Is there a point where you're optimally filling your gas tank?

[LTC8K6]

How long does it take 5 or 10,000 gallons of fuel to swing 15 degrees due to surrounding ambient temp?

A week?

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: fleabag
Are you trying to support your own argument or tear it apart?

I like how you manage to quote only a small section and make it seem like that's the opinion of snopes.....it is not. What you quoted there was actually from the LA times.

...

As for what you quoted earlier, here is the part right before that you truncated in your post:
"The whole temperature/volume issue is a subject of lively debate: Some maintain that consumers always get the volume of gas they pay for, regardless of temperature, and the real issue is whether a gallon of warmer, expanded fuel contains as much "energy" (or octane) as a gallon of cooler fuel. Some say it doesn't; others maintain that consumers are getting the same "energy content" in a tank of gas either way.

Moreover, according to some sources the idea that buying gasoline in the morning will guarantee motorists get considerably cooler (and therefore cheaper) fuel is a chimera, as the Los Angeles Times noted: "
[/quote]

Snopes is AGREEING with the LA Times.

The term chimera in this context means " an illusion or fabrication of the mind; especially : an unrealizable dream". Definition of Chimera

The article says that the gas temperature does affect its volume, but the idea that it's cooler in the mornings isn't true.

You might see a change from season to season but you won't see a change in temperatures over the course of the day due to air temperature. Like I mentioned before and was mentioned in the Snopes article the temperature of the gas in the truck when delivered will have a significantly larger effect to fluctuations in daily temperatures in the tank than the changes in air temperature throughout the day.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: fleabag
He didn't debunk anything, all he did was say that I'm wrong and he's right because his wine cellar is always 60F which is a bullshit argument for various reasons. Just read my snopes link and leave it at that.

1) Root cellar, not wine cellar.
2) Not mine, just references to someone else's observed temperatures (see earlier link).
3) I listed a fluctuation in temperature of the root cellar from ~35 degrees (in winter at -40 degrees above-ground temp) to the low 50's (in summer at 90 degrees above ground temp); not once did I ever say that it held a constant 60 degrees all year long.

I had my suspicions before, but this thread has thoroughly convinced me that you are functionally illiterate.

ZV

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fleabag
He didn't debunk anything, all he did was say that I'm wrong and he's right because his wine cellar is always 60F which is a bullshit argument for various reasons. Just read my snopes link and leave it at that.

1) Root cellar, not wine cellar.
2) Not mine, just references to someone else's observed temperatures (see earlier link).
3) I listed a fluctuation in temperature of the root cellar from ~35 degrees (in winter at -40 degrees above-ground temp) to the low 50's (in summer at 90 degrees above ground temp); not once did I ever say that it held a constant 60 degrees all year long.

I had my suspicions before, but this thread has thoroughly convinced me that you are selectively illiterate.

ZV

Fixed. He only sees what he wants to see.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fleabag
To the op: If you want to improve anything, try to improve the amount of gas you get per dollar and you can do this by filling up at night or very early morning where the gas is its coldest.

Oh dear God in Heaven not this bullshit again. The storage tanks are underground far enough that there is no significant temperature fluctuation. The fact that this myth keeps getting passed around is a testament to the frightening lack of basic scientific knowledge among the general public.

Something I posted on another forum a long time ago that still holds true:

Ever gone into a root cellar in the middle of summer when it's ~100 out? It'll be ~60 degrees in the root cellar, and a root cellar isn't even completely burried. Put something 10-15 feet underground like a gas station's tanks are and you're talking about maybe, maybe a 15 degree swing in temperature from the coldest time in winter to the hottest time in summer. Daily fluctuation would be less than 1 degree.

For comparison, using measurements from a root cellar in Alberta, outside temperatures were less than -40 Fahrenheit and inside the root cellar the temperature was around 35 degrees (i.e. above freezing) but in the summer when temperatures were in the 90's the root cellar's temperature was around 50 degrees.

A 30 degree increase in temperature (from 60 degrees to 90 degrees) will cause an increase in volume of one gallon of gasoline of 4 cubic inches. (From 231 cubic inches to 235 cubic inches.) Half of that increase, which represents the temperature change at tank depth equivalent to an above-ground swing of a staggering 130 degrees (remember that in the above example the below-ground temp changed from 35 degrees to 50 degrees when the above-ground temp changed from -40 to +90), would mean a change in volume from 231 cubic inches to 233 cubic inches. That's a change of 0.8% (0.008gallons) in volume from the coldest day of winter to the hottest day of summer. Change during the average day will be at most a single degree of fluctuation. Not enough to make any measureable difference.

ZV

QFT. Thanks for posting a counter to his falsehood, so I didn't have to.

Edit: And doing things like filling up at the gas station with the cheapest price, keeping your vehicle in optimal condition, keeping your tires at the optimal pressure and regularly rotated, losing as much weight in the vehicle as possible, and adopting at least some of the hypermiling techniques will go a lot further toward saving on gas than only filling your tank up half way.

 

[fleabag]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fleabag
He didn't debunk anything, all he did was say that I'm wrong and he's right because his wine cellar is always 60F which is a bullshit argument for various reasons. Just read my snopes link and leave it at that.

1) Root cellar, not wine cellar.
2) Not mine, just references to someone else's observed temperatures (see earlier link).
3) I listed a fluctuation in temperature of the root cellar from ~35 degrees (in winter at -40 degrees above-ground temp) to the low 50's (in summer at 90 degrees above ground temp); not once did I ever say that it held a constant 60 degrees all year long.

I had my suspicions before, but this thread has thoroughly convinced me that you are functionally illiterate.

ZV

Who gives a shit? Root celler, wine cellar, IT ACCOMPLISHES the same thing! Your point was that in a celler or deep in the ground, it's going to be at the temperatures the ground is at since 6 feet under, temperatures stay at around 50F all year round and what not.

Originally posted by: Bignate603

Originally posted by: fleabag

Originally posted by: Bignate603
Are you trying to support your own argument or tear it apart?

I like how you manage to quote only a small section and make it seem like that's the opinion of snopes.....it is not. What you quoted there was actually from the LA times.

...

As for what you quoted earlier, here is the part right before that you truncated in your post:
"The whole temperature/volume issue is a subject of lively debate: Some maintain that consumers always get the volume of gas they pay for, regardless of temperature, and the real issue is whether a gallon of warmer, expanded fuel contains as much "energy" (or octane) as a gallon of cooler fuel. Some say it doesn't; others maintain that consumers are getting the same "energy content" in a tank of gas either way.

Moreover, according to some sources the idea that buying gasoline in the morning will guarantee motorists get considerably cooler (and therefore cheaper) fuel is a chimera, as the Los Angeles Times noted: "

Snopes is AGREEING with the LA Times.

The term chimera in this context means " an illusion or fabrication of the mind; especially : an unrealizable dream". Definition of Chimera

The article says that the gas temperature does affect its volume, but the idea that it's cooler in the mornings isn't true.

You might see a change from season to season but you won't see a change in temperatures over the course of the day due to air temperature. Like I mentioned before and was mentioned in the Snopes article the temperature of the gas in the truck when delivered will have a significantly larger effect to fluctuations in daily temperatures in the tank than the changes in air temperature throughout the day.

If it's such a small matter, then why would Hawaii have the requirement for fuel to be measured on the baseline of 80F instead of 60F? Maybe what I should actually do is do an experiment where I measure the temperature of fuel throughout the day.

Well this link will make you guys feel a lot better:
http://www.turndownhotfuel.com/myths.html

Though what the site says, (which some of you agree with) is that fuel temp is determined by how and when it's delivered. The site goes on to say that it does have a very measurable difference in the price of gasoline and that fuels are being distributed in very hot form and therefore consumers aren't being ripped off some of the time, but all of the time.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: fleabag
If it's such a small matter, then why would Hawaii have the requirement for fuel to be measured on the baseline of 80F instead of 60F?

Because ambient above ground temperatures in Hawai'i are higher than those found elsewhere and, as a result, the below ground temperatures are typically higher as well.

You're changing the argument here as well. No-one has argued that underground temperatures never change. No-one has argued that underground temperatures are the same in every location on earth. What we are arguing is that the variation in below-ground temperature over a single 24-hour period is so incredibly small that it's not a factor in the temperature of the gasoline being dispensed by the pumps, which means that your initial claim that people will get more gasoline by filling up in the morning or evening is just so much bullshit.

Go get your daddy and have him explain the thread to you, maybe that will help.

ZV

 

[IcePickFreak]

If you really want to prove your point, get some empirical data and get temperatures of gas at stations during different points during the day. The gas is going to have to be quite warm for this to make a worthy difference. The 10% ethanol in gas around here has a much bigger impact than that of buying gas at say 90°F.

 

[fleabag]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fleabag
If it's such a small matter, then why would Hawaii have the requirement for fuel to be measured on the baseline of 80F instead of 60F?

Because ambient above ground temperatures in Hawai'i are higher than those found elsewhere and, as a result, the below ground temperatures are typically higher as well.

You're changing the argument here as well. No-one has argued that underground temperatures never change. No-one has argued that underground temperatures are the same in every location on earth. What we are arguing is that the variation in below-ground temperature over a single 24-hour period is so incredibly small that it's not a factor in the temperature of the gasoline being dispensed by the pumps, which means that your initial claim that people will get more gasoline by filling up in the morning or evening is just so much bullshit.

Go get your daddy and have him explain the thread to you, maybe that will help.

ZV

Ok, well I've decided that the real issue isn't so much about whether or not the ambient temperatures change but the fact that they use 60F as the base line when the ambient temperatures in most areas is higher during the summer (where I live at least) and since fuel from the refinery is hot when it comes out or can be hot, it's going to result in less fuel being delivered than what is paid for. We could debate all day about temperature fluctuations mattering or not but the real crux of the issue is the fact that volume is being calculated with 60F yet we're being delivered fuel that is much hotter.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: fleabag

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: fleabag
If it's such a small matter, then why would Hawaii have the requirement for fuel to be measured on the baseline of 80F instead of 60F?

Because ambient above ground temperatures in Hawai'i are higher than those found elsewhere and, as a result, the below ground temperatures are typically higher as well.

You're changing the argument here as well. No-one has argued that underground temperatures never change. No-one has argued that underground temperatures are the same in every location on earth. What we are arguing is that the variation in below-ground temperature over a single 24-hour period is so incredibly small that it's not a factor in the temperature of the gasoline being dispensed by the pumps, which means that your initial claim that people will get more gasoline by filling up in the morning or evening is just so much bullshit.

Go get your daddy and have him explain the thread to you, maybe that will help.

ZV

Ok, well I've decided that the real issue isn't so much about whether or not the ambient temperatures change but the fact that they use 60F as the base line when the ambient temperatures in most areas is higher during the summer (where I live at least) and since fuel from the refinery is hot when it comes out or can be hot, it's going to result in less fuel being delivered than what is paid for. We could debate all day about temperature fluctuations mattering or not but the real crux of the issue is the fact that volume is being calculated with 60F yet we're being delivered fuel that is much hotter.

It's a bit more complex than that. The companies know how much temperature compensated gasoline they are selling. They can sell it for X and it costs them Y. X-Y = Profits. Very few areas of the US have only a single choice for their gas so if profits grow to a very large amount the companies will consider cutting costs to steal customers from others. If you change the selling price of the gas you'll probably see a shift up in prices across the board so the companies will maintain their profit margin. They're not going to suddenly just accept a lower profit out of the goodness of their hearts, they're going to just pass that increase on to consumers.