Is Trump Trying to Stage a Coup?

[MrSquished]

someone is having a hard time distinguishing that just because you attempt something and fail at it, does not change what it was an attempt to do.

 

[emperus]

Yes he tried it and it failed. Doesn’t make it a coup. Perhaps your imagination has become fear and paranoia after a healthy dose of liberal doomsday scenarios that simply never materialized.

I grew in a country where this thing has happened. Not fear, but for the first time in my life (Trump presidency), I could see how the US could descend to the country I grew up in. It was shocking to me.

You’re second scenario assumes an electoral override through executive coercion. Guess its my lack of hysterical imagination.

But you've missed my point. I would consider it illegal and you would consider it illegal. But if all the courts decide it's legal, how can it be illegal? You can follow legal processes that should be illegal to overthrow an election that are so rigged, they are legal. So, for the matter of coups, "the legality" of it is less of a concern for me, because in those situations, the processes are usually rigged for those who want to maintain power.

 

[mikeymikec]

Let me know when any of the doomsday scenarios actually occur. Thanks.

So if Trump had successfully undermined the election through the means he has tried so far, what word would you have used to describe it?

 

[sactoking]

"A person had the right to utilize judicial review of the process" and "Trump is going that the courts invalidate the will of the people" are both legitimate viewpoints of what's going on. They are not mutually exclusive. Just like "Black Lives Matter" and "I support law enforcement" are not mutually exclusive points of view.

 

[fskimospy]

Let me know when any of the doomsday scenarios actually occur. Thanks.

The Sideshow Bob defense!

 

[brycejones]

someone is having a hard time distinguishing that just because you attempt something and fail at it, does not change what it was an attempt to do.

You just don't have the secret dictionary. When its finally published all will be revealed.

 

[Ajay]

I've become pretty convinced that this is mostly about stroking Trump's ego and, secondarily, about covering up other political shenanigans that are going on behind the scenes and securing the Trump family's financial future post presidency.

Edit, typo.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I grew in a country where this thing has happened. Not fear, but for the first time in my life (Trump presidency), I could see how the US could descend to the country I grew up in. It was shocking to me.

Not sure where you grew up, but I’ve similarly been to countries where the notion of democracy is a facade. I don’t see us as remotely close. I reject Trump but also reject cry wolfism.

But you've missed my point. I would consider it illegal and you would consider it illegal. But if all the courts decide it's legal, how can it be illegal? You can follow legal processes that should be illegal to overthrow an election that are so rigged, they are legal. So, for the matter of coups, "the legality" of it is less of a concern for me, because in those situations, the processes are usually rigged for those who want to maintain power

It’s because I don’t see the scenario as remotely plausible. Our system of government allows for overrides, recounts and judicial oversight. Just because someone tries to exploit one of those levers does not make it a coup. The GOP will have to sleep in the bed its made for itself. The only outcome I see is that Trump’s tantrum will cost them the Senate.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So if Trump had successfully undermined the election through the means he has tried so far, what word would you have used to describe it?

For him to have been successful, it would require him to demonstrate with facts that the outcome of the election was in fact invalid, and with substantial enough evidence to convince not only the judiciary but the electoral process managed by several sovereign states. He has no facts and therefore no case. The entire intent of this charade is a smokescreen to cover his exit, nothing more.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The Sideshow Bob defense!

Concern, now with tired memes

 

[fskimospy]

Concern, now with tired memes

Sideshow Bob is never tired.
Also, don’t project your concern trolling on to me, this is your childish defensiveness.

 

[NWRMidnight]

You can believe its a coup, I just happen to disagree.

Has nothing to do with believing or having an opinion of it being a coup, it's about the fact that it is a coup or rather an attempt at a coup, all you are doing by saying you disagree is admitting you are ignoring the facts and the truth. But you can keep your head in the sand and continue to ignore the facts and the truth, just as you have done the last 4 years with Trump. That is your right.

 

[zzyzxroad]

What ever you want to call what Tump and his backers are doing it is wrong, unethical and unAmerican. Just more proof that he should have never been voted into the office. This tantrum he and his supporters are throwing during a pandemic is inexcusable.

 

[NWRMidnight]

"A person had the right to utilize judicial review of the process" and "Trump is going that the courts invalidate the will of the people" are both legitimate viewpoints of what's going on. They are not mutually exclusive. Just like "Black Lives Matter" and "I support law enforcement" are not mutually exclusive points of view.

How is having closed door meetings to persuade legislators to ignore the will of the people fall under the judicial review of the process, specially when the judicial branches of the state governments, just like the federal government, are separate from the legislative branch? I told you to step back and look at everything, not just the lawsuits. But you need to pull your head out of the sand to do that.

 

[mikeymikec]

For him to have been successful, it would require him to demonstrate with facts that the outcome of the election was in fact invalid, and with substantial enough evidence to convince not only the judiciary but the electoral process managed by several sovereign states. He has no facts and therefore no case. The entire intent of this charade is a smokescreen to cover his exit, nothing more.

You avoided my question and made a claim based on the just-world hypothesis. Try again, but this time actually answer my question.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Has nothing to do with believing or having an opinion of it being a coup, it's about the fact that it is a coup or rather an attempt at a coup, all you are doing by saying you disagree is admitting you are ignoring the facts and the truth. But you can keep your head in the sand and continue to ignore the facts and the truth, just as you have done the last 4 years with Trump. That is your right.

It’s not, but if you want to go running every time someone cries wolf, I can’t stop you. That is your right.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You avoided my question and made a claim based on the just-world hypothesis. Try again, but this time actually answer my question.

I answered your question based on reality.

 

[woolfe9998]

Words have meaning. Let’s call it a sandwich.


Yes, Gore was entitled to a recount, just as Trump is...and there are Democrat voters who refuse to accept that Gore and Clinton lost, they don’t claim conspiracy, but are no less irrational in their reasoning because they were emotionally vested in the outcome...or do you not remember all the “Resist” and “Not My President” nonsense.

And I am entitled to point out that your dismissal of my analogy is born of your own confirmation bias.

Because you are so concerned by it. I think you’re an intelligent poster, but we don’t often agree, yet I don’t recall ever feeling the need to tell you that you are wrong for not sharing my perspective.

Those Gore voters you're talking about had legitimate reasons for their position. The FL margin was razor thin and we were not allowed a recount to know the true outcome because the SCOTUS on party lines voted to disallow it. Which was an outrage. It was a further outrage that Bush's brother used his power as governor to halt recount efforts. It smacked of bad faith and corruption.

They asked for a recount and were not given one for bad reasons. Unlike the lunatics of today, they had actual cause to be pissed. Had they allowed the recount and had it showed Bush to still be the winner, that would have been the end of the matter. This reaction was well within a reasonable range of behaviors expected from people who are partisan in a rather ordinary, sane manner. This is not the case with what is happening now. What is happening now is totally batshit and you know it.

 

[Jhhnn]

For him to have been successful, it would require him to demonstrate with facts that the outcome of the election was in fact invalid, and with substantial enough evidence to convince not only the judiciary but the electoral process managed by several sovereign states. He has no facts and therefore no case. The entire intent of this charade is a smokescreen to cover his exit, nothing more.

Just because Trump has failed to overturn the election does not mean the attempt has not been genuine or that there isn't more in store. I'll grant that the system is holding up well but that's not for lack of trying to tear it down on Trump's part. His legal options will be exhausted after Monday & we'll see where he goes from there.

 

[brycejones]

Why do you guys keep feeding the troll?

 

[woolfe9998]

Just because Trump has failed to overturn the election does not mean the attempt has not been genuine or that there isn't more in store. I'll grant that the system is holding up well but that's not for lack of trying to tear it down on Trump's part. His legal options will be exhausted after Monday & we'll see where he goes from there.

Had this election been closer I have little doubt that the system would not have held. Trump would have found one or more judges partisan enough to hand it to him if this had come down to a single state with a narrow margin. The reason the courts held is because Trump was too far behind to make his challenges even seem plausible.

 

[NWRMidnight]

It’s not, but if you want to go running every time someone cries wolf, I can’t stop you. That is your right.

What? Who's crying wolf? You believe Trump's attempt to undermine our election, destroy our democracy, and attempt a coup is crying wolf? You are delusional and mentally unstable, or blind. Why don't you answer me about the behind closed door meetings with legislators and how you believe that ties in with the judicial system or the court cases? Answer: Because you can't without destroying your argument.

 

[Jhhnn]

Had this election been closer I have little doubt that the system would not have held. Trump would have found one or more judges partisan enough to hand it to him if this had come down to a single state with a narrow margin. The reason the courts held is because Trump was too far behind to make his challenges even seem plausible.

Nostradamus speaks! Well, kinda, huh? Hypothetical alternatives aside, it is what it is. The electoral college & the governors of all 50 states are set to name Biden the winner on Monday. Trump's legal options will have been exhausted & we'll see where he goes from there.

 

[woolfe9998]

Nostradamus speaks! Well, kinda, huh? Hypothetical alternatives aside, it is what it is. The electoral college & the governors of all 50 states are set to name Biden the winner on Monday. Trump's legal options will have been exhausted & we'll see where he goes from there.

Technically hypothetical, yes. But since Starbuck raised Bush v. Gore, I'll point out that a 5-4 SCOTUS denied a recount to Gore in 2000 and that was when we were less partisan than we are today, and the courts were also less stacked in the GOP's favor. So I have good reason for the assumption I am making.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You can believe its a coup, I just happen to disagree.

It's pointless to continue arguing with a mob of frothing-mouth children.

You can bring them dictionary definitions of the word - which stems historically from an obvious French word, and they will still stick in English words in front of it and say "SEE! This makes it a coup!"

It's pretty comical how stupid a mob can get.