Is the Theory of Evolution on the ropes?

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PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,607
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There is little point. My judgment that I just dropped off in this thread was proven quickly. Threads like this exist only for people to tell other people they are wrong and then spend the next week finding new reasons to mock or otherwise insult them. There is no "give and take" like you believe. I personally can't even attempt a conversation because immediately, like you can see plainly here, my faith is attacked. I have never brought up religion in these threads, but as soon as I post anything the vultures swoop in.

As far as my beliefs in things outside this topic, I have answered all questions that I have seen and told people time and again to PM me. I have never been shy about the things I believe.

I admit that not every thoughtful post is rewarded by equally thoughful replies, however there is often enough intelligent "give and take" to induce me to participate in ATOT threads (even if it means wading through some garbage posts).

It's also true that assertions we post on controversial subjects (including science and religion) will be challenged by others whose views are different from our own. You're right that a disappointingly large share of responses come across as "attacks" (e.g. name calling, put-downs, unsupported imperatives), but our skins need to be thick enough to sluff those off. The reward comes when a challenge gives us something to think about (and maybe when our challenges do the same for someone else).

It seems to me, however, that "hit-and-run" posts like the judgment you dropped off in this thread are virtually guaranteed to trigger the "response in kind" that you dislike. Maybe it's time for a change?
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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the 'north pole' has meaning because it is defined as the furthest north you can do: this is a word-game. The big-bang being the definition of the start of the temporal-arrow of entropy is, on the other hand, a physical reality that needs no word-game to prove.
No, in fact time is an abstract coordinate superimposed on reality in exactly the same way longitude and latitude are abstract coordinates superimposed on the surface of the earth. They have identical ontologies.
 

Malak

Lifer
Dec 4, 2004
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It seems to me, however, that "hit-and-run" posts like the judgment you dropped off in this thread are virtually guaranteed to trigger the "response in kind" that you dislike. Maybe it's time for a change?

I don't recall seeing you in previous conversations on this same topic, but I have in fact attempted to discuss it before. Nobody is interested in changing their mind or learning anything, this is not an actual discussion and never will be. This simply isn't the proper forum for it. Ultimately, there is no point anyway. I have discovered more than a decade ago that topics like this aren't actually relevant. No amount of scientific study has ever given us anything concrete on things that occurred 1000+ years ago. Historical accounts are either accepted or not, for no rational reason, and arguments ensue in every case. There are far too many variables to properly discover half of what we already think we know. And while millions of people waste billions of dollars and man hours trying to figure it out, wars rage and entire civilizations disappear. Languages are forgotten. Entire cultures vanish. People die for no reason due to lack of resources that are in ample supply.

So my judgment stands, you are all wrong. I said it more than a decade ago, and will continue to say it. Nothing else is worth saying.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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No, in fact time is an abstract coordinate superimposed on reality in exactly the same way longitude and latitude are abstract coordinates superimposed on the surface of the earth. They have identical ontologies.
I specifically referred to the arrow of time as defined by entropy: NOT clock-time as defined by man, which is indeed just as much a word-game as north is.


You are saying that we can't go back before Planck epoch for the same reason we can't go past 0degrees north latitude.

I'm telling you that the temporal arrow of time has a true and reasonable start that was not created by man's word-games but, instead, is factual in existence without word-games.

North, on the other hand, is just a chosen spot. We can't go any further logically, because we created north and then defined it as that from which we can no longer go any further north from.

But the ontology of north is a word-game: a semi-randomly chosen spot on the earth which could just a reasonably been called 2degrees north latitude, with some other spot chosen as 0degrees.

We can not choose another spot in time for the big-bang. It is not some logical word-game meaning "beginning"; as opposed to north, which is a logical word-game meaning "top of the world". instead it can be factually traced back through the arrow of entropy to it's origin.


The distinction is slight as few people care to inspect weather their reality is based on word games or a hermeneutic facticity of being.



Let's get at your philosophy of reality so we can avoid speaking cross-purposes:

Is it possible to falsify a statement?
Is falsification the goal of scientific inquiry?
What are scientists supposed to do when the data do not share the same enthusiasm that they have for the hypothesis?
no amount of scientific study has ever given us anything concrete on things that occurred 1000+ years ago.
What do you mean by concrete? like... concrete?

'cause we have concrete that's over 1k years old... so... Is concrete concrete enough for you?

You lazy troll.
 
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busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
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The human being is not the lord of beings, but the shepherd of Being.

And he is doing a very bad job at that.

What are scientists supposed to do when the data do not share the same enthusiasm that they have for the hypothesis?

Emotions come into play usually. It will take sometime to come out of a shell.. it also depends on the reputation of the scientist.. and finally it falls into the realms of politics. This goes on until someone achieves a breakthrough.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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cliffs:

Fuck Kant.
And he is doing a very bad job at that.



Emotions come into play usually. It will take sometime to come out of a shell.. it also depends on the reputation of the scientist.. and finally it falls into the realms of politics. This goes on until someone achieves a breakthrough.

You're getting somewhere; But you are still trapped in the false hypothesis-testing word game.

Try thinking of the falsification-positivism you grew up with another way:
Positivism:

The theory is that a proposition is a scientific one if it is something that can be falsified. Now we don't have to have the means of testing if the idea is false, it just has to be logically possible to falsify the proposition. If we needed to have a means to falsify the proposition then we would have to say that empirical laws of physics are, themselves, not scientific.

When we test something we assume every other idea that supports those things you are testing. We have to assume as true the nomiological network that supports our independent, dependent and measurement. If we assume that we reject falsified ideas this all works out just fine; though with this assumption we must also be willing to reject everything we think we know that was built on the assumption of anything that is at some point falsified.

Let's pretend that our replication doesn't come out the way we expected... We've falsified! Except... what have we falsified? Was it the our hypothesis, or was it the quality of our instruments; barring contamination and bad tools.... what underlying assumed theory did we falsify? Look at the basic physics of reality; either quantum uncertainty is false or reality doesn't exist outside of the observer.

Let's consider our present argument... There are a plethora of underlying, hopefully falsifiable, assumptions that must be made to support a top-level theory like evolution. No matter how true evolution is: there will always be another gap into which a falsifiable but un-testable hypothesis may be interjected. You see, there is always another falsifiable but un-testable hypothesis that can be thrown at the assumed falsifiable but un-testable hypothesis.

By virtue of it's own definition, by virtue of the need to be falsifiable lest it be unscientific, positivism is falsified. Which should cause us to shed few tears. It was dead on arrival, a lie we told school children so they would stop thinking from the animistic. A way to look for causality in our reality that doesn't ascribe to this causality some supernatural entity. We never intended to find a special-case black-swan and then falsify our ideas about swans... instead we intend to contextualize our ideas about swans. (ie, they ARE black... when you cover them in oil).

The real change here is understanding that there is no observation out side the observer. Every scientific scrip should have the word "I" in it, with an attempt at explaining the bias of the I; if only because without it the tacit-bais of the "I" is left hidden. We are post-positivist in our behavior, in our science and we should be in our philosophy of science. I'm not saying that all reality is a word-game, as the post-modernist may argue, but I am saying that without understanding your own bias and assumptions (and then making them know) you fail to share the full and true context of your understanding.

Worse yet, you become bias in a way you assume is not bias, in a way that you never reflect on, in a way that never allows you to move into theory that transcends present understanding and truly extends our knowledge of the world.
 
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PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,607
787
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I don't recall seeing you in previous conversations on this same topic, but I have in fact attempted to discuss it before. Nobody is interested in changing their mind or learning anything, this is not an actual discussion and never will be. This simply isn't the proper forum for it. Ultimately, there is no point anyway. I have discovered more than a decade ago that topics like this aren't actually relevant. No amount of scientific study has ever given us anything concrete on things that occurred 1000+ years ago. Historical accounts are either accepted or not, for no rational reason, and arguments ensue in every case. There are far too many variables to properly discover half of what we already think we know. And while millions of people waste billions of dollars and man hours trying to figure it out, wars rage and entire civilizations disappear. Languages are forgotten. Entire cultures vanish. People die for no reason due to lack of resources that are in ample supply.

So my judgment stands, you are all wrong. I said it more than a decade ago, and will continue to say it. Nothing else is worth saying.

Now that's better! :thumbsup:

If I understand you correctly, you are of the opinion that all efforts to understand the past through scientific inquiry are futile and therefore a dilusional waste of resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

I'm curious to know if you think the histories we have assembeled through archeological digs and the study of artifacts for ancient civilizations (e.g. the Greeks and Romans) are wrong. Also whether or not geological studies that point to future events (e.g. earthquakes and volcanic eruptions) based on what seems to have happened in the past are incorrect. And perhaps more to the topic at hand, is there nothing that we can deduce about the distant past from fossils?

I'm still curious...
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
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I specifically referred to the arrow of time as defined by entropy: NOT clock-time as defined by man, which is indeed just as much a word-game as north is.
Then you're not talking about time. Moreover, the "entropy of the universe" is undefined. It is meaningless to talk about total entropy of the universe without a demonstration that the total energy of the universe is finite.

You are saying that we can't go back before Planck epoch for the same reason we can't go past 0degrees north latitude.
And that is true.

I'm telling you that the temporal arrow of time has a true and reasonable start that was not created by man's word-games but, instead, is factual in existence without word-games.
You are confusing the territory with the map. The north pole is also a place in reality "that was not created by man's word-games," but the coordinate we use to label that place is equally abstract as time t = 0.

North, on the other hand, is just a chosen spot. We can't go any further logically, because we created north and then defined it as that from which we can no longer go any further north from.
As relativity has taught us, all locations in space-time are relative to the observer. As a consequence, space-time coordinates are "chosen spots" as much as 0 degrees north latitude is. Time only appears less arbitrary because the entirety of the human population is moving in a relatively uniform frame of reference.

But the ontology of north is a word-game: a semi-randomly chosen spot on the earth which could just a reasonably been called 2degrees north latitude, with some other spot chosen as 0degrees.
Time is no different.

We can not choose another spot in time for the big-bang.
We cannot choose another spot for the north pole, either. We can label them both differently, if we like, however.

It is not some logical word-game meaning "beginning"; as opposed to north, which is a logical word-game meaning "top of the world". instead it can be factually traced back through the arrow of entropy to it's origin.
Again, you are arbitrarily aligning the big bang with time t = 0 in exactly the same way as we arbitrarily align 0 degrees north to the "top of the earth," as you put it.


The distinction is slight as few people care to inspect weather their reality is based on word games or a hermeneutic facticity of being.
Time is not a brute fact, and I'd suggest you inform your physics from physicists rather than philosophers.



Let's get at your philosophy of reality so we can avoid speaking cross-purposes:

Is it possible to falsify a statement?
It is possible to falsify a statement beyond reasonable doubt. It is not possible to falsify solipsism, but if two people can agree on some reasonable assumptions about reality, then it is possible to agree upon some levels of reasonable and unreasonable doubt.

Is falsification the goal of scientific inquiry?
I'd say that the goal of scientific inquiry is to acquire reliable knowledge about reality, and that its method is to falsify hypotheses.

What are scientists supposed to do when the data do not share the same enthusiasm that they have for the hypothesis?
That kinda depends on the situation. Measurement errors, for example, do not falsify hypotheses, but assuming reliable data which disagrees with predictions, the hypothesis should at the very least be reformulated.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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assuming reliable data which disagrees with predictions, the hypothesis should at the very least be reformulated.
But which one? The immediate one under examination, or one of the pile that underlie what you are supposing to test? There's no way to know what you've falsified, to know what contextual factors all come together to lead to the conclusion you've reached. So instead we guess... and a good guess at that! But if data doesn't share our enthusiasm for the hypothesis then we don't reject our enthusiasm, we find a way to box-in our rejection of our enthusiasm. A dialog of these behaviors is what forms science as it is actually practiced, and as I would argue it should be practiced.

Again, you are arbitrarily aligning the big bang with time t = 0 in exactly the same way as we arbitrarily align 0 degrees north to the "top of the earth," as you put it.
Except that the big bang is a physical reality that need not be labeled to have the impact that it did; we must label the north pole, lest it be meaningless.

You see, north is not a fundamental fact of nature: it is a social construct; The big bang doesn't care if you name it or not, it is the origin of the universe: it is that it is. You switch your level of reasoning without noticing though! You go from the ontic-reality of the big-bang to the ontological human importance of the big-bang.

Don't be confused: You first used ontology in a way that was a reference to Aristotelian ontology, that is the categorization of things as they are perceived. I am now using a heideggerian distinction: the ontic vs. the ontological. That is the factual world vs. the logic we put to the facts of the world.

Typically the conceptualization of a thing is linked to our empiricism as it relates to the thing. We conflate physical reality with our sensory perception of the thing and then question our perceptions by asking epistemological questions. In fact the physical reality of a thing is there well before our perception of it; which means that an object precedes itself. Further, an object that we create precedes itself in our understanding of it before it physically exists. So, as you can see, there is a distinction between that which we can utilize (north, t=0) and that which is physically real(the big bang, the spot on the ground we call north).

I understand that severing your understanding of physical reality from the facts of human cognition can be hard; particularly since our reality is only constructed in our minds to consist of those things that we, unthinkingly, find handy for some reason or another. So wake up, understand the limits of your own cognition and realize that science is a dialog among earnest investigators using the best tools they can find... not a "let's falsify this one now" society of emotionally-distant dis-interested cynics and skeptics.
 
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Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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I tend to think of it as the Mind of God made flesh. His ideas manifested thorugh multiple layers(Tree of Life worlds) down to the physical.
BTW Christians, Jesus accepts you as you are with the understanding that you are going to change.
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Intelligent design does not preclude evolution. It merely enhances it by adding intelligence into the mix.

I'm not going to go thorugh all of these posts, but you sir are ignorant and closed minded. You claim Pro-Evolution supporters take a "leap of faith" to believe in Evolution, yet you don't think that's what you are doing to believe there is a "creator". You can not prove, test, or observe in any way a "creator" thus you and your kind are the ones taking a leap of faith.

I fail to see how anyone can think that way. I stopped going to church when I was 9 or 10. I simply told my mom, this is all make believe, and done as a means of taking peoples money.

Sit back and think a bit ( I know it's hard for Creationist type) But why if there was an "Intelligent Designer" is the world so screwed up? Why are there so many horrible diseases and maladies that affect people, including children?
The only answer I ever get is, God works in mysterious ways. Which means. You don't have an answer.

edit: Damn, didn't see this was an old thread EVOLVED from the past.
 

Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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Karma
Apparently reincarnation was once part of the bible but nearly all references to it were removed because of politics.
Example when the diciples asked Jesus what the guy did to deserve being born lame and diseased He replied it was because of the sin of his past life.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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I tend to think of it as the Mind of God made flesh. His ideas manifested thorugh multiple layers(Tree of Life worlds) down to the physical.
BTW Christians, Jesus accepts you as you are with the understanding that you are going to change.

No, the South will not rise again.
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
8,793
5
76
I tend to think of it as the Mind of God made flesh. His ideas manifested thorugh multiple layers(Tree of Life worlds) down to the physical.
BTW Christians, Jesus accepts you as you are with the understanding that you are going to change.

Why doesn't he change it himself? Also, WTF is god primarily male? I find it pretty sexist.
 

Onceler

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
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According to my beliefs God is both female and male(hermaphrodite kind of).
Yin and Yang sort of thing.