ISIS flag flown in east London

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inf1nity

Golden Member
Mar 12, 2013
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All that proves is that muslims have abused women... not to mention the fact that those stories are two and three years old.

It proves that Muslim men specifically target white women. The stroy being old has nothing to do with it. As unchecked immigration to UK increases, this problem will get worse.

It doesn't show that the UK has a problem with gangs of Pakistani men preying on white women.

Wait... what? Those Muslims that you're talking about above.. did they come from Pluto? :rolleyes:
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
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It proves that Muslim men specifically target white women. The stroy being old has nothing to do with it. As unchecked immigration to UK increases, this problem will get worse.

Wait... what? Those Muslims that you're talking about above.. did they come from Pluto? :rolleyes:

Again, it shows that some Muslim men have specifically targeted white women and the fact that the story is old speaks volumes, unless you think posting stories about Jack the Ripper means the UK has a 'problem' with men killing prostitutes.

The UK doesn't have unchecked immigration either.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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What does this even mean? Everyone here in the UK has roundly criticised ISIS and the people who are trying to drum up support for them.

It's not well received here either.

And yet the flag still flies despite being a statement in direct support of religion-fueled terrorism, genocide, and a lot of other nasty stuff.

Free speech is one thing, but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, and you shouldn't be allowed to sponsor terrorism, financially or otherwise. It's not even like we're talking a Nazi flag as the Nazis are long dead and what remains is more ideology than army. That flag is the equivalent of someone in WWII knowing about the concentration camps and still flying the Nazi flag anyway. To tolerate it is to tolerate a small infiltrator from a malignant tumor.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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And yet the flag still flies despite being a statement in direct support of religion-fueled terrorism, genocide, and a lot of other nasty stuff.

Free speech is one thing, but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, and you shouldn't be allowed to sponsor terrorism, financially or otherwise. It's not even like we're talking a Nazi flag as the Nazis are long dead and what remains is more ideology than army. That flag is the equivalent of someone in WWII knowing about the concentration camps and still flying the Nazi flag anyway. To tolerate it is to tolerate a small infiltrator from a malignant tumor.

Thought Crime detected! Thought Crime detected! Sound the alarms! Thought Crime detected!
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
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And yet the flag still flies despite being a statement in direct support of religion-fueled terrorism, genocide, and a lot of other nasty stuff.

Free speech is one thing, but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, and you shouldn't be allowed to sponsor terrorism, financially or otherwise. It's not even like we're talking a Nazi flag as the Nazis are long dead and what remains is more ideology than army. That flag is the equivalent of someone in WWII knowing about the concentration camps and still flying the Nazi flag anyway. To tolerate it is to tolerate a small infiltrator from a malignant tumor.

It's one flag in one area on one housing estate in one of the poorest parts of the city and your Nazi comparison suggests you're not quite as familiar with 1930s anti-Semitism as you think you are.

You'll see the Confederate flag being flown in plenty of places in the Southern States of the US.
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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Thought Crime detected! Thought Crime detected! Sound the alarms! Thought Crime detected!

Yes, calling someone out on what they're publicly displaying is being the thought police. :rolleyes:

Try harder. Hell try accusing me of double-think next, that'll be good for a laugh.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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It's one flag in one area on one housing estate in one of the poorest parts of the city and your Nazi comparison suggests you're not quite as familiar with 1930s anti-Semitism as you think you are.

You'll see the Confederate flag being flown in plenty of places in the Southern States of the US.

And the confederacy has been dead for over 150 years, as has the ideology of slavery. Even today those that fly the confederate flag do so more as an extreme symbol of states' rights, laughably few advocate a return to slavery, which was the only real crime the confederacy was committing IMO. By contrast, ISIS is very much alive and is committing atrocities as we speak. To fly their flag is to directly support those atrocities. I'm not saying the people who hung up the flag should be arrested or anything, but the flag should be taken down and shouldn't be permitted to fly in public. I don't care if it's on some no-name islet off the coast.
 
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Nov 25, 2013
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Yes, calling someone out on what they're publicly displaying is being the thought police. :rolleyes:

Try harder. Hell try accusing me of double-think next, that'll be good for a laugh.

Didn't have to try all that hard as in your next post you wrote:

"To fly their flag is to directly support those atrocities. I'm not saying the people who hung up the flag should be arrested or anything, but the flag should be taken down and shouldn't be permitted to fly in public."

Call people out all you want. That is not "calling someone out". It is punishing thought.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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Didn't have to try all that hard as in your next post you wrote:

"To fly their flag is to directly support those atrocities. I'm not saying the people who hung up the flag should be arrested or anything, but the flag should be taken down and shouldn't be permitted to fly in public."

Call people out all you want. That is not "calling someone out". It is punishing thought.

No, it's punishing the public display of support for religious genocide, and mildly punishing it at that. Sorry if that doesn't play into your over-generalized self-gratifying spin (comparing me to Orwell's Ministry of Thought, lol). They can plaster the inside of their homes with that flag for all I care, but it shouldn't be permitted in public. It's borderline terrorist recruitment and attempts to incite religious violence (see the comments of the gang protecting the flag).
 
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No, it's punishing the public display of support for religious genocide, and mildly punishing it at that. Sorry if that doesn't play into your over-generalized self-gratifying spin. They can plaster the inside of their homes with that flag for all I care, but it shouldn't be permitted in public.

John Stuart Mill said it far better than I can:

I choose, by preference the cases which are least favourable to me – In which the argument opposing freedom of opinion, both on truth and that of utility, is considered the strongest. Let the opinions impugned be the belief of God and in a future state, or any of the commonly received doctrines of morality... But I must be permitted to observe that it is not the feeling sure of a doctrine (be it what it may) which I call an assumption of infallibility. It is the undertaking to decide that question for others, without allowing them to hear what can be said on the contrary side. And I denounce and reprobate this pretension not the less if it is put forth on the side of my most solemn convictions. However, positive anyone's persuasion may be, not only of the faculty but of the pernicious consequences, but (to adopt expressions which I altogether condemn) the immorality and impiety of opinion. – yet if, in pursuance of that private judgement, though backed by the public judgement of his country or contemporaries, he prevents the opinion from being heard in its defence, he assumes infallibility. And so far from the assumption being less objectionable or less dangerous because the opinion is called immoral or impious, this is the case of all others in which it is most fatal.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill#Freedom_of_speech

You either have freedom of thought and expression or you don't.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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John Stuart Mill said it far better than I can:

I choose, by preference the cases which are least favourable to me – In which the argument opposing freedom of opinion, both on truth and that of utility, is considered the strongest. Let the opinions impugned be the belief of God and in a future state, or any of the commonly received doctrines of morality... But I must be permitted to observe that it is not the feeling sure of a doctrine (be it what it may) which I call an assumption of infallibility. It is the undertaking to decide that question for others, without allowing them to hear what can be said on the contrary side. And I denounce and reprobate this pretension not the less if it is put forth on the side of my most solemn convictions. However, positive anyone's persuasion may be, not only of the faculty but of the pernicious consequences, but (to adopt expressions which I altogether condemn) the immorality and impiety of opinion. – yet if, in pursuance of that private judgement, though backed by the public judgement of his country or contemporaries, he prevents the opinion from being heard in its defence, he assumes infallibility. And so far from the assumption being less objectionable or less dangerous because the opinion is called immoral or impious, this is the case of all others in which it is most fatal.[24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill#Freedom_of_speech

You either have freedom of thought and expression or you don't.

You either have the ability to think in shades of gray, or you don't (or you won't). By your logic free speech has never existed. No government, not even the most liberal ones, allow 100% freedom of speech and for very good reasons. You are not allowed to incite violence or otherwise physically endanger others through speech.

That quote deals with intellectual questions of morality and piety, but that's not entirely what we're dealing with here. That flag is the battle standard of a state that has and would at this very moment be committing shameless religious and ethnic genocide if not for Western intervention, and they're still trying to do so in spite of said intervention. I'd say flying such a flag endangers innocents. If it earns ISIS enough money to buy one more bullet, or one more can of paint to mark Christian homes, it will have been too much; and that scenario is hardly unlikely.

Assumption of infallibility? Yes, I will assume that my view "genocide is always wrong and is always indefensible" is infallible. I feel pretty damn comfortable in that assumption given any realistic scenario.

Sweeping philosophies are great and eloquent until you start applying them to specific real-world situations. None of them stay perfectly intact, and those that try to do so merely shatter.
 
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Nov 25, 2013
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You either have the ability to think in shades of gray, or you don't (or you won't). By your logic free speech has never existed. No government, not even the most liberal ones, allow 100% freedom of speech and for very good reasons. You are not allowed to incite violence or otherwise physically endanger others through speech.

That quote deals with intellectual questions of morality and piety, but that's not entirely what we're dealing with here. That flag is the battle standard of a state that has and would at this very moment be committing shameless religious and ethnic genocide if not for Western intervention, and they're still trying to do so in spite of said intervention. I'd say flying such a flag endangers innocents. If it earns ISIS enough money to buy one more bullet, or one more can of paint to mark Christian homes, it will have been too much; and that scenario is hardly unlikely.

Assumption of infallibility? Yes, I will assume that my view "genocide is always wrong and is always indefensible" is infallible. I feel pretty damn comfortable in that assumption given any realistic scenario.

Sweeping philosophies are great and eloquent until you start applying them to specific real-world situations. None of them stay perfectly intact, and those that try to do so merely shatter.

So, no displaying a piece of cloth that looks like the flag that ISIL is using?

No displaying the Nazi flag?

No displaying of the Communist Chinese flag?

No displaying of the British flag?

No displaying of the flag used by the USSR?

No displaying the American flag?

Every single one of those flags has been used to inspire everything from murder to theft to slavery to genocide. They are still only pieces of cloth in the end.

Have a nice evening.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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And yet the flag still flies

No it doesn't.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...aza-remain-high-in-tower-hamlets-9662553.html

Hey, guess what just happened in America!

http://www.newsmax.com/US/ISIS-flag-NJ-hang/2014/08/14/id/588751/

Is it the turn of foreigners to make sweeping statements about Americans now despite the fact that we haven't lived there but obviously we know everything about it because we read the American equivalent of the Daily Mail, the obvious objectives of all/most Muslims in America, throw in some "they're all the same" type statements when summing up the desires of millions of people, how tolerance is going to ruin America... blah, blah, blah...
 
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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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So, no displaying a piece of cloth that looks like the flag that ISIL is using?

No displaying the Nazi flag?

No displaying of the Communist Chinese flag?

No displaying of the British flag?

No displaying of the flag used by the USSR?

No displaying the American flag?

Every single one of those flags has been used to inspire everything from murder to theft to slavery to genocide. They are still only pieces of cloth in the end.

Have a nice evening.

Once again, can you argue without descending into sweeping generalizations? There is one context:

Time: Present Day
Subject: ISIS flag in London
Related: ISIS actively prosecuting genocide, extreme religious persecution and holy war as part of stated purpose for existence.
Question: Should the flag representing and attempting to attract support for the above be allowed to fly?

Whatever any flag stood for generations ago is irrelevant. Right now the ISIS flag directly incites violence and genocide. Not the idea or moral perspective of religious violence and genocide, but actual, happening at this very second, religious violence and genocide. In fact judging by the statements of those who raised the flag, their goal was to incite violence. They openly admitted that "things would be different" if a Jew had challenged it.

If so much as one innocent dies however indirectly from that flag's presence, which is hardly an unlikely outcome given ISIS's nature and current activities, I'm sure the family will be greatly comforted to know that their loved one was murdered as a sacrifice on the alter of 100% free speech; in righteous defiance of those tyrannical influences that would insist on an unacceptable level of 95% free speech. :rolleyes:

Good night!
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
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And the confederacy has been dead for over 150 years, as has the ideology of slavery.

The ideology of slavery is very much alive and well in the world and is practised in one way or another by, you guessed it, ISIS.

Even today those that fly the confederate flag do so more as an extreme symbol of states' rights, laughably few advocate a return to slavery, which was the only real crime the confederacy was committing IMO. By contrast, ISIS is very much alive and is committing atrocities as we speak. To fly their flag is to directly support those atrocities. I'm not saying the people who hung up the flag should be arrested or anything, but the flag should be taken down and shouldn't be permitted to fly in public. I don't care if it's on some no-name islet off the coast.

At least be consistent with this.

Flying the Confederate flag, a symbol of slavery and a needless war that killed half a million men, is fine because it's nuanced and those who display it don't support everything it stood for.

Flying the ISIS flag is bad because you can put the word 'terrorist' in front of it and those who display it automagically support every single thing they stand for.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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No it doesn't.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...aza-remain-high-in-tower-hamlets-9662553.html

Hey, guess what just happened in America!

http://www.newsmax.com/US/ISIS-flag-NJ-hang/2014/08/14/id/588751/

Is it the turn of foreigners to make sweeping statements about Americans now despite the fact that we haven't lived there but obviously we know everything about it because we read the American equivalent of the Daily Mail, the obvious objectives of all/most Muslims in America, throw in some "they're all the same" type statements when summing up the desires of millions of people, how tolerance is going to ruin America... blah, blah, blah...

It was when I posted that, but good that it's been taken down. Also I feel for the NJ guy, but such is reality. I'm certainly not shocked to find ISIS co-opting a generic symbol as their own. Fact is we don't get to define how people perceive symbols. If I hang up a Swastika simply because I think the design looks cool, I still can't really complain if people take it the wrong way.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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It was when I posted that,

No it wasn't. That article is dated Monday.

but good that it's been taken down. Also I feel for the NJ guy, but such is reality.

Why's that? What makes you sure that his motivations aren't the same as what you perceive the motivations of those in Poplar to be?

If I hang up a Swastika simply because I think the design looks cool, I still can't really complain if people take it the wrong way.

So should we erase all non-Nazi-type references to the Swastika to appease peoples' ignorance?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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The ideology of slavery is very much alive and well in the world and is practised in one way or another by, you guessed it, ISIS.

The ideology of slavery in the US, smart guy. We were talking about the confederate flag.


At least be consistent with this.

Flying the Confederate flag, a symbol of slavery and a needless war that killed half a million men, is fine because it's nuanced and those who display it don't support everything it stood for.

Flying the ISIS flag is bad because you can put the word 'terrorist' in front of it and those who display it automagically support every single thing they stand for.

You people just can't get enough of the context shifting can you? This isn't about symbols or free speech or morality, this is about a threat to people's lives.

The year is 2014. Today, the ISIS flag can directly incite religious violence and, if it succeeds in gaining support for ISIS, can indirectly or directly aid in genocide and religious persecution. This is not a small probability. The confederate flag cannot and does not do any of that.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
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The ideology of slavery in the US, smart guy. We were talking about the confederate flag.

We were talking about your claim of how that type of thing, the ISIS flag, wouldn't be tolerated in the US.

You people just can't get enough of the context shifting can you? This isn't about symbols or free speech or morality, this is about a threat to people's lives.

The year is 2014. Today, the ISIS flag can directly incite religious violence and, if it succeeds in gaining support for ISIS, can indirectly or directly aid in genocide and religious persecution. This is not a small probability. The confederate flag cannot and does not do any of that.

If you genuinely think that flying of these ISIS flags in the UK and the US is going to aid genocide and religious persecution then I can only conclude that you've been reading too many Tom Clancy books.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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No it wasn't. That article is dated Monday.

So I missed the news article about it being taken down. So sue me, smartass.


Why's that? What makes you sure that his motivations aren't the same as what you perceive the motivations of those in Poplar to be?

Because I give people the benefit of the doubt. Read the quotes in the article of the OP, quite a bit different from the NJ guy.


So should we erase all non-Nazi-type references to the Swastika to appease peoples' ignorance?

We already have by consensus. How many swastikas do you see in common designs... anywhere? And I'm not talking buried in some other pattern, I'm talking isolated, complete swastikas. You'll be hard pressed to find them.

Yes it would be great if we could just read each others' minds and know intentions instantly. Hell maybe one day we'll have cranial implants that allow us to do exactly that. In the meantime imperfect system is imperfect, and popular opinion is popular. Martyring yourself in the court of public opinion over something as small as a flag isn't going to change anything, and can potentially deny you opportunities to inflict greater positive change later. It's not fair, it's not right, and there's no way to make it fair or right in the moment. It's simply reality, and attempting to directly apply philosophy will be about as effective as a water balloon in a forest fire.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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Please describe how it does this and provide historical examples.

How about from the OP, or did you not read it?

When a passerby tried to take a picture of the flag on a phone, one of the gang asked him if he was Jewish. The passerby replied: "Would it make a difference?" The youth said: "Yes, it fucking would." Asked if the flag was an Isis flag, one local man said: "It is just the flag of Allah." But another man asked: "So what if it is?"
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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If you genuinely think that flying of these ISIS flags in the UK and the US is going to aid genocide and religious persecution then I can only conclude that you've been reading too many Tom Clancy books.

So you'd be fine with Al-Qaeda or Taliban flags being flown? Because right now ISIS is arguably worse than Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

As I stated earlier, if it gets them so much as .50 to buy one more bullet, or sways one young, poor undereducated Muslim on the fence to become an ISIS fighter, it's not worth it IMO. ISIS stands for genocide and religious persecution, it's how they came to power and it's their stated reason for existing (albeit framed in radical Islamic rationalizations). Any and all support garnered for ISIS, no matter how small will be put into furthering those ends, there's simply nowhere else for it to go given their current behavior.

But whatever. If you really think people publicly rallying support for such a cause is harmless, I can only conclude that your knowledge of free speech is rather shallow and naive.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
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So you'd be fine with Al-Qaeda or Taliban flags being flown? Because right now ISIS is arguably worse than Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

As I stated earlier, if it gets them so much as .50 to buy one more bullet, or sways one young, poor undereducated Muslim on the fence to become an ISIS fighter, it's not worth it IMO. ISIS stands for genocide and religious persecution, it's how they came to power and it's their stated reason for existing (albeit framed in radical Islamic rationalizations). Any and all support garnered for ISIS, no matter how small will be put into furthering those ends, there's simply nowhere else for it to go given their current behavior.

But whatever. If you really think people publicly rallying support for such a cause is harmless, I can only conclude that your knowledge of free speech is rather shallow and naive.

I haven't mentioned free speech at all.

Is flying the Confederate flag worth it if it inspires one disaffected youth to join the KKK or some other racist group?

Getting your knickers in a twist about isolated incidents like this is shallow and naive.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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So I missed the news article about it being taken down. So sue me, smartass.

How about you admit when you're wrong instead of trying to be right all the time? You can't expect to have a reasoned discussion if you're going into it with an attitude like that. If you don't want to have a reasoned discussion, and go into it like people like TH do (saying what they think until they're blue in the face and ignoring evidence / arguments to the contrary), then by all means feel free, but I'm not interested in listening to people ranting with their fingers in their ears.

It's not just the fact that you were wrong about thinking the flag was still up, your argument has been that the UK is going to tolerate itself out of existence. If the flag stayed up, then while your point was a touch hyperbolic to say the least, it's a potentially valid argument standpoint. However, "flag that people have issues with gets put up, taken down a few days later" isn't a scenario that your argument can get its teeth into.

Because I give people the benefit of the doubt. Read the quotes in the article of the OP, quite a bit different from the NJ guy.
IMO they're just as ambiguous. One guy feels the need to hang a flag up that he knows could be misconstrued but gets his wording right, a group of guys do the same thing but don't, is a way of looking at it. While I'm only slightly more inclined to give the NJ guy the benefit of greater doubt, IMO there's little point in making a distinction because actions speak louder than words. The action in both cases is ONLY hanging a flag, which imparts very little information.

The "are you Jewish" wording is also ambiguous in its intent, because if the Poplar guys hung the flag as a protest about what's going on in Gaza, then it's plausible that they could have confused say Zionism (AFAIK) with Judaism, and so it would possibly matter to them whether someone is Jewish when they're asking questions.

We already have by consensus. How many swastikas do you see in common designs... anywhere? And I'm not talking buried in some other pattern, I'm talking isolated, complete swastikas. You'll be hard pressed to find them.
Considering that the Swastika was generally used in conjunction (pre Nazi era) with other symbolism (such as the Buddha or other symbolism commonly associated with encouraging peace), your question is pointless, but I've seen Swastikas in the UK with four dots between the lines in the centre of the symbol (which isn't associated with the Nazis). I think a hippy was wearing something with it the last time I saw it (PS, I'm in my thirties).

But to answer your question another way, I would only expect a complete idiot to start harassing some hippy because they had a visible Swastika on them. I wouldn't expect such an idiotic occurrence in say central London, but vaguely possibly (but still very unlikely) if one goes into poorer urban areas.

The problem in either case is the context, the flag is just a flag. People are likely to choose to read its presence depending based on their personal bias. Judging by this thread, lots of that around. A Swastika symbol that looks like the Nazi one in its style and say adorning the outfit of a skinhead is somewhat different to a Swastika that a hippy might have on their outfit.

And no, the OP is not an example of how a flag has directly caused religious violence, because there's no evidence of it causing that in Poplar, I think that's an example of your personal bias at work.
 
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