Is Vega going to be DOA!?

[KompuKare]

I think there's a chance they can beat the 1080 Ti (at least in DX12) but the issue is that they have a massive ~520 mm^2 die and to only beat GP102 by a small amount makes it trivial for Nvidia to release an even larger die if big Volta won't be out soon enough.

Well, unless they have their whole design totally modular and macro'ed, I don't see it being easy (read fast) to make a new design between GP102 and GP100. The industry may be heading that way (Intel's Embedded Multi-Die Interconnect Bridge (EMIB), the hints Raja dropped about (presumably) Navi being modular, even the Infinity Fabric design with Ryzen might allow AMD to swap out one CCX for a Vega CCX, and similar things), it's not here yet. So while GP102 @ 478mm² and assuming the max size is 600mm², it's not as simple as taking GP102 and adding another 120mm² of 'stuff' to it. The design, verification and tape-out would take months (maybe 1.5 years?).

Seems no one is talking about Freesync/Gsync.

With Freesync and Gsync monitors out now, some of us are vendor locked. Whether you like it or not, Freesync is a VENDOR LOCK. End of STORY. So I have a Freesync monitor, and hte only high end GPU I can get is Vega. So I'm getting Vega. There are a lot of markets for Vega. Not DOA at all.

Since Freesync is at the scaler level, isn't it possible that a Gsync monitor could support Freesync too? That is without too much effort? Obviously, Nvidia may not certify such a monitor but might it just work or maybe there are even firmware hacks for monitors?

EDIT: (Obviously that doesn't help those who have a Freesync monitor, but it might make some future Gsync monitors not actually have vendor lock-in. Also, looks like Scorpio supports Freesync (but PS4 Pro doesn't, strange), so Nvidia may eventually be forced to support Freesync too.)

 

[crisium]

I would make a large wager than part of the agreement in buying a G-Sync module precludes it supporting Freesync. I think there's no way after several years of both that no manufacturer wouldn't have launched a G/Free hybrid by now otherwise, even if it required some extra hardware for compatibility. A firmware hack would be nice.

But yeah, us Freesyncers are AMD tied for now. Still, the performance and price of Vega needs to be there or else I will wait and will get a new monitor one day (4K high refresh HDR isn't that far off).

 

[DooKey]

I would make a large wager than part of the agreement in buying a G-Sync module precludes it supporting Freesync. I think there's no way after several years of both that no manufacturer wouldn't have launched a G/Free hybrid by now otherwise, even if it required some extra hardware for compatibility. A firmware hack would be nice.

But yeah, us Freesyncers are AMD tied for now. Still, the performance and price of Vega needs to be there or else I will wait and will get a new monitor one day (4K high refresh HDR isn't that far off).

Now that I've locked into my new Gsync UW monitor I'm staying with Nvidia for the next round of high-end gaming cards. Looks like Volta is my next upgrade. Still love my Ryzen cpu!

 

[guachi]

I can think of one way Vega would be DOA and that's if AMD can't get it to a competitive price point and still make money.

Though if it's 1080+ performance for $400-500 then it's good because Freesync is just so much cheaper than GSync and Freesync/GSync are so good I can't imagine gaming without it at the high end.

 

[richaron]

Yeah... saying Vega must be "faster" than a 1080Ti to avoid being a "fail" is asinine.

As if the "fastest" or "biggest" (or whatever) product in any category must also be the only successful product. Why buy a pickup when there a bigger trucks on the market??? The balance of reality vs epeen on this forum is way off. A product's success is weighed by a bunch of metrics; like features, performance, price, support, and more. Calling anything DOA without information is the height of delusion.

 

[Malogeek]

Yeah... saying Vega must be "faster" than a 1080Ti to avoid being a "fail" is asinine.

The argument is that if Vega is around 530mm in size and it's not faster than 1080ti, then AMD has failed to build a competitive chip since GP102 is 471mm. There are too many factors with Vega though to truly make an apples to applies comparison for die density. Of course power leakage will be the big factor since GP102 is relatively well designed for it's power envelope.

 

[Mopetar]

The argument is that if Vega is around 530mm in size and it's not faster than 1080ti, then AMD has failed to build a competitive chip since GP102 is 471mm. There are too many factors with Vega though to truly make an apples to applies comparison for die density. Of course power leakage will be the big factor since GP102 is relatively well designed for it's power envelope.

I think that sums it up rather nicely. I don't think Vega necessarily has to beat GP102 relative to size, but it would be nice to see AMD able to retake the performance crown, especially since they haven't had a high end chip release in almost 2 years and haven't really traded blows at the high end for even longer.

I suspect that they'll have a DX12/Vulkan edge which may make Vega a better long term investment, but I can't deny it would be fun to see another big surprise similar to Ryzen. Maybe Vega is the culmination of what AMD has been working towards with GCN, or maybe it's just another iteration of Fury.

 

[richaron]

The argument is that if Vega is around 530mm in size and it's not faster than 1080ti, then AMD has failed to build a competitive chip since GP102 is 471mm.

I suppose that's an argument. Now since this is a technical forum I expect people to provide information on exactly what workloads Vega is slower and give supporting data before claiming it's DOA.

Of course this is only one argument (e.g. completely ignoring price and other factors) and I suspect an argument relating to only one of Vega's features and workloads. Hence why I say claiming Vega's DOA already is asinine.

 

[thilanliyan]

I'm in for two if they are beasts at mining

 

[Malogeek]

It's just a pre-launch FUD thread which happens at every launch. It's "silly season" as we call it at B3D. Don't read much into it and move on.

 

[unseenmorbidity]

There are always people buying video cards. The idea of the market being "dried up" is silly.

If Vega is good, it will sell.

If it isn't good, it won't sell.

The longer the delay, the better it will have to be or the lower the price it will have to have.

They might get a few buyers from ppl randomly upgrading, but volta will likely be out in 2017. That's 6 months of sales.

Then you have to consider that when volta is a couple months out, then ppl will wait for it.

Is the tech behind Vega primarily for the gaming market? Wasn't Ryzen similar in a compromise of what they want to do with the CPU in the enterprise?

Ryzen is a straight up server hand me down.

 

[bigboxes]

Vega is not DOA. It won't be a game changer though. They are just getting back in the game. What did you expect Nvidia to do? Without competition you do exactly as they have done. Much like Intel. When AMD is competitive in price and performance then I will consider them again. I used to be very loyal to AMD & ATI. I plan out my builds, do research and buy the best parts for the money. I'm really hoping that AMD is competitive. I'm rooting for them.

 

[unseenmorbidity]

Vega is not DOA. It won't be a game changer though. They are just getting back in the game. What did you expect Nvidia to do? Without competition you do exactly as they have done. Much like Intel. When AMD is competitive in price and performance then I will consider them again. I used to be very loyal to AMD & ATI. I plan out my builds, do research and buy the best parts for the money. I'm really hoping that AMD is competitive. I'm rooting for them.

390 is at least on par with the 970...

 

[bigboxes]

390 is at least on par with the 970...

Who cares. The 390 wasn't released when I got the 970. I had originally purchased a 290X Lightning, but it had damaged fins and I returned it. No one had any more in stock so I got the 970. Quiet AF. Got a $30 rebate on it. Amazon gave me an additional $30 when they didn't include a code for a copy of The Witcher 3. I'm expecting another $30 whenever they settle that class action lawsuit against Nvidia for the 4GB fiasco.

 

[stormkroe]

'Nvidiot'? Seriously, OP? How are you still here?
AMD will be just fine.

 

[guachi]

They might get a few buyers from ppl randomly upgrading, but volta will likely be out in 2017. That's 6 months of sales.

You are laboring under the false belief that the only cards people buy are the top tier. We know this is completely false. Just because faster cards exist doesn't mean no one buys a slower card.

You can't possibly believe what you wrote.

 

[Futmut]

'Nvidiot'? Seriously, OP? How are you still here?
AMD will be just fine.

I think he is a fanboy and is offensive with that term.

Back on topic Vega will not be DOA because even if it doesnt beat or catch up with the gtx1080ti it will have a competitive price.

 

[lobz]

Forget vega vs pascal, what will AMD do they do when volta is released a few months later (late 2017?).

That is a dream. Consumer Volta is not coming in 2017, that's for sure.

 

[lobz]

The argument is that if Vega is around 530mm in size and it's not faster than 1080ti, then AMD has failed to build a competitive chip since GP102 is 471mm. There are too many factors with Vega though to truly make an apples to applies comparison for die density. Of course power leakage will be the big factor since GP102 is relatively well designed for it's power envelope.

Vega is smaller than 500mm2, according to Raja Koduri himself.

 

[Jason Ives]

Honestly I can bet that even those who are upgrading from a 1080 -> 1080 Ti -> Titan Xp would never buy Vega even if it was 10% faster than the Titan Xp and cheaper. They would say "I'm waiting for Volta!". Even if they were planning on buying the Titan Xp for more money.

They only want AMD around to lower prices, not actually purchase their hardware. They claim there is no monopoly while at the same time saying that AMD can't compete and there is no other option. You can't win or attempt to change their mind. They are buying based on appearances and marketing, nothing more.

I'm glad that AMD is working with companies like LiquidSky to do their datacenters, because the high end discrete GPU business is fanboy over logic and they've lost the war

Sounds like you're preaching that the only reason people do not buy AMD and do by Nvidia is because they don't know any better. That it has actually nothing to do with Nvidia making good products that perform well. How do you expect something like this to stick, Bacon1? Don't you know that if what you imply here was true, then AMD would be on top, not Nvidia. So I think it might be time for a reality check. Not saying this to be mean or anything. Just know that things are the way they are for a reason. Or many reasons. But the stupidity of customers isn't one of them.

 

[simas]

wow, so much drama - DOA? Failure? Says who?

reality call back - a lot of us (aka the consumers) care of value per $, not some performance 'crown' or other BS. We would buy (or not buy) based on that performance per $.

success/failure for AMD is the number of cards they could sell and the money they make per card. that is the end of it . all other 'experts' can take their 'expert' opinion and shove it.

 

[Mopetar]

Vega is smaller than 500mm2, according to Raja Koduri himself.

Do you have a source for that?

I wasn't aware anything official had been said about the size.

 

[unseenmorbidity]

You are laboring under the false belief that the only cards people buy are the top tier. We know this is completely false. Just because faster cards exist doesn't mean no one buys a slower card.

You can't possibly believe what you wrote.

I never said anything like that. I am just talking about vega.

On aside note, the performance crown gets you a lot of positive press, and that helps sell the slower cards.

I think he is a fanboy and is offensive with that term.

Back on topic Vega will not be DOA because even if it doesnt beat or catch up with the gtx1080ti it will have a competitive price.

I am not a fanboy. I don't particularly like amd more than any other corporation. They are deceiving cons, just like all the others, but I try to support them anyway for the sake of market competition.

I don't like fanboys on either side of the aisle.

Sure, it will still be priced to move, regardless of it's performance. The question is whether anyone is going to buy it, aside from a few holdouts, such as myself.

And I am not even sure I want to buy it, despite having freesync.

 

[unseenmorbidity]

Sounds like you're preaching that the only reason people do not buy AMD and do by Nvidia is because they don't know any better. That it has actually nothing to do with Nvidia making good products that perform well. How do you expect something like this to stick, Bacon1? Don't you know that if what you imply here was true, then AMD would be on top, not Nvidia. So I think it might be time for a reality check. Not saying this to be mean or anything. Just know that things are the way they are for a reason. Or many reasons. But the stupidity of customers isn't one of them.

Well that's mostly true.... Amd has often had better cards priced cheaper, and the ignorant consumers still bought Nvidia. I would imagine this mentality has only gotten worse over the years.

I hear people regurgitate ignorant cliches, as if they are facts all the time. "AMD runs hot and loud." "Nvidia is better at every price point, because flagship" AMD drivers suck" etc...

How many people buy the 1050ti, instead of the RX470, which is like 50% faster?! You can even find them for about the same price! Maybe $10-20 more on average.

The 1050ti's ONLY selling point is that it doesn't need a pcie power plug, but I am willing to bet that isn't why most ppl bought them. I see 1050ti's in pcpartpicker list all the time! You ask them why they picked it, and their answer is the price and nvidia.

Long story short, you should never underestimate branding! Pack mentality is hardwired into our psyche.

 

[Kenmitch]

Nope.

This thread on the other hand is DOA or is it DOFP.