Is the *impact* of Piracy on PC Gaming Overstated?

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Build it Myself

then don't steal shit .. simple really .. BUY the good games
-let the bad devs got out of business without any 'help' from pirating the garbage that they produce

there is NO JUSTIFICATION for pirating [period]
- or else MURDER can ALSO be justified - because they "deserved it" ?
that is r-i-d-c-u-l-o-u-s selfish lack of reasoning

------------
ZzZGuy is right .. they are going to SECURE gaming because of Pirates ,,, they WILL fix it and you SUCKERs - leeches, really for the free ride will finally get get bumped off .. and the rest of us may get FINALLY some solid benefits from PC gaming
-Pirates can go to hell :|

you're telling me you'd spend $30 of your earned money on this? http://pc.ign.com/articles/854/854624p1.html it scored a...duh duh duh...4 out of 10. I wouldn't buy this for $30, but for maybe $1 I would pick it up just to see how bad it really was...I wouldn't pay retail just to confirm what the reviews said, who would?[/quote][/quote]



i am not *stupid* .. i do not walk blindly into Best Buy and pick a game with a pretty cover and with cool advertising ... i read reviews - check OUR forums .. and if there is ANY doubt i find out first

:roll:

you are NOT talking to a ten-year old asking mommy to buy me a game :|

[12, maybe - i have been here 8 years! 😛]
😀

and you have to *realize* that some of these PC games are "gems in the rough" .. for whatever reason, they are unplayable garbage at release - B&W2, NWN2 and Gothic3 instantly come to mind - and months later, even with community support they are patched and polished and modified into something that is truly excellent .. that is what the BARGAIN BIN is for

 

[sandorski]

Wasn't DX10 supposed to solve Piracy by simply not Installing games to HDs? I vaguely recall such a feature mentioned years ago.

 

[GundamSonicZeroX]

Originally posted by: Build it Myself
you're telling me you'd spend $30 of your earned money on this?

He said only buy the good games.

Not to completely turn the topic around, but what do you guys think of piracy of abandonware or obsolete consoles (ie. DLing SNES ROMS)?

The only piracy I do is the latter. I refuse to buy a game that will not go to the developers, but instead to some collector's pocket. If the game is available as a remake/port, I'll buy the remake. I do have an M3 DS Real, but I have the games that are on the card. I have the card merely for conviniece.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: GundamSonicZeroX

Originally posted by: Build it Myself
you're telling me you'd spend $30 of your earned money on this?

He said only buy the good games.

Not to completely turn the topic around, but what do you guys think of piracy of abandonware or obsolete consoles (ie. DLing SNES ROMS)?

The only piracy I do is the latter. I refuse to buy a game that will not go to the developers, but instead to some collector's pocket. If the game is available as a remake/port, I'll buy the remake. I do have an M3 DS Real, but I have the games that are on the card. I have the card merely for conviniece.

i did, thanks!

honestly, in my own personal opinion ..
--it's all your conscience ... if you feel the need to justify it, it is probably "wrong" 😉

... and great words of wisdom that help people with different PoVs live together also spring to my mind like, "judge ye not" or "he that is without error cast the first stone"

also being *proactive* is really important ... besides "doing no harm" ... get our lazy asses out there and do some good!
--support the good devs by *buying* their games - as you are able to do so, even IF it means ONLY buying bargain bin games if you are really poor.

 

[ZzZGuy]

For the record, i still do not have issue with someone pirating a game for the purpose of evaluating it to decide whether or not to purchase the game.

A better solution would be to replace demo's with trail versions with X number of hours of free play before the game "disables" itself so you have to buy the game to continue (also being able to transfer the save game files to the full version would be nice). This would be a "complete" version of the game with only a limit on the number of hours you are able to play, i would also image that there would be no DRM related issues, just a timer and a "disable" feature. This version could be hosted not only on the developers site, but also as a torrent with the developers linking to "safe" torrents. No pirate related bugs and no worries about viruses. IMHO the "casual" gamer would chose this version as it is safe and easy to use/get, as well as forcing a end to the "trial" period where there is no limit on pirated versions. Some non gaming software already does this (though i'm not sure about the torrent idea).

I am not opposed to pirating a game if you had bought a copy and you lost the CD or something. You paid the developer already, and pirating a copy will have no impact on the developer money wise. The only negative will be the artificial inflation of the number of pirates.

I also am not opposed to no-CD cracks for single player games (tend to screw with multiplayer from my experience). Once again you already paid for it, and cracking it will not take money out of the hands of developers.

The legality of this is another matter but nothing man created is perfect, laws included.

 

[apoppin]

For the record, i still do not have issue with someone pirating a game for the purpose of evaluating it to decide whether or not to purchase the game.

and for the record, i will state that it is matter of personal conscience ... 'intention' and 'motivation' cannot accurately be judged by another person
- except to look at the End Results
--- does the "evaluator" keep the game after he decides it is "worthy" or unworthy?

imo, if someone decides to evaluate a game, they should decide 'quickly' and delete or pay for it
- do not keep it and continue playing without paying for it

seem logical ... in the meantime ... before it is predetermined for us by much more *secure gaming*
-invasive or not, they will not continue to tolerate piracy

The legality of this is another matter but nothing man created is perfect, laws included.

and that is why we live by the *principle* underlying most laws:

Treat others in a similar way to the way you want them to treat you
... fairly

 

[Mandin62]

Even though I have a about 400 DVD's worth of pirated games. Many of which I haven't played and probably never will. There are several games that I have pirated and bought. This is definitely not the norm and I have pirated far more then I have bought. But recently I have come to the conclusion, after Iron Lore went down, that I really need to start doing my part to support the industry that I love. Piracy is not justifiable in any way shape or form. People who pirate games do not buy. Saying devs need to make better games and that then and only then will you be willing to shell out 50 for it is a lie and all of you know it. These games take years to make and are good games. This is a huge problem and if we continue to cut away at our life line for games we are going to find ourselves in a very sad place.

Things I would like to see that I believe would help diminish piracy?
? More games on Steam. I don?t think every publisher needs a service like Steam. EA your shit sucks. Steam is a very easy and painless way of purchasing games and it also helps to keep pirates out. The library that Steam boasts in becoming more impressive every day. And thank God for that. Often times games are cheaper on Steam as well. Two Worlds for $10!
? Tougher enforcement of CD keys. I know this is not a perfect system but it is one that I think would be more accepted then installing things like StarForce. Take the time to setup serves where people are required to register their game.
? Reduce the price for new releases. I honestly believe that if the release prices for new games went from $50-60 down to $35-40 that more people would purchase games when they first come out. After all that is the prime time for piracy. If I could get 3 games for $100 instead of 2 I would be stoked. I mean that is an extra 20-40 hours of gaming fun for the same amount of money.
? Not that this would help diminish piracy but I would really like to see some sales figures for digital sales. Sales figures for Direct2Drive and Steam and that shit that EA has. I wonder if it would paint a little brighter picture?

 

[GundamSonicZeroX]

Originally posted by: apoppin
--it's all your conscience ... if you feel the need to justify it, it is probably "wrong" 😉

It's not so much my need to justify it, it's the reason why I do it. I just get pissed that collector's are making heap big cash from selling old games. It's not all the collector's fault, it's also the buyer's fault for buying these games at outrageous prices.

you're telling me you'd spend $30 of your earned money on this? http://pc.ign.com/articles/854/854624p1.html it scored a...duh duh duh...4 out of 10. I wouldn't buy this for $30, but for maybe $1 I would pick it up just to see how bad it really was...I wouldn't pay retail just to confirm what the reviews said, who would?

Back to this, that's why you play the demo first. To see if the game is worth the $30,$40,$60.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: GundamSonicZeroX

Originally posted by: apoppin
--it's all your conscience ... if you feel the need to justify it, it is probably "wrong" 😉

It's not so much my need to justify it, it's the reason why I do it. I just get pissed that collector's are making heap big cash from selling old games. It's not all the collector's fault, it's also the buyer's fault for buying these games at outrageous prices.

you're telling me you'd spend $30 of your earned money on this? http://pc.ign.com/articles/854/854624p1.html it scored a...duh duh duh...4 out of 10. I wouldn't buy this for $30, but for maybe $1 I would pick it up just to see how bad it really was...I wouldn't pay retail just to confirm what the reviews said, who would?

Back to this, that's why you play the demo first. To see if the game is worth the $30,$40,$60.

AGAIN .. the "you" is a very GENERAL 'you' .. not to you specifically
- English has this particular issue with singular and plural YOU

if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: jjones
The most interesting point I find is the statistic that stopping 1,000 copies from being pirated only generates 1 additional sale.

That's for a casual game no one has otherwise heard of.

AAA titles are another story.

The point is, if you're talking impact, what *you* think the numbers mean is irrelevant -- it's what the devs think the numbers mean. And they're voting with their feet out of PC gaming and into consoles.

If you want to see this trend reverse itself, do your bit to stop the rampant piracy.

 

[GundamSonicZeroX]

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

This might be antisocial of me, but I won't play a game at all if there is no demo. That is why I still haven't played Oblivion yet. All of my friends have said it's fun, but I won't buy it since it doesn't have a demo. I might buy it when it hits bargain bin prices along with my new rig when I build it. I know when you said "yours" you were using it in a general sense.

 

[imported_Imp]

I'm not going to call total BS, but the number may be a bit overinflated. Still, from my experience in highschool, I was practically the only person who bought PC games legally out of a big group of "nerds".

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: GundamSonicZeroX

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

This might be antisocial of me, but I won't play a game at all if there is no demo. That is why I still haven't played Oblivion yet. All of my friends have said it's fun, but I won't buy it since it doesn't have a demo. I might buy it when it hits bargain bin prices along with my new rig when I build it. I know when you said "yours" you were using it in a general sense.

i actually agree with you about Oblivion - even though i *loved* the game and playing it for 1,250 hours at the worst recent time in my life saved my sanity - it is a matter of *principle* - this time 'your' principle, and that imo is excellent! .. and it *will* be bargain bin [if it is not already, depending on your definition of bargain bin]

Your conscience' diagnostic subroutine appears to check out perfectly

🙂

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: apoppin

For the record, i still do not have issue with someone pirating a game for the purpose of evaluating it to decide whether or not to purchase the game.

and for the record, i will state that it is matter of personal conscience ... 'intention' and 'motivation' cannot accurately be judged by another person
- except to look at the End Results
--- does the "evaluator" keep the game after he decides it is "worthy" or unworthy?

imo, if someone decides to evaluate a game, they should decide 'quickly' and delete or pay for it
- do not keep it and continue playing without paying for it

seem logical ... in the meantime ... before it is predetermined for us by much more *secure gaming*
-invasive or not, they will not continue to tolerate piracy

The legality of this is another matter but nothing man created is perfect, laws included.

and that is why we live by the *principle* underlying most laws:

Treat others in a similar way to the way you want them to treat you
... fairly

Well you and I do not agree then. I believe in principle you should be able to pirate a game to evaluate or replace a game where the CD has been lost or damaged. As I have said before, the developer does not incur any losses from this. Stardock and steam remove the issues of having to pirate a game where you have lost the CD by allowing free downloads of games you have purchased.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: apoppin

For the record, i still do not have issue with someone pirating a game for the purpose of evaluating it to decide whether or not to purchase the game.

and for the record, i will state that it is matter of personal conscience ... 'intention' and 'motivation' cannot accurately be judged by another person
- except to look at the End Results
--- does the "evaluator" keep the game after he decides it is "worthy" or unworthy?

imo, if someone decides to evaluate a game, they should decide 'quickly' and delete or pay for it
- do not keep it and continue playing without paying for it

seem logical ... in the meantime ... before it is predetermined for us by much more *secure gaming*
-invasive or not, they will not continue to tolerate piracy

The legality of this is another matter but nothing man created is perfect, laws included.

and that is why we live by the *principle* underlying most laws:

Treat others in a similar way to the way you want them to treat you
... fairly

Well you and I do not agree then. I believe in principle you should be able to pirate a game to evaluate or replace a game where the CD has been lost or damaged. As I have said before, the developer does not incur any losses from this. Stardock and steam remove the issues of having to pirate a game where you have lost the CD by allowing free downloads of games you have purchased.

*where* did i say i disagree with that?
😕

i said it was a trained *conscience* that should dictate our own personal moral choices

... in THIS case - imo -you should not *continue* playing on after you decide it is worth it or not - and you should decide long before you are finished playing it. 😛

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: apoppin

For the record, i still do not have issue with someone pirating a game for the purpose of evaluating it to decide whether or not to purchase the game.

and for the record, i will state that it is matter of personal conscience ... 'intention' and 'motivation' cannot accurately be judged by another person
- except to look at the End Results
--- does the "evaluator" keep the game after he decides it is "worthy" or unworthy?

imo, if someone decides to evaluate a game, they should decide 'quickly' and delete or pay for it
- do not keep it and continue playing without paying for it

seem logical ... in the meantime ... before it is predetermined for us by much more *secure gaming*
-invasive or not, they will not continue to tolerate piracy

The legality of this is another matter but nothing man created is perfect, laws included.

and that is why we live by the *principle* underlying most laws:

Treat others in a similar way to the way you want them to treat you
... fairly

Well you and I do not agree then. I believe in principle you should be able to pirate a game to evaluate or replace a game where the CD has been lost or damaged. As I have said before, the developer does not incur any losses from this. Stardock and steam remove the issues of having to pirate a game where you have lost the CD by allowing free downloads of games you have purchased.

*where* did i say i disagree with that?
😕

i said it was a trained *conscience* that should dictate our own personal moral choices

... in THIS case - imo -you should not *continue* playing on after you decide it is worth it or not - and you should decide long before you are finished playing it. 😛

And yet you also compared piracy to murder :roll:

The only response to piracy you have given is 'it's theft' which makes it incredibly hard to have a discussion about it. You lump pirates in with criminals, and leave it at that. It has already been shown that stopping piracy doesn't lead to any substantial increase in revenues or units sold for the games. You'd think that stopping theft would increase sales, right? Well, it doesn't, so maybe it's not plain theft, maybe there's something more to it. Maybe it's indicative of the overall state of digital media and the corporations that are making profits.

Originally posted by: apoppin

All in all maybe they need to look at it as 90% of games today are crap...?

then why are these *bad* games being pirated?
😕

i won't take garbage ... doesn't matter if it 'free' or not 😛

ALL games are pirated. It doesn't matter if they are bad or not. If ALL games had demos, piracy rates would drop like crazy, because, whether or not you choose to believe it, there are a lot of pirates who download games simply to try them out. I'd make some examples, but I already almost got banned for discussing this, so you'll just have to take my word on it I guess. I don't even really understand what I can and cannot say, as the forum rules are lacking in that department, but let's just say that I have saved myself a lot of money that would have been wasted on horrid games.

It's almost like the publishers know that their games are shit, which is why they don't release demos. They want people to make the mistake of buying them. The games that do have demos are misleading too, take Jericho for example. I loved Undying, and had high hopes for Jericho. I played the demo, and it was alright, but then when I got the game, I realized that it was a shit console port with no replay value and shit button mashing puzzles. Needless to say, it got returned.

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

It's impossible to find someone with tastes like mine. Look at the hatred of STALKER and Crysis on these boards. I stopped trusting reviews a LONG time ago.

 

[Feneant2]

I used to pirate all my games except for MMORPG's but have now stopped. Would anyone care to venture a guess as to how many games (other than MMORPGs) I have bought since I have stopped pirating them around 5 years ago.

I have bought the Sid Meier's Civilization Chronicles because it was on clearance for 20$. That is the one single PC title I have purchased in 5 years. So while their claim might not be too far fetched, the reduction of piracy would NOT increase sales by 90%... I would say maybe 10-20% if they are lucky.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: apoppin

For the record, i still do not have issue with someone pirating a game for the purpose of evaluating it to decide whether or not to purchase the game.

and for the record, i will state that it is matter of personal conscience ... 'intention' and 'motivation' cannot accurately be judged by another person
- except to look at the End Results
--- does the "evaluator" keep the game after he decides it is "worthy" or unworthy?

imo, if someone decides to evaluate a game, they should decide 'quickly' and delete or pay for it
- do not keep it and continue playing without paying for it

seem logical ... in the meantime ... before it is predetermined for us by much more *secure gaming*
-invasive or not, they will not continue to tolerate piracy

The legality of this is another matter but nothing man created is perfect, laws included.

and that is why we live by the *principle* underlying most laws:

Treat others in a similar way to the way you want them to treat you
... fairly

Well you and I do not agree then. I believe in principle you should be able to pirate a game to evaluate or replace a game where the CD has been lost or damaged. As I have said before, the developer does not incur any losses from this. Stardock and steam remove the issues of having to pirate a game where you have lost the CD by allowing free downloads of games you have purchased.

*where* did i say i disagree with that?
😕

i said it was a trained *conscience* that should dictate our own personal moral choices

... in THIS case - imo -you should not *continue* playing on after you decide it is worth it or not - and you should decide long before you are finished playing it. 😛

And yet you also compared piracy to murder :roll:

You don't get it at all - i did NOT say that at all!!! :|
-or else you skim my posts just to pick crap out of context to pick on

The only response to piracy you have given is 'it's theft' which makes it incredibly hard to have a discussion about it. You lump pirates in with criminals, and leave it at that. It has already been shown that stopping piracy doesn't lead to any substantial increase in revenues or units sold for the games. You'd think that stopping theft would increase sales, right? Well, it doesn't, so maybe it's not plain theft, maybe there's something more to it. Maybe it's indicative of the overall state of digital media and the corporations that are making profits.

Not what *i* am saying at all. Maybe it's because *you* are taking it personally and feel you are somhow getting lumped in with "murders"
:roll:
don't blame me for something i do NOT say

Originally posted by: apoppin

All in all maybe they need to look at it as 90% of games today are crap...?

then why are these *bad* games being pirated?
😕

i won't take garbage ... doesn't matter if it 'free' or not 😛

ALL games are pirated. It doesn't matter if they are bad or not. If ALL games had demos, piracy rates would drop like crazy, because, whether or not you choose to believe it, there are a lot of pirates who download games simply to try them out. I'd make some examples, but I already almost got banned for discussing this, so you'll just have to take my word on it I guess. I don't even really understand what I can and cannot say, as the forum rules are lacking in that department, but let's just say that I have saved myself a lot of money that would have been wasted on horrid games.

It's almost like the publishers know that their games are shit, which is why they don't release demos. They want people to make the mistake of buying them. The games that do have demos are misleading too, take Jericho for example. I loved Undying, and had high hopes for Jericho. I played the demo, and it was alright, but then when I got the game, I realized that it was a shit console port with no replay value and shit button mashing puzzles. Needless to say, it got returned.

No excuses to JUSTIFY yourself, please - who cares?

if you don't want to buy shit then don't pirate shit either

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

It's impossible to find someone with tastes like mine. Look at the hatred of STALKER and Crysis on these boards. I stopped trusting reviews a LONG time ago.

That's what i thought also .. so i now *also* QUESTION those with tastes that are different - qualify 'why' they liked or dislike a game .. i have stopped buying ANY crap games anymore - i use what used to be called "common sense" .. unfortunately, i find it has become rare

 

[Canai]

Alright, you compared justifying piracy to justifying murder. Sorry I didn't include that bit.

You have stated multiple times that piracy is theft, plain and simple, and that there is no justification to piracy. This is what you believe. I, however, disagree with you on this, yet none of the reasons I give make any difference, you still stick to the 'piracy is theft, no justification, no matter what, doesn't matter if you buy the game or not, you're still a pirate and a thief.'

Finally, game reviews can NEVER be trusted. Ever. Bioshock got great reviews, and I loved SS2, so I picked it up on launch day. I'm never going to finish it because it became drab, boring, and very one-directional halfway through the game - I wish I would have pirated it and saved myself $50. Yet ALL the reviewers LOVED it. It is literally impossible to find a trustworthy review.

I can't afford to read reviews and go buy a new game without playing it first. I go to school full time and work part time, and my last paycheck was $120. I literally can't afford dropping $50 on a game based on reviews of people I've never met. If I pirate the game, and like it, I have sufficient confidence in it and I purchase it. ALL games need a try before you buy option. FEW have it.

Would you honestly prefer I didn't pirate any games if it meant I didn't purchase any new games?

Piracy with the chance of purchasing a good enough game > never playing/buying the game at all. THAT is my justification for piracy.

And my justification for murder? Well, he had a copy of CoD4 in his hand 😛

edit: and I didn't quote all that because the posts were becoming difficult to read.

 

[jjones]

Sorry, but piracy has nothing to do with what ails the PC gaming market.

I see 40k + estimated monthly pirated downloads of UT3 in one of the articles but do you think people are playing that shitty game? lol, Epic could only wish, even if it did mean that pirated copies were the majority being played.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: jjones
Sorry, but piracy has nothing to do with what ails the PC gaming market.

I see 40k + estimated monthly pirated downloads of UT3 in one of the articles but do you think people are playing that shitty game? lol, Epic could only wish, even if it did mean that pirated copies were the majority being played.

that statement is pretty 'sure' ... do you have anything to back it up?
😕

well, UT3 DOES have a SP campaign 😛
--and i hear that UT3 is currently doing better, maybe it IS the pirates
:Q

doubt it

 

[TBSN]

All I can think of is how awesome STEAM is...

How many illegitimate copies of HL2 are floating around?

Digital Distribution through a client (like STEAM) is the way to go I think.....

 

[n7]

Nvm :roll:

 

[Canai]

:thumbsdown:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: n7

Originally posted by: Mandin62
People who pirate games do not buy. Saying devs need to make better games and that then and only then will you be willing to shell out 50 for it is a lie and all of you know it. T

Absolute BS.

That may be your case, but it's not for everyone.

Originally posted by: apoppin
--and i hear that UT3 is currently doing better, maybe it IS the pirates
:Q

doubt it

It's not doing better.
It's doing horribly...no one playing at all, which is very frustrating to a big UT fan.

This thread is interesting, but there's a lot of unfounded opinions being thrown around.

I'll give an example.

EDITED


And then the day UT3 finally hit stores here in Canada, i grabbed the Collector's Edition for $70 IIRC (which is a waste of the extra money btw) simply because i wanted to spend the extra money to support them [Epic].

Of course, i am wrecking the industry by doing this though, right :roll:

Any numbers the industry pulls outta their ass they can shove back up it.

Every single friend & gamer i know personally not only buys lots of games, but pirates lots as well.

But the key thing is that they don't pirate games they'd be buying.

If there was no such thing as piracy, they simply wouldn't be buying those games they pirate.

Now i'm not saying everyone is like this, but i'd say the majority are.

Blanket blaming piracy is such a load of crap it pisses me off to no end, since it's simply NOT TRUE!

did you miss the i doubt it part? 😛

again you are *fixing* on the "fluff" ... look back at what you cut out and let's leave it there

in answer to jjones' <<"Sorry, but piracy has nothing to do with what ails the PC gaming market.">> i replied,

that statement is pretty 'sure' ... do you have anything to back it up?

OK? the rest was a throwaway speculation that i thought was pretty obvious from the preceding context of my posts .. but i realize that no one bothers with the context.

--try again ... and aim for the target ,,, not at my fluff that apparently distracts you


well, UT3 DOES have a SP campaign ... true, but is is neither here nor there - a throw-away 'comment' ... i will try to limit them - in future - IF you guys stop setting up STRAWMAN arguments of what i did not say