ISIS burns Jordanian Pilot alive

[werepossum]

I'm sorry but could you please explain that sentence? Did you mean "few Jordanians"?

There are actually a very large number of Jordanians within Daesh given how small of a country Jordan is. On the other hand they are right next to Syria so it would have been easier for people to slip through the border than if they had to travel farther distances.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...db4faa-5971-11e4-8264-deed989ae9a2_story.html

No, I meant what I typed. Fundamentalist Islamicists in Afghanistan or Iran have little reason to leave their nations because much of what they want is already part of the nation's fabric. Fundamentalist Islamicists in Jordan on the other hand aren't going to find their nation very conducive to Islamic fundamentalism. Not only is Islamic fundamentalism a danger to the king's power, Jordan is by nature a more moderate Islamic state. Thus fundamentalist Islamicists in Jordan have little chance of achieving a brutal Islamic theocracy in Jordan itself. If they wish to live in such a society, they must seek it elsewhere.

 

[blastingcap]

No, I meant what I typed. Fundamentalist Islamicists in Afghanistan or Iran have little reason to leave their nations because much of what they want is already part of the nation's fabric. Fundamentalist Islamicists in Jordan on the other hand aren't going to find their nation very conducive to Islamic fundamentalism. Not only is Islamic fundamentalism a danger to the king's power, Jordan is by nature a more moderate Islamic state. Thus fundamentalist Islamicists in Jordan have little chance of achieving a brutal Islamic theocracy in Jordan itself. If they wish to live in such a society, they must seek it elsewhere.

Interesting hypothesis, but the infographic shows that there are other factors at play, such as proximity and economic opportunities/employment rate, else you would see, for instance, more US Daesh.

 

[werepossum]

Interesting hypothesis, but the infographic shows that there are other factors at play, such as proximity and economic opportunities/employment rate, else you would see, for instance, more US Daesh.

I certainly wouldn't disagree with that. Very seldom is anything explained by only one factor.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

A lot can happen in 20 years. Might want to pull your head out and have a look see sometime.

Context matters. AFAIK no has said that Jordan can't fight Isis. Of course they can, but if it came to a knock down fight between an Arab country and Israel the latter would be found to have the better force as a whole. There is no war with ISIS. This is a military campaign against a paper tiger. They may be brutal but what air force do they have? Their advantage is mainly that of a head start. Their weakness is a lack of effective defense against superior forces and that the ultimate goal is nationhood, something they can't pack into a truck and move about. They are miserable SOBs but they can be rendered ineffective.

 

[oobydoobydoo]

It's quite long. I've read most of it.

I've got an idea for you:

Many here think ISIS made a huge strategic blunder by burning the pilot. Maybe, maybe not.

Strategy is more or less irrelevant to ISIS. Their "Strategy" is to conquer as much territory and loot as much as possible. They are the modern equivalent of mongol hordes to the people of Syria. That's not to say they can't employ ingenious tactics, just that their "strategic vision" is pretty much rule the world by the sword.

The killing of the pilot is just a manifestation of the absolute violence that permeates the core of their ideology. It really will make little difference beyond possibly hastening their end by a few months. Until a large power from Europe, the USA, Russia, Iran, or China intervenes in a big way, this is going to be a drawn out bloodbath that may end in years of violence after "peace" is declared.

I prefer not to underestimate them if possible, plus calculations are difficult to judge in that region. Quite complex, many unknowns, just hard to judge.

Did some undisciplined faction of ISIS kill without input from the higher ups? Or, was this intentional and part of some gambit?

IDK, but am leaning towards intentional.

Why?

My idea, or possibility, is draw in more recruits. How? Well, I'm not sure Jordan is all that loved by the rest of the Arabs over there.

Jordan, unlike other countries, has actually recognized Israel. And a good chunk of Jordan's population are Palestinian. Could they sway the Palestinians in Jordan to come to their (ISIS side)? What about other Arabs?

I mean Jordan started it. They were bombing ISIS first.

Jordan also has a mutual defense pact with Israel. What if ISIS moves to attack Jordan directly? Will Israel be compelled to enter the battle to defend Jordan's territory? If they did, think that would bring in a whole bunch of other Arabs to fight the Jews?

Israel is too clever, but it'll put them and Jordan in a tough spot if ISIS attacks directly.

Fern

ISIS has one goal: Draw the US into a ground war where they can use gorilla tactics effectively. They are good fighters, when they are in their element, but Obama won't commit troops for them to kill... so they have become very frustrated. Can you imagine if bombs were falling on the US, and nothing could be done about it at all? Thousands of people dying? They are pissed, and with no western nations nearby to invade, they are looking for anything resembling an American to execute.

Mark my words, if we get drawn into a ground war with ISIS it will end with thousands dead for absolutely no gain whatsoever. Undoubtedly we could crush ISIS, but they would continue to suicide bomb Syrian posts. Violence would not end, maybe die down until the US leaves, just like what happened with AQI.


For the record, I believe the execution of Al-Kaesasba was sanctioned by Baghdadi personally. Nobody would undertake this kind of execution with this much preparation and filming and editing without consulting the higher ups. It also probably took a few days to direct, plenty of time for Baghdadi to weigh in on what to do with the pilot. It's messed up, but Baghdadi is basically putting a big middle finger to Obama. The airstrikes are working.


I suggest we continue to bomb ISIS until their economy collapses and the SAA and Hezbollah deal with them. Houthis and Kathab al-Hezbollah already took care of ISIS in Yemen. Fox is whining about it, but it's good for the US. Shi'a arabs are our friends, and we need to work with Iran and Iraq to beat ISIS. Israel needs to butt out.

 

[blastingcap]

gorilla tactics

You may want to pipe down about how other people don't know what they're talking about, when you say stuff like that.

 

[oobydoobydoo]

You may want to pipe down about how other people don't know what they're talking about, when you say stuff like that.

Care to explain yourself? You make statements like that, without backing anything up, it makes you look like you are just blowing smoke. Do you not know what an insurgency is? Do you not understand how gorilla warfare works? I personally think you don't even understand this post I'm writing right now, nor do you understand any of the posts I wrote before it.

It is not my job to educate you on this stuff, but it would be nice if you said thank you. I've already given you a good account of Jordanian forces and ISIS. What have you given us? Not much.

 

[oobydoobydoo]

I have to go so here is the bottom line: ISIS can only kill American soldiers if we send them to die there. When we commit troops, we are sending somebody to die. It is my personal opinion that the President should not knowingly commit to a plan that involves American loss of life without extremely specific, verified, and found to be totally legitimate causes.


What exactly would we accomplish if we dropped 20,000 marines Kobane and had them push to ar-Raqqa? What did we get when we took Falluja in 2003? Then again in 2004? Damn, I sure am glad they took Falluja those two times! Now it's ours, not like Falluja could be conquered aga.... wait it's already back in enemy hands! LOL

 

[blastingcap]

Do you not understand how gorilla warfare works? I personally think you don't even understand this post I'm writing right now, nor do you understand any of the posts I wrote before it.

Chill out and have a banana, you blowhard clown.

 

[Ns1]

Do you not understand how gorilla warfare works?

 

[disappoint]

Ether way the lesson is that we must live with the consequences of our actions. We murder them, they react. They murder us, we react... Is this how it's going to be for the foreseeable future? In our lexicon they're known as 'savages' as we are in theirs, but there must be a way of defeating this escalation of violence. We start and (sort of) stop with the military. Have we tried everything else?

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," ~Jesus of Nazereth
Mathew 5:44

Actually they don't think of us as savages. They think of us as weak. They think they are stronger because they have the stomach for extreme violence.

As for the Jesus quote, how well did loving his enemies and praying for his persecutors work for him? He was tortured to death, then a bunch of bullshit stories told in his name after death. Is that what you want to happen to you? Maybe he was misunderstood. Maybe he meant prey on your enemies instead.

 

[yllus]

lol

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

They think they are stronger because they have the stomach for extreme violence.

An anti-superstition psychic

 

[MongGrel]

It's absolutely disgusting that we are giving MRAPs to American police departments rather than to the Kurds.

This one in particular has made me scratch my head awhile now.

 

[MongGrel]

Strategy is more or less irrelevant to ISIS. Their "Strategy" is to conquer as much territory and loot as much as possible. They are the modern equivalent of mongol hordes to the people of Syria. That's not to say they can't employ ingenious tactics, just that their "strategic vision" is pretty much rule the world by the sword.

The killing of the pilot is just a manifestation of the absolute violence that permeates the core of their ideology. It really will make little difference beyond possibly hastening their end by a few months. Until a large power from Europe, the USA, Russia, Iran, or China intervenes in a big way, this is going to be a drawn out bloodbath that may end in years of violence after "peace" is declared.

ISIS has one goal: Draw the US into a ground war where they can use gorilla tactics effectively. They are good fighters, when they are in their element, but Obama won't commit troops for them to kill... so they have become very frustrated. Can you imagine if bombs were falling on the US, and nothing could be done about it at all? Thousands of people dying? They are pissed, and with no western nations nearby to invade, they are looking for anything resembling an American to execute.

Mark my words, if we get drawn into a ground war with ISIS it will end with thousands dead for absolutely no gain whatsoever. Undoubtedly we could crush ISIS, but they would continue to suicide bomb Syrian posts. Violence would not end, maybe die down until the US leaves, just like what happened with AQI.


For the record, I believe the execution of Al-Kaesasba was sanctioned by Baghdadi personally. Nobody would undertake this kind of execution with this much preparation and filming and editing without consulting the higher ups. It also probably took a few days to direct, plenty of time for Baghdadi to weigh in on what to do with the pilot. It's messed up, but Baghdadi is basically putting a big middle finger to Obama. The airstrikes are working.


I suggest we continue to bomb ISIS until their economy collapses and the SAA and Hezbollah deal with them. Houthis and Kathab al-Hezbollah already took care of ISIS in Yemen. Fox is whining about it, but it's good for the US. Shi'a arabs are our friends, and we need to work with Iran and Iraq to beat ISIS. Israel needs to butt out.

You seem to be rambling on about a lot of things people here are all ready aware of, and stating things like they haven't been mentioned before now.

The US isn't going to send in ground troops that I see in any near future event.

Obama is going to Congress for authorization of use of force. I would have to think he is planning on bringing down the thunder.

A shock and awe campaign on Raqqa, AFTER Jordan does what they need to do, would be incredibly damaging.

Possible BUFF authorization ?

Yeah, I think he might be clarifying issues to whip out the big ones.

I've always pondered the concept of a Squadron of AC-130 Spectre Gunships roaming about, with on board controlled ECM/Fighter drones flying with them for cover would be an ugly thing.

Possibly coming to a war zone in your future.....

All ready is to a degree I guess.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I've always pondered the concept of a Squadron of AC-130 Spectre Gunships roaming about, with on board controlled ECM/Fighter drones flying with them for cover would be an ugly thing.

Why we don't have drone fighters is a mystery to me. The human body is the weakest operational link in a fighter. A smaller and quicker machine could do a whole lot of damage, outmaneuvering any possible piloted vehicle. Even simple RC jets can do incredible stunts. A properly designed swarm of these would scare the crap out of any terrorist organization while doing real damage and doesn't need to be an f-35.

 

[disappoint]

An anti-superstition psychic

Despite what my post may appear to be, I never claimed to read people's minds.

Why we don't have drone fighters is a mystery to me. The human body is the weakest operational link in a fighter. A smaller and quicker machine could do a whole lot of damage, outmaneuvering any possible piloted vehicle. Even simple RC jets can do incredible stunts. A properly designed swarm of these would scare the crap out of any terrorist organization while doing real damage and doesn't need to be an f-35.

Because then the wireless connection would become the weakest link and is easily jammed.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Despite what my post may appear to be, I never claimed to read people's minds.

That's why I was just poking you just a little. I would say that attributing thoughts to others of different cultures won't provide a true picture of what is really going on in their heads.

Because then the wireless connection would become the weakest link and is easily jammed.

That's not as easy as it seems. There are solutions which can make effective jamming more difficult than blocking a cell phone signal. Nothing is perfect, but for an organization like ISIS, I think our problem would not be insoluble by any means. Flying what would be dangerously low for a human, strike and get out. Any jamming after the fact even if effective for control would be useless to bring them down. The devices would switch to an auto return mode. Our hobby quadcopters can do that now.

 

[bradly1101]

Actually they don't think of us as savages. They think of us as weak. They think they are stronger because they have the stomach for extreme violence.

As for the Jesus quote, how well did loving his enemies and praying for his persecutors work for him? He was tortured to death, then a bunch of bullshit stories told in his name after death. Is that what you want to happen to you? Maybe he was misunderstood. Maybe he meant prey on your enemies instead.

Savage is a relative term. A strict reading of the Koran (and the Bible) shows that harsh punishments for certain transgressions are recommended.

We execute people, yes in a more 'civilized' way (well not always). We don't cover our women despite uncontrollable men. (1), (2) They see that as an invitation for unacceptable behavior and less than civilized.

I'm not proffering an answer, but it seems to me that if we're not talking to them we run the risk of strengthening them via our military resistance. Their side is gaining support, Boko Haram is on the march in Africa, Syria seems all but lost and there was a coup in Yemen. And I think we bear some culpability by sowing instability in the region. Military might got us here, but I just don't see us being able to bomb away a movement, a belief.

I recently saw video of ISIL enforcers that had gathered men to be executed (or otherwise punished - they didn't show that) in a town square
with crowds all around. A similar thing happens in Saudi Arabia, although it is not filmed and shared via social media. They figured out how to use our inventions of the information age against us. And to great effect. We're reacting exactly how they want us to. Jihad has begun.

 

[bradly1101]

Why we don't have drone fighters is a mystery to me. The human body is the weakest operational link in a fighter. A smaller and quicker machine could do a whole lot of damage, outmaneuvering any possible piloted vehicle. Even simple RC jets can do incredible stunts. A properly designed swarm of these would scare the crap out of any terrorist organization while doing real damage and doesn't need to be an f-35.

I don't think they scare as easily as you think. They effectively wield fear like a weapon, they don't seem to be phased by it.

Bombs from the sky tend to also kill civilians and destroy homes (like in Kobane), This often has the effect of swelling their ranks.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't think they scare as easily as you think. They effectively wield fear like a weapon, they don't seem to be phased by it.

They don't fear things they are familiar with. If they have a physical presence they can attack then that's something they understand. If what I am thinking of comes about it would be like lightning- short duration attack from all sides then immediate withdraw. Basically a flock of deadly birds which strike, kill, and move on before there's time to react. Fighting is one thing but falling down dead is another. Regardless of how they react it's difficult to function under such conditions.

 

[Omar F1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Jordan_peace_treaty

I believe Jordan is unique among the Arab states over there in that they have recognized Israel etc.

There is some consternation among the Jordanian population as many are Palestine.

Fern

Politically yes, we have a stable relations with Israel, in fact it's a top national security matter. You can criticize Israel there, but if you start spreading hate speech publicly you would eventually get yourself in trouble.

One point you seem unaware of, that Palestinians actually constitute around 50% of the total population in Jordan, supposedly to be higher in the capital Amman.

 

[blastingcap]

They don't fear things they are familiar with. If they have a physical presence they can attack then that's something they understand. If what I am thinking of comes about it would be like lightning- short duration attack from all sides then immediate withdraw. Basically a flock of deadly birds which strike, kill, and move on before there's time to react. Fighting is one thing but falling down dead is another. Regardless of how they react it's difficult to function under such conditions.

Blind them permanently. The US doesn't have the stomach for such nasty weapons, but the Russians probably wouldn't have qualms fielding a laser that incinerates retinas. Unemployed, hotheaded young males with dreams of Jannah (paradise) may claim not to fear death, and some of them really don't. But they should fear being disabled and being a burden on the community. It's embarrassing enough that some might choose to blow themselves up in a market afterwards but some won't, and they will be walking warnings to other would-be jihadis.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Politically yes, we have a stable relations with Israel, in fact it's a top national security matter. You can criticize Israel there, but if you start spreading hate speech publicly you would eventually get yourself in trouble.

One point you seem unaware of, that Palestinians actually constitute around 50% of the total population in Jordan, supposedly to be higher in the capital Amman.

The Queen of Jordan is Palestinian IIRC

 

[Victorian Gray]

The Queen of Jordan is Palestinian IIRC

Edit: I was wrong. Looked up the wrong queen. Apologies.