islam

[Albatross]

i posted this in the thread with mahommed cartoons and nobody really addressed my point.
here it is:

"yes.and the problem is this.muslims believe that god send an angel to earth to dictate the final "word",which is therefore perfect.so any other concept as freedom,unislamic laws and customs take a back seat in muslim`s eyes,in fact they become irrelevant.so why should i,as a muslim, respect the laws of denmark,for example?
after all i respect THE DEFINITIVE WORD OF GOD ON EARTH,fvck everything else.

so,IMO,islam and the west,in fact the rest of the world, are heading for a showdown.
this also happend in europe,in the 30 years war which ended with the westphallian peace,which set the foundation of modernity,that is tolerance. "

discuss.

 

[Agrooreo]

Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

 

[firewall]

Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

thread----> :thumbsdown:

/thread

 

[Vic]

The real issue is not that people are trying to force their beliefs on other people, but that people continue to be afraid of other people's beliefs. Give it a fsckin' rest and quit acting the bigot trying to stereotype a billion-plus people into one image.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

christians interpret the bible,christianity was reformed;islam can`t be reformed,it`s the literal word of god.and i think that problem with cartoons it`s exactly a reflection of this.

 

[Agrooreo]

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

christians interpret the bible,christianity was reformed;islam can`t be reformed,it`s the literal word of god.and i think that problem with cartoons it`s exactly a reflection of this.

Do you honestly think there would be no uproar at all if the same type of deragotory (sp?) cartoon of the virigin mary came out and was published?

 

[magomago]

Wow could you edit that thing...it was hard to read. Seriously I'm not trying to insult or make you seem "less" or "weaker" at the start of my point, but add in full sentences, capitalization, and some words lke "westphallian" which I don't understand

I'm having trouble understanding what you ask though.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Agrooreo

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

christians interpret the bible,christianity was reformed;islam can`t be reformed,it`s the literal word of god.and i think that problem with cartoons it`s exactly a reflection of this.

Do you honestly think there would be no uproar at all if the same type of deragotory (sp?) cartoon of the virigin mary came out and was published?

Well I don't read the paper all that often as the internet has displaced the paper for me, but I myself have haven't seen political cartoon making fun of Mary or Jesus. If I came across it myself I would be offended, and if the e-mail was there I would message them.

Btw Vic has it right :thumbsup:

 

[Kadarin]

Muslims in general appear to not be able to tolerate things they consider an affront to Islam, nor even things that are highly critical of Islam, even if those things are legal in the country in which they're presented. Witness the murder of Theo van Gogh for example.

You may find Muslims out there who say that Theo van Gogh should not have been murdered. However, I doubt you will find a SINGLE Muslim ANYWHERE who will say that Theo van Gogh had the right to make the movie that he did. IIRC, Muslims consider themselves to be Muslim first and foremost, and the laws and customs of the country of their residence come (a distant) second.

The same concept can be applied to the cartoon issue.

 

[Agrooreo]

Hey Vic,

Been thinking about it and I cant quite grasp what your saying. Who's afraid the muslim's for being so upset about this or the people who printed it knowing they would upset the muslims?

Thanks for sorting this out for me.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Agrooreo

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

christians interpret the bible,christianity was reformed;islam can`t be reformed,it`s the literal word of god.and i think that problem with cartoons it`s exactly a reflection of this.

Do you honestly think there would be no uproar at all if the same type of deragotory (sp?) cartoon of the virigin mary came out and was published?

muslims in europe are growing.what makes you think that in a few decades some other,more serious issues won`t appear?
if there is such a huge uproar over some cartoons,and muslims demanding that the government apologise for a free press,why shouldn`t i think that in the future we will have some variant of sharia?

i think there is also a problem with the native population in europe:if a group believes only in a "weak" god,such as the god of prosperity,and another group believes in a "strong" god,such as allah,the last god will always win.
if denmark will apologise for a free press do you think that it will stop to this?
and yes those cartoons were provocative and in bad taste.but people should be allowed to say anything,which muslims apparently don`t agree with .

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: magomago
Wow could you edit that thing...it was hard to read. Seriously I'm not trying to insult or make you seem "less" or "weaker" at the start of my point, but add in full sentences, capitalization, and some words lke "westphallian" which I don't understand

I'm having trouble understanding what you ask though.

Text

 

[Agrooreo]

Honestly I believe in free speech as much as the next guy but does that mean that a newspaper should set out with the intention to start a huge problem with millions of people just cause they can? Theres a line that even with free speech people shouldn't purposely cross it just cause they can. But then that would only work in a perfect society I guess.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Honestly I believe in free speech as much as the next guy but does that mean that a newspaper should set out with the intention to start a huge problem with millions of people just cause they can? Theres a line that even with free speech people shouldn't purposely cross it just cause they can. But then that would only work in a perfect society I guess.

The concept of "Free Speech" doesn't only apply to speech about things you happen to agree with. If that were the case, there would be no need for it.

 

[Agrooreo]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Honestly I believe in free speech as much as the next guy but does that mean that a newspaper should set out with the intention to start a huge problem with millions of people just cause they can? Theres a line that even with free speech people shouldn't purposely cross it just cause they can. But then that would only work in a perfect society I guess.

The concept of "Free Speech" doesn't only apply to speech about things you happen to agree with. If that were the case, there would be no need for it.

I realize that! What I was saying was that just because you have free speech doesn't mean you have to use it for no other point than to upset people which is exactly the aim sought out with these cartoons. No good was supposed to come out of this. I understand that free speech means people can do this if they want, but why shoud they? Just to upset people? Thats idiotic. free speech or not. Thats why I was saying I believe in free speech but not in someone using it to just insult/aggreviate someone for no reason. The only way around it is to have a perfect society or no free speech. Which is the catch 22 i was referring to.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Vic
The real issue is not that people are trying to force their beliefs on other people, but that people continue to be afraid of other people's beliefs. Give it a fsckin' rest and quit acting the bigot trying to stereotype a billion-plus people into one image.

Wow! Bravo! I'm standing up and clapping like I'm at the SOTU.

Seriously, albatross, the vast majority of Muslims are everyday people. They enjoy freedom, they follow the laws of the country they reside in, they value their own culture but don't frown upon others...they are like a lot of other religious people. And a lot aren't even that religious; some just choose to go through the daily grind.

I have a lot of Muslim friends at Intel, and AFAIK they follow all the laws of my state and the US just as well as Christian/Jewish/Atheist people.

I have Muslim friends that I met in college that are barely religious at all; they may have been born in another country, but they grew up in the US and have adopted American culture wholeheartedly. Islam may forbid alcohol, but my Muslim friends attended as many 'wet' parties as I did.

Try to imagine for a second what you and many others in this forum are doing. Imagine 1.3+ billion people spread across the world, in nations with a variety of histories. Do you think Indonesian Muslims can fully relate to Yugoslavian Muslims? Do you think Muslims in Chechnya can fully relate to Muslims in Kuwait? The answer is no. Some have histories rich in culture, some have histories filled with persecution and genocide, some have been raised in free societies, some have been raised in dictatoships...

It's so varied, yet you and others continually try to lump them all together around whatever rallying cry Faux News or GWB uses to sway your emotions. You perpetuate the cycle of hate by allowing the actions of a few extremists to cloud your perception about the other 1.2999 billion Muslims.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Vic
The real issue is not that people are trying to force their beliefs on other people, but that people continue to be afraid of other people's beliefs. Give it a fsckin' rest and quit acting the bigot trying to stereotype a billion-plus people into one image.

Wow! Bravo! I'm standing up and clapping like I'm at the SOTU.

Seriously, albatross, the vast majority of Muslims are everyday people. They enjoy freedom, they follow the laws of the country they reside in, they value their own culture but don't frown upon others...they are like a lot of other religious people. And a lot aren't even that religious; some just choose to go through the daily grind.

I have a lot of Muslim friends at Intel, and AFAIK they follow all the laws of my state and the US just as well as Christian/Jewish/Atheist people.

I have Muslim friends that I met in college that are barely religious at all; they may have been born in another country, but they grew up in the US and have adopted American culture wholeheartedly. Islam may forbid alcohol, but my Muslim friends attended as many 'wet' parties as I did.

Try to imagine for a second what you and many others in this forum are doing. Imagine 1.3+ billion people spread across the world, in nations with a variety of histories. Do you think Indonesian Muslims can fully relate to Yugoslavian Muslims? Do you think Muslims in Chechnya can fully relate to Muslims in Kuwait? The answer is no. Some have histories rich in culture, some have histories filled with persecution and genocide, some have been raised in free societies, some have been raised in dictatoships...

It's so varied, yet you and others continually try to lump them all together around whatever rallying cry Faux News or GWB uses to sway your emotions. You perpetuate the cycle of hate by allowing the actions of a few extremists to cloud your perception about the other 1.2999 billion Muslims.

i think we can agree for the most part,except "perpetuating the cycle of hate".
the question i`m asking is this;can the difference between freedom of speech and censorship relate to demography?
a muslim majority in an european country will alow freedom of speech or not?
it is just the white majority who keeps freedon of speech or not?
and of course muslims are regular people,but as we saw in France violence can be and it is extremly contagious.the iraqis are regular people(suni-shia),the labanese were regular people(christian_muslims) etc.
what if one day religion becomes relevant?

 

[sandorski]

You don't make friends by slapping them in the face.

There was a time when Christians would have acted the same way. Hell, I bet if those same European Newspapers exercised their Free Speech and printed pictures of Rats with Star of Davids on their arms, there'd be an equally loud uproar.

 

[0roo0roo]

its true, its fundamentally flawed as a religion, the literal and perfect word of god and all its horrors cannot be interpreted away. you have no ground to stand on. its not some scribbles by diciples and 2nd hand accounts like that of the bible and such, atleast theres some hope there. the islamic god is a monster, and to worship a monster is to be a follower of evil. sure..you can be a good person, by being a bad muslim. people talk about this as if something that must exist, that it somehow deserves some kind of unearned reverence by default. sorry, its not skin color or gender, something this corrupt should not be protected.

and btw, santa doesn't exist!! oh teh horror!!

 

[Moonbeam]

Their should be no problem when everybody converts to Islam. It will also mean the Earth won't be easily knocked over by any potential alien invasion. Ten billion suicide bombers would be one heck of a challenge.

---

If your comment was intended as sarcasm, please be more clear about indicating that is the case. If not, your post is a broad, bigoted generalization, and any repetition will be the reason you will be posting elsewhere for awhile.

AnandTech Moderator

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Their should be no problem when everybody converts to Islam. It will also mean the Earth won't be easily knocked over by any potential alien invasion. Ten billion suicide bombers would be one heck of a challenge.

The problem is, Islam and Christians are both crazy. Under those conditions, there can be no peace. I'm not saying that you can't believe in God, if you want to, but please just stop spewing it all over everyone, all the time.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Agrooreo

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: Agrooreo
Dont really see what the difference between Muslims saying we all have to follow their rules and Christians attempting to do the same. Beliefs are beliefs and everyone seems to have a problem trying to enforce their's on everyone else. Maybe its just me but thats how I see it.

christians interpret the bible,christianity was reformed;islam can`t be reformed,it`s the literal word of god.and i think that problem with cartoons it`s exactly a reflection of this.

Do you honestly think there would be no uproar at all if the same type of deragotory (sp?) cartoon of the virigin mary came out and was published?

Have you been living under a rock? That stuff is out there. Its just that christians won't threaten to cut off your head. Matt Damon starred in Dogma. The is no catholic fatwah calling for his death. William Dafoe is still alive and kicking after starring in The LAst TEmptation of Christ. I've seen newspaper editorials chastising the pope. People get upset, but not in the same way muslims feel offended is they see a caricature of mohammed.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Their should be no problem when everybody converts to Islam. It will also mean the Earth won't be easily knocked over by any potential alien invasion. Ten billion suicide bombers would be one heck of a challenge.

Suicide bombings have nothing to do with Islam

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Their should be no problem when everybody converts to Islam. It will also mean the Earth won't be easily knocked over by any potential alien invasion. Ten billion suicide bombers would be one heck of a challenge.

Suicide bombings have nothing to do with Islam

What is the percentage of suicide bombers who are NOT Muslim?

 

[compuwiz1]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Their should be no problem when everybody converts to Islam. It will also mean the Earth won't be easily knocked over by any potential alien invasion. Ten billion suicide bombers would be one heck of a challenge.

Suicide bombings have nothing to do with Islam

Does Islam=Muslim religion?

I'm sure, then Islam has nothing to do with suicide bombings. Where did jihad come from then, scholar?