Is the sheriff right or wrong about his stand on Narcan?

[theeedude]

The same principle should apply to any medical procedure for many reasons including the liability of using such devices. Only trained medical professionals should be administering medication to patients especially when their lives hang in the balance which I believe is the ethical thing to do. Do you want a hairdresser performing orthopedic surgery on you? I think not.

Epipens are designed to be administered by non medical professionals, like parents or teachers. My understanding is that Narcan is a nasal spray, not a surgical procedure.

 

[xthetenth]

The same principle should apply to any medical procedure for many reasons including the liability of using such devices. Only trained medical professionals should be administering medication to patients especially when their lives hang in the balance which I believe is the ethical thing to do. Do you want a hairdresser performing orthopedic surgery on you? I think not.

Orthopedic surgery isn't life threatening, and if it's done wrong it'd be mutilation.

In a more analogous situation, I would want someone untrained using an automatic defibrillator on me rather than leaving my heart attack going thank you very much. Narcan is a lot like that. There isn't much of an upper limit on the safe dose, it's a nasal spray that's easy to administer, and it gets people breathing again. Breathing is important for things like avoiding brain damage, and there's not much risk of damage if it's misadministered.

Meanwhile:

Doling out extra medical intervention when someone has overdosed could put his deputies in danger from people trying to hide drugs or avoid prosecution, he said. And addicts, he claims, can wake up agitated and combative when Narcan puts them into immediate withdrawal, an assertion that has been disputed as an outdated stereotype.

How does the first even happen? They give someone Narcan and then they wake up and start trying to hide evidence? That's definitely an interesting angle.

Secondly, I'm not sure the sheriff is aware but generally police officers are exceptionally well equipped for restraining people. In fact, that's the focus of most of their equipment! But no, it's easier to let people die.

 

[Sunburn74]

I think the point the sheriff in question is clumsily trying to argue for is resisting the expansion of police responsibilities in society. Essentially giving narcan is something that generally falls under the jurisdiction of medical professionals. As he stated, police officers are not responsible for giving insulin shots or glucose shots or asthma treatments and etc. Why should they be responsible for giving narcan if they are the first to arrive? Yes it can save lives, but again its a matter of responsibilities and training and if they start with Narcan, where does it end?

Ultimately no one wants to see their job duties expand without any return in pay or benefits or something to that effect. So in part I can agree with his argument.

 

[brycejones]

The same principle should apply to any medical procedure for many reasons including the liability of using such devices. Only trained medical professionals should be administering medication to patients especially when their lives hang in the balance which I believe is the ethical thing to do. Do you want a hairdresser performing orthopedic surgery on you? I think not.

It isn't surgery and like an epipen and automatic defibrillators, narcan is a tool designed to be administered by non-medically trained professionals.

 

[jmagg]

Narcan is a tool designed to be administered by anyone. Only recently it became intranasal, not long ago by injection by anyone with a very short training.

 

[xthetenth]

I'm pretty sure cops in a lot of jurisdictions carry AEDs already, incidentally.

 

[disappoint]

http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_netw...cle_fe47ae67-eac7-5fe6-9bee-7e6bc87e878d.html

Can you support your position with a description of how you see it?

The best course of action is to save lives whenever feasible.

Secondly, I'm not sure the sheriff is aware but generally police officers are exceptionally well equipped for restraining people. In fact, that's the focus of most of their equipment! But no, it's easier to let people die.

Why would he be unaware of that? Was he the Sheriff of Nottingham during medieval times and was just now reanimated?

 

[xthetenth]

Why would he be unaware of that? Was he the Sheriff of Nottingham during medieval times and was just now reanimated?

It sounds like he has tried very hard to preserve any ignorance he might have on the subject. Elected positions can get weird.

 

[Sunburn74]

Narcan is a tool designed to be administered by anyone. Only recently it became intranasal, not long ago by injection by anyone with a very short training.

Ease of administration is not the issue. It's more about responsibilities. Narcan use in a non-hospital setting typically falls under EMS responsibilities.

Police officers don't want to be held liable for failing to administer it if they misdiagnose an opiod overdose or administering it inappropriately (at least without getting something in return like increased pay).

Imagine if at your job, all of a sudden you were told that you were legally responsible for putting out small fires with fire extinguishers if possible or legally responsible for performing the heimlich maneuver on choking co-workers or legally responsible for doing CPR? Whilst these are things the general public is able to do with minimal training and often does without direction, who wants the official additional legal responsibility?

 

[Jaskalas]

Storage and Handling

Store at controlled room temperature 59°F to 77°F (15°C to 25°C). Excursions permitted up to 104°F (40°C). Do not freeze. Protect from light.​

How the hell is that going to happen in a police cruiser?

 

[DrunkenSano]

What sucks is with how easy lawsuits can be filed these days, I can already see this being abused. Police are now charged with the duty of administering Narcan, there is an incident where it was ineffective. Family of the "victim" files a lawsuit for easy $$$.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Would you feel the same way if we were talking about an epipen?

The problem is we are NOT talking about an Epipen......so I see no contributing factor....

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'm good with that...

ditto.....

 

[Victorian Gray]

Seems like the sheriff fits right in with the area he lives:

"Butler County is the same place were a Middletown city councilman floated a three-strikes-style policy for people who repeatedly overdose: Too many and authorities wouldn't send an ambulance to resuscitate them.

Councilman Dan Picard told The Washington Post that responding to an ever-increasing number of overdose calls threatens to bleed his city dry. He wanted the city's lawyers to determine whether they could legally refuse to render aid to someone who keeps overdosing."

 

[Jhhnn]

Ease of administration is not the issue. It's more about responsibilities. Narcan use in a non-hospital setting typically falls under EMS responsibilities.

Police officers don't want to be held liable for failing to administer it if they misdiagnose an opiod overdose or administering it inappropriately (at least without getting something in return like increased pay).

Imagine if at your job, all of a sudden you were told that you were legally responsible for putting out small fires with fire extinguishers if possible or legally responsible for performing the heimlich maneuver on choking co-workers or legally responsible for doing CPR? Whilst these are things the general public is able to do with minimal training and often does without direction, who wants the official additional legal responsibility?

There's just one catch-

The medicine in NARCAN® Nasal Spray has no effect in people who are not taking opioid medicines

https://www.narcan.com/

Administering it can't be wrong.

 

[K1052]

Storage and Handling

Store at controlled room temperature 59°F to 77°F (15°C to 25°C). Excursions permitted up to 104°F (40°C). Do not freeze. Protect from light.​

How the hell is that going to happen in a police cruiser?

AFAIK most departments have officers carry it in their duty bags. Also about the only time I see a cruiser not running is if it's parked in the motor pool lot.

 

[Moonbeam]

Seems like the sheriff fits right in with the area he lives:

"Butler County is the same place were a Middletown city councilman floated a three-strikes-style policy for people who repeatedly overdose: Too many and authorities wouldn't send an ambulance to resuscitate them.

Councilman Dan Picard told The Washington Post that responding to an ever-increasing number of overdose calls threatens to bleed his city dry. He wanted the city's lawyers to determine whether they could legally refuse to render aid to someone who keeps overdosing."

Interesting. This would imply that the ethics people receive is the ethics they express. That would be bad news for people who hate themselves, if they had sufficient consciousness to notice it, which I am sure they don't. Maybe the golden rule as we practice it should be, do to me what I want done to them

 

[pauldun170]

If there is a general blanket policy on administering medical aide (No baby delivering, no CPR, no AED and a first aid kit that is pretty much 'tactical print' bandaids and a wicked eye patch) then I would say Mr Sheriff is free to let the community he serves die off.
I'll gladly send him a box of "Not my Job" T-shirts.

 

[Moonbeam]

The best course of action is to save lives whenever feasible.

Seems financial considerations are involved in addition to ethical ones. How much ethics can we afford??????

 

[agent00f]

http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_netw...cle_fe47ae67-eac7-5fe6-9bee-7e6bc87e878d.html

Can you support your position with a description of how you see it?

What are the duties of a police officer? If a policeman arrives on the scene of a car crash and a victim is trapped in a burning car, are they required to help save them? Is providing medical attention part of their job?

I'd have to know those things first before I could give an answer to your question.

Morally speaking it would seem that police officers would have such a duty but is policing about morality or simply enforcing the law the best way officers see fit?

It's pretty obvious from his statement that the sheriff has an agenda here:

"I'm not the one that decides if people live or die. They decide that when they stick that needle in their arm."

Funny pretense when he's already decided to be judge/jury/executioner.

 

[Puffnstuff]

If they are forced to carry it the city should pass an ordinance making the dopeheads attend rehab if they have to be revived for drug use. If they fail to follow through then they should be denied future services when they OD. Money is limited and the public cannot be held responsible for people who will not behave responsibly for themselves. The snowflakes can grovel all they want to but if they had to go out of pocket at a personal level each time someone deliberately used drugs they'd change their stance on this.

 

[Moonbeam]

That was easy, wrong. He's saying he won't act to help the public based on inaccurate information.

I was hoping you'd be back because you are much better than I am at ferreting out inaccurate information than I am, so I will do as best I can to find it:

Sheriff's argument 1: "We don't do the shots for bee stings, we don't inject diabetic people with insulin. When does it stop?" he told The Washington Post. Ignoring the validity of the question, those things he listed I assume must be accurate.

2: "I'm not the one that decides if people live or die. They decide that when they stick that needle in their arm."

Well as pure information it does seem that he is not the one making anybody overdose.

3. Jones said Narcan is the wrong approach for a war on opioids that "we're not winning," and said he favored stronger prevention efforts to prevent people from first using the drug.

I would say that Narcan will not win the war of opioid addiction and that an ounce of prevention and all that...

4: He told The Post that drug addiction has ravaged this country and his county, and he's seen the worst of it. He said deputies encountered a man in the jail parking who had just been bailed out by his mother. Both were shooting up heroin in her car. In his time as sheriff, three babies had been born in the jail addicted to drugs, including one in a toilet, Jones said.

This anecdotal information is probably factual...

5: Doling out extra medical intervention when someone has overdosed could put his deputies in danger from people trying to hide drugs or avoid prosecution, he said. And addicts, he claims, can wake up agitated and combative when Narcan puts them into immediate withdrawal, an assertion that has been disputed as an outdated stereotype.

Is this then what you were referring to? It seems he may be rationalizing his position here.

If this is what you were referring to and if he is wrong here, does that make his position wrong in light of his other concerns regardless of this misinformation?

 

[agent00f]

I was hoping you'd be back because you are much better than I am at ferreting out inaccurate information than I am, so I will do as best I can to find it:

Sheriff's argument 1: "We don't do the shots for bee stings, we don't inject diabetic people with insulin. When does it stop?" he told The Washington Post. Ignoring the validity of the question, those things he listed I assume must be accurate.

2: "I'm not the one that decides if people live or die. They decide that when they stick that needle in their arm."

Well as pure information it does seem that he is not the one making anybody overdose.

3. Jones said Narcan is the wrong approach for a war on opioids that "we're not winning," and said he favored stronger prevention efforts to prevent people from first using the drug.

I would say that Narcan will not win the war of opioid addiction and that an ounce of prevention and all that...

4: He told The Post that drug addiction has ravaged this country and his county, and he's seen the worst of it. He said deputies encountered a man in the jail parking who had just been bailed out by his mother. Both were shooting up heroin in her car. In his time as sheriff, three babies had been born in the jail addicted to drugs, including one in a toilet, Jones said.

This anecdotal information is probably factual...

5: Doling out extra medical intervention when someone has overdosed could put his deputies in danger from people trying to hide drugs or avoid prosecution, he said. And addicts, he claims, can wake up agitated and combative when Narcan puts them into immediate withdrawal, an assertion that has been disputed as an outdated stereotype.

Is this then what you were referring to? It seems he may be rationalizing his position here.

If this is what you were referring to and if he is wrong here, does that make his position wrong in light of his other concerns regardless of this misinformation?

You can certainly play dumb with the best of them.

 

[zzyzxroad]

It would be nice to get a opium addict's perspective on this. Anyone see if rush has commented on this case?

 

[Moonbeam]

It's pretty obvious from his statement that the sheriff has an agenda here:

"I'm not the one that decides if people live or die. They decide that when they stick that needle in their arm."

Funny pretense when he's already decided to be judge/jury/executioner.

I couldn't agree more. The moment I read his remarks I saw in him what I see in you, contempt of others for their inferior morality.....two absolute moral certainties that differ not one ounce in certitude or contempt, but about who has the right to it.

The truth is that neither of you have that right. The victims of your contempt need to be saved. People take opioids to escape physical and then psychic pain, to the point of death because of their terror of that pain. The sheriff can't bear the pain of compassion. He was trained to hold in contempt his own human feelings. All of it is nothing but self hate. The perp is the victim and the victim the perp. You refuse to see this because it would cost you your hate. Your hate is the one ring and it is precious to you.