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Is the universe deterministic?

I

ICRS

Banned
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
 
It's impossible to know everything, so for all intents and purposes of humans, no, it is not predetermined.

Whether if you did know everything, you could determine it, is basically unknowable, because it is inherently impossible to know everything, because you could then alter the so-called "predetermined" sate of the universe.
 
I don't know what you mean by predetermined, but every event affects the ones after it. For example, whether it rains or not on a given day will affect the rest of your life, because so many events and decisions would be different depending on small changes in timing, the thoughts in your brain, etc.
 
Originally posted by: ICRS
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
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That's just it - "IF" we had enough knowledge about it today.
Heisenberg has some thoughts on why that would be a problem.

 
Since there are things which are fundamentally chaotic, no.

You cannot in principle know the future state of a subatomic particle. Where will an electron be at any given point in time? It's impossible to know even in principle. Now you can talk about probabilities of events, but that's it.
 
Yes, I believe it is. Science hasn't advanced to the point where we can say with any certainty whether or not the universe is completely deterministic, so in the end each of our views here is based as much on our personal biases or outlook on life as it is on fact.
 
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Yes, I believe it is. Science hasn't advanced to the point where we can say with any certainty whether or not the universe is completely deterministic, so in the end each of our views here is based as much on our personal biases or outlook on life as it is on fact.
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How do you account for chaos?
 
AFAIK, observing something changes its state, so while you're gleaning enough information to determine a future state you've already invalidated your projections.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Yes, I believe it is. Science hasn't advanced to the point where we can say with any certainty whether or not the universe is completely deterministic, so in the end each of our views here is based as much on our personal biases or outlook on life as it is on fact.
Click to expand...

How do you account for chaos?
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like what?
 
Originally posted by: ICRS
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
Click to expand...

it's like checkers and chess.

checkers has been solved. the computer CANNOT lose since every move has been calculated.

with a fast enuf computer, chess will be solved one day.

multiple that by infinum, and you solve the universe.
 
You'd have to simulate EVERY particle in the universe in order to predict everything. And we can't even simulate the effect of a butterfly flapping its wings, because that involves billions of molecules.
 
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
You'd have to simulate EVERY particle in the universe in order to predict everything. And we can't even simulate the effect of a butterfly flapping its wings, because that involves billions of molecules.
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You don't even have to do that. Just simulate the computer that is doing the simulation to get the answer.
 
Originally posted by: ICRS
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
Click to expand...

Impossible. Look up Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.
 
Originally posted by: JEDI
Originally posted by: ICRS
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
Click to expand...

it's like checkers and chess.

checkers has been solved. the computer CANNOT lose since every move has been calculated.

with a fast enuf computer, chess will be solved one day.

multiple that by infinum, and you solve the universe.
Click to expand...

I guess you mean infinity. Precisely how do you get infinite anything?

That's the problem.

Semantics is the problem here I think. Since the universe had an initial starting condition, yes it's deterministic. That means little to mere mortals though. You have to be God, or as good as to predict what happens next. You would need to know the initial conditions with infinite precision to figure out how things unfold.

So I would say that the universe in strict terms is deterministic, but it's absolutely impossible to predict what happens down the road, except in broad terms.
 
We CAN know everything that will happen in the future. Only problem is, we don't have a supercomputer FAST nor strong enough to compute all the atomic and subatomic particles throughout the universe. IF we could calculate every single item and the physics applied to it, and if we could do it faster than what happens in real life, it would be possible.

But technically, I doubt it because that would be a simulation of the universe the to the exact subatomic and atomic particles, which I bet is unreachable in nature, as you can't exceed the speed of light, and that probably applies to 100%-exact simulation, too.


 
Originally posted by: videogames101
It's impossible to know everything, so for all intents and purposes of humans, no, it is not predetermined.

Whether if you did know everything, you could determine it, is basically unknowable, because it is inherently impossible to know everything, because you could then alter the so-called "predetermined" sate of the universe.
Click to expand...


I disagree with that argument if I knew every what is to say I would have the free will to make any changes to the predetermined state.
 
Originally posted by: RESmonkey
We CAN know everything that will happen in the future. Only problem is, we don't have a supercomputer FAST nor strong enough to compute all the atomic and subatomic particles throughout the universe. IF we could calculate every single item and the physics applied to it, and if we could do it faster than what happens in real life, it would be possible.

But technically, I doubt it because that would be a simulation of the universe the to the exact subatomic and atomic particles, which I bet is unreachable in nature, as you can't exceed the speed of light, and that probably applies to 100%-exact simulation, too.
Click to expand...

Nope, because that computer would be part of the universe, and it would therefore have to calculate all it's possible states, and that would then change the current state of the computer, which would require a bigger computer,to figure that out, but THAT would be part of the universe, and therefore you would need a bigger computer...

It's impossible in principle.
 
Originally posted by: ICRS
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
Click to expand...

Yes it is pre-determined. The universe isn't random, there is definitely orderliness in the universe. Gandhi said this based on his experience, let me know if you want that audio recording (5 mins)- he talks about Universe, God and other facts.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

I guess you mean infinity. Precisely how do you get infinite anything?

That's the problem.

Semantics is the problem here I think. Since the universe had an initial starting condition, yes it's deterministic. That means little to mere mortals though. You have to be God, or as good as to predict what happens next. You would need to know the initial conditions with infinite precision to figure out how things unfold.

So I would say that the universe in strict terms is deterministic, but it's absolutely impossible to predict what happens down the road, except in broad terms.
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I agree with you that the controversy is largely semantic, but I do not think the idea that "the universe had an initial starting condition" is supportable given the evidence.

Moreover, and in my opinion at least (and the opinion of several prominent physicists), the evidence indicates that reality is in fact a bit of both determinism and indeterminism. That is to say, the outcomes of events are probabilistic, yet each possible probability does inevitably actualize in fact in some universe within a larger multiverse.
 
Originally posted by: Aberforth
Originally posted by: ICRS
What is your thought. Is there any actual randomness in the universe, or is it all predetermined. The state of any atom in the future can be determined if we have enough knowledge about it today.
Click to expand...

Yes it is pre-determined. The universe isn't random, there is definitely orderliness in the universe. Gandhi said this based on his experience, let me know if you want that audio recording (5 mins)- he talks about Universe, God and other facts.
Click to expand...

"Orderly" and "non-random" are not synonyms for "pre-determined."
 
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