There isn't an 'afterlife' but there is a form of consciousness after death. Read Plotinus, he had some amazing mystical visions of the tohen.
Rogo
Rogo
DefDC
Golden Member
- Aug 28, 2003
- 1,858
- 1
- 81
After much research in college in altered and unaltered states I've pondered this. Organized religion never sat well with me. I started looking at spirituality in scientific manner. I realized that when we die our physical matter and energy from our bodies disperses back into the universe to exist again as all things.
Right now, in your body, you have atoms of dinosaurs, distant planets, the world's greatest heros, and the worst villians. After you die your atoms WILL live again in the bodies in all living and nonliving things. This will be true even after the sun supernovas and all existence as we know it is unmade.
For some reason, this fulfills me spiritually and I have no fear of death... (Not that I'm ready to check out any time soon)
Right now, in your body, you have atoms of dinosaurs, distant planets, the world's greatest heros, and the worst villians. After you die your atoms WILL live again in the bodies in all living and nonliving things. This will be true even after the sun supernovas and all existence as we know it is unmade.
For some reason, this fulfills me spiritually and I have no fear of death... (Not that I'm ready to check out any time soon)
Opinion does not matter, there is absolute truth and that Truth is found in the Bible. The Bible clearly reveals that there is an afterlife, and that people do not disappear from existence. Every person exists on 2 realms (or "planes"): the physical and the spiritual. Because of sin, introduced into the physical world by Adam and Eve, all mankind, and animals, and all living things die. Death is simply separation from God's kingdom. Remember (if you know the story) that God said to Adam and Eve that if they would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on that day they would surely die? They did - they were separated that day, they died, from the spiritual aspect of God's kingdom. Prior to the fall of man, the spiritual and physical parts of God's kingdom were one (heaven being God's throne, and Earth His footstool, metaphorically speaking) but the fall of man rendered him (us) unable to take part in or even see that spiritual aspect.
Mankind also, because of sin, which introduced corruption into a previously stable and perfect world, is subject to physical death, which is separation from the physical aspect of God's kingdom. This death is delayed for us only because of God's mercy - He allows us to live, even though we deserve death, because it is His wish that some would be saved. But everyone who is born into this world is essentially spiritually dead, and the spiritual death is infinitely more consequential because the soul (being the spiritual aspect of man) does not die, but is eternal and, unless it is redeemed, will spend eternity in a state of death (separation from God and His Kingdom).
This is where human religions come into play, all of them seeking to explain how man can save himself from death. But the Bible is the only Truth, the only source that acknowledges the fact that man cannot save himself, just as a physically dead man cannot raise himself up from the dead. And yet every human religion claims that if you follow some sort of prescription for righteous living, and you follow some type of outward religious code, you'll be alright. But that is utterly false - only God can save man. And the only way He has provided for salvation is through Jesus Christ, the One who He sent to die for the sins of all those who believe in Him and put their faith in Him. He is the one who overcame death and defeated it, and was the propitiation (payment) for the incomprehensibly large debt that man cannot pay on his own: sin. Anyone who tries to pay his own way into salvation is in for a rude awakening: there are only two ways the debt of sin can be paid. Either you can accept the free gift which is salvation by Jesus Christ, and go to Heaven (the gloriously restored Kingdom in the future), or you can pay it yourself for eternity in Hell, which is the outer darkness, the lake of fire outside of God's glorious Kingdom in which there will be endless"weeping and gnashing of teeth".
There is only one reason why someone would accept the latter, and that is because of pride, which is the same root sin that caused man (and Satan) to sin in the first place, and is what causes man to continue to sin today. Pride is exalting yourself, putting yourself in your imagination or mind above the reality, and all of natural mankind is guilty of it. Unless God intervenes to humble you, so that you realize your true lowly state, you cannot be saved. That is why the Beatitudes starts by saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for their is the kingdom of heaven". Unless you are poor in spirit, realizing your own spiritual bankruptcy and deadness, and recognize your own sinfulness and inability to save yourself, you cannot be saved. You also have to be someone who mourns over sin, and not be someone who, in the heart/mind, says "I have not sinned", or, "I may have sinned, but at least I'm better than so-and-so", or "I'm not that bad - I don't deserve death!". You have to, after examining yourself, realize how awful sin is in your life, and cry out to God for mercy, for salvation from sin. God is a gracious and loving, and He will save all those who genuinely seek Him.
For the sake of brevity (yeah, I know - it's still kind of long) and clarity (yeah, I know - it's not as clear as it could be) I left out references, but they are available on request.
Mankind also, because of sin, which introduced corruption into a previously stable and perfect world, is subject to physical death, which is separation from the physical aspect of God's kingdom. This death is delayed for us only because of God's mercy - He allows us to live, even though we deserve death, because it is His wish that some would be saved. But everyone who is born into this world is essentially spiritually dead, and the spiritual death is infinitely more consequential because the soul (being the spiritual aspect of man) does not die, but is eternal and, unless it is redeemed, will spend eternity in a state of death (separation from God and His Kingdom).
This is where human religions come into play, all of them seeking to explain how man can save himself from death. But the Bible is the only Truth, the only source that acknowledges the fact that man cannot save himself, just as a physically dead man cannot raise himself up from the dead. And yet every human religion claims that if you follow some sort of prescription for righteous living, and you follow some type of outward religious code, you'll be alright. But that is utterly false - only God can save man. And the only way He has provided for salvation is through Jesus Christ, the One who He sent to die for the sins of all those who believe in Him and put their faith in Him. He is the one who overcame death and defeated it, and was the propitiation (payment) for the incomprehensibly large debt that man cannot pay on his own: sin. Anyone who tries to pay his own way into salvation is in for a rude awakening: there are only two ways the debt of sin can be paid. Either you can accept the free gift which is salvation by Jesus Christ, and go to Heaven (the gloriously restored Kingdom in the future), or you can pay it yourself for eternity in Hell, which is the outer darkness, the lake of fire outside of God's glorious Kingdom in which there will be endless"weeping and gnashing of teeth".
There is only one reason why someone would accept the latter, and that is because of pride, which is the same root sin that caused man (and Satan) to sin in the first place, and is what causes man to continue to sin today. Pride is exalting yourself, putting yourself in your imagination or mind above the reality, and all of natural mankind is guilty of it. Unless God intervenes to humble you, so that you realize your true lowly state, you cannot be saved. That is why the Beatitudes starts by saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for their is the kingdom of heaven". Unless you are poor in spirit, realizing your own spiritual bankruptcy and deadness, and recognize your own sinfulness and inability to save yourself, you cannot be saved. You also have to be someone who mourns over sin, and not be someone who, in the heart/mind, says "I have not sinned", or, "I may have sinned, but at least I'm better than so-and-so", or "I'm not that bad - I don't deserve death!". You have to, after examining yourself, realize how awful sin is in your life, and cry out to God for mercy, for salvation from sin. God is a gracious and loving, and He will save all those who genuinely seek Him.
For the sake of brevity (yeah, I know - it's still kind of long) and clarity (yeah, I know - it's not as clear as it could be) I left out references, but they are available on request.
Anubis
No Lifer
The Bible was written by man, and man makes mistakes.
Let's say hypothetically that God does exist. If he funneled all the knowledge necessary to write the information in the Bible into a single, or even several people, what are the chances it would come out untainted by a human being's perspective?
Of course, that is just my opinion. :roll:
moshquerade
No Lifer
- Nov 1, 2001
- 61,504
- 12
- 56
i believe there is, and if there isn't i am still glad i have tried to live my life like there is.
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
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- 0
In perpetual fear of eternal damnation? The concept of Hell is so vile that it doesn't even matter that it doesn't exist. Just the fact that so many people think it does is bad enough.
If God exists, (He does) wouldn't it be well within His power (it is) to preserve the Book that He gave to mankind? Would it be too difficult for the One who created the entire universe, who created it all out of nothingness, to inspire ("breath in", metaphorically speaking) His Word into the men of His choosing over the course of thousands of years and have it be completely consistent and inerrant? Man cannot destroy God's Word, though there have been and continue to be attempts to distort and destroy it over the centuries, and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ ends with a solemn pronouncement of judgment on anyone who even attempts to do so. People may interpret the Bible themselves, lending their own perspective, just like people can misinterpret any information for their own gain. But the Bible is "not subject to private interpretation", but it interprets itself. Even Satan quotes scripture, but he does so selectively in order to deceive others. That is why it is important to know the Bible in its full context, so such lies and distortions of the truth can be struck down.
If you are confident that the Bible was written by man, and not God, why not take a serious attempt to prove it? Examine the Bible completely and thoroughly and you will see that it does not contradict itself, even though it was written over a huge span of time and by many human agents. Look at it from a historical perspective: every single attempt to attack its historical veracity has been shot down, and the Bible shown to be true. You think the Bible is just fairy tales written by men? Then take an actual look at what it says, and don't just listen to what people say or what Google's search results provide. If the Bible is irrelevant or even dangerous nonsense then people should be told that, right? But you can't adequately state that until you have examined it for yourself.
moshquerade
No Lifer
- Nov 1, 2001
- 61,504
- 12
- 56
I find it sad how religious folks will accuse non-believers of being "disingenuous" in their reliance on fallible science. For instance, "evolution is not a law" therefore to "believe" in it (which WOULD be the appropriate term) is akin to believing in religion. What absolute horse shit! The tenets and history of Christianity (for example) are intrinsically supernatural, meaning it defies natural explanation. Faith is faith because it LACKS proof, if there were proof it would be called KNOWLEDGE and getting into "heaven" would be easy peasy. Now, that being said, "believing" in science seems FAR less disingenuous than believing religion. Science provides direct and indirect, repeatable observation. By it's very design science must endure logical scrutiny in order to survive. Of course that is in stark contrast to religion where, for instance, "knowledge" is depicted as the fruit of "satan" and of course traveling down that path will get you a one way ticket to ETERNAL DAMNATION. Yeah, great argument there. I can see Jesus was the captain of HIS debate team...
Now as for the fallibility of the bible, wasn't Revelations (the juiciest part that every evangelical romanticizes) written AT LEAST two generations after the time of Christ? I thought Christ was the final prophet. And exactly what does that imply about the time-line within which the "good book" was penned by the almighty? Did he forget what amounts to the most important part of the book for many and said "aw shit, hey buddy I need you to do me a favor and write another chapter of the bible for me. The apostles are already dead and buried so you're my man." Or was it that "the man" was so disappointed by the reception his newest book received (didn't even break 10 on the the NYT best sellers list for 70 years!) that he felt he needed to add a little more incentive for people to take the stuff seriously by threatening to torment their fickle asses for all eternity?
Oh and then there's good old King James of the New King James Version Testament, he wasn't even Christian! By all accounts he was a horrible person, and we're supposed to assume he changed NOTHING in the bible? Right... and what about the other gospels? Truth or fiction? Protestants don't exactly embrace their Catholic counterparts and go as far as to accuse them of being "unholy", of following a false path. Well guess what, up until good old crazier-than-shit Martin Luther and his protestant revolution, EVERYONE WAS CATHOLIC. So do we believe the bible remained intact throughout all the iterations of corrupt clergy and papal thugs? Maybe it WAS disfigured, but was UNdisfiguered by the far holier protestant leaders henceforth. Yeah, that's it.
How about the contradictions between the accounts OF THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST between the different books? I mean wtf, you think of all things the very foundation of the religion would at least have some consistency between two or three different authors.
I mean we're talking about a religion (Christianity for example only, but don't think I'm any more thrilled by Islam or Judaism) that are older than the Mayans, and those guys worshiped frigging jaguars. It's so damn archaic and bizarre that the vast majority of modern civilization is still holding on to these mythologies that only once in a blue moon am I even willing to acknowledge it. Otherwise I do what I can to put religion OUT of my life and give those who submit themselves to the Mighty Jaguar, er... Lord, a extremely WIDE berth. I can only imagine how this post will be perceived, but it just so happens that the moon is blue and I'm genuinely interested.
Now as for the fallibility of the bible, wasn't Revelations (the juiciest part that every evangelical romanticizes) written AT LEAST two generations after the time of Christ? I thought Christ was the final prophet. And exactly what does that imply about the time-line within which the "good book" was penned by the almighty? Did he forget what amounts to the most important part of the book for many and said "aw shit, hey buddy I need you to do me a favor and write another chapter of the bible for me. The apostles are already dead and buried so you're my man." Or was it that "the man" was so disappointed by the reception his newest book received (didn't even break 10 on the the NYT best sellers list for 70 years!) that he felt he needed to add a little more incentive for people to take the stuff seriously by threatening to torment their fickle asses for all eternity?
Oh and then there's good old King James of the New King James Version Testament, he wasn't even Christian! By all accounts he was a horrible person, and we're supposed to assume he changed NOTHING in the bible? Right... and what about the other gospels? Truth or fiction? Protestants don't exactly embrace their Catholic counterparts and go as far as to accuse them of being "unholy", of following a false path. Well guess what, up until good old crazier-than-shit Martin Luther and his protestant revolution, EVERYONE WAS CATHOLIC. So do we believe the bible remained intact throughout all the iterations of corrupt clergy and papal thugs? Maybe it WAS disfigured, but was UNdisfiguered by the far holier protestant leaders henceforth. Yeah, that's it.
How about the contradictions between the accounts OF THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST between the different books? I mean wtf, you think of all things the very foundation of the religion would at least have some consistency between two or three different authors.
I mean we're talking about a religion (Christianity for example only, but don't think I'm any more thrilled by Islam or Judaism) that are older than the Mayans, and those guys worshiped frigging jaguars. It's so damn archaic and bizarre that the vast majority of modern civilization is still holding on to these mythologies that only once in a blue moon am I even willing to acknowledge it. Otherwise I do what I can to put religion OUT of my life and give those who submit themselves to the Mighty Jaguar, er... Lord, a extremely WIDE berth. I can only imagine how this post will be perceived, but it just so happens that the moon is blue and I'm genuinely interested.
Yes, there is an afterlife. Those that aren't dead yet go on living, until it's their turn for a dirtnap.
As for a spiritual afterlife? Sure, and mine come complete with my own personal harem of millions of hot soon-to-be-deflowered-by-me virgins, free chickenwings, beer and pizza, and 24 hour a day football and free per view porn. And a hammock. And an extremely interesting book that will take an eternity to finish reading. And a bottomless bottle of tequila. And Shakira to shake her bottom when I'm bored.
As for a spiritual afterlife? Sure, and mine come complete with my own personal harem of millions of hot soon-to-be-deflowered-by-me virgins, free chickenwings, beer and pizza, and 24 hour a day football and free per view porn. And a hammock. And an extremely interesting book that will take an eternity to finish reading. And a bottomless bottle of tequila. And Shakira to shake her bottom when I'm bored.
Matters? Well I'd have to agree with you there, religion still carries a BIG stick and demands "pertinence" through blunt force. That's not to say it's reasonable by any stretch of the imagination, it merely remains a significant force within modern civilization that can not be avoided.
Agreed. With regard to the consistency of the bible between it's various books (written over several generations :roll
, you suggest only those with the most discerning theological eye can weed out the true meaning of the gospel and see it's consistency. Ok, so the bible' consistency is not otherwise obvious then I suppose. How is that NOT like having sermons read and recited in latin by people who DON'T SPEAK LATIN? So what about the average joe out there who is of average intelligence; he's smart enough to read them book and appreciate the book. He's even smart enough to notice the inconsistencies that exist "on the surface" of the good book. Unfortunately, average joe is NOT smart enough to see the TRUE meaning of the good book. He can't appreciate the subtleties that provide the consistency you state is there if you know where and how to look. I guess Jesus gave average joe a serious disadvantage to salvation, poor guy!Maybe you're wrong and it's just prose is either poor by nature, or maybe it should be re-written to be made more accessible to average joe so he ISN'T disadvantaged?
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