democrat "crime" victims to make complaints against blacks
Democrat police officers to arrest blacks for "crimes"
Democrat DA's to press chargest for "crimes"
Democrats on juries to convict for "crimes"
Democrat judges to sentence for "crimes"
Democrat parole boards to keep blacks in jail for their "crimes"

And of course, they've convinced democrats to behave the opposite on white collar crime! Bravo, our white hooded ubermenschen!

They are also voting in droves for national security and national defense not to mention war in Iraq. Democrats are 'me too' in the race to the bottom. Hell. Democrats are now studying the Bible and soon will be holier than thou.

 

[Whaspe]

Forced charity? Would you argue that it is detrimental to the country as a whole to encourage education and promote value and character in one of the lower classes of society? I would agree that forcing such education and values onto someone is a waste of time and resource, but then what do you do? The current solution is to put these people into prison and at $100,000 a head (in Canada) that's no better.

 

[Whaspe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: alchemize
What's really incredible is how good the Republicans are at convincing others of being racist nazis. I mean - it's easy to eat black babies and plot how to bring more crack into the ghetto, but the other 1/2 of society is amazing!

They've convinced:

Democrat legislators to pass "crimes" laws clearly targeted against blacks
Democrat "crime" victims to make complaints against blacks
Democrat police officers to arrest blacks for "crimes"
Democrat DA's to press chargest for "crimes"
Democrats on juries to convict for "crimes"
Democrat judges to sentence for "crimes"
Democrat parole boards to keep blacks in jail for their "crimes"

And of course, they've convinced democrats to behave the opposite on white collar crime! Bravo, our white hooded ubermenschen!

They are also voting in droves for national security and national defense not to mention war in Iraq. Democrats are 'me too' in the race to the bottom. Hell. Democrats are now studying the Bible and soon will be holier than thou.

😉 So you're predicting a race between two televangelists in 2008? 😀