Is the *impact* of Piracy on PC Gaming Overstated?

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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While discussions of piracy are welcomed here, openly admitting to software piracy is not permitted. Please cease doing so, or it will result in the offending members posting privileges being suspended. - PC Gaming Moderator- DAPUNISHER

  • well, i promised .. surprised me .. and it's a little long :p

    http://www.quartertothree.com/...showthread.php?t=42663
    ^This is the original "Titan Quest" Dev post that started the original discussion in another thread here but this one is devoted to the claim of 90% piracy rate .. you are invited to find links and comment^

    Almost too much information is available .. evidently there are several ways to track stolen games .. SecureRom's most restrictive DRM actually "phones home" to report stolen SW
    :Q

    first of all, all the Devs say it is huge and impacts the reason they are moving to consoles:

    http://www.joystiq.com/2006/08...ling-pc-gaming-market/

    at a QuakeCon Q&A, id Software co-owner Kevin Cloud put some blame on why developers are shying away from the PC market and turning to the slightly less-hackable console market.

    Cloud is quoted as saying:

    "Piracy is hard. It's really -- from my opinion, destroying the PC market. ... when you look out there at the number of games that are getting pirated, it is just devastating. It's the primary reason retailers are moving to the console. It's something that's on every PC developer's mind -- on how to reduce [piracy]. Because, if you like the PC, you hate to see it fall lower and lower down."

    Todd Hollenshead, CEO of id, expressed similar concerns:

    "... the problem that this industry faces above all else is the piracy. There is about seventy-percent of the landmass of the world where you can't sell games in a legitimate market, because pirates will beat you to the shelves with your own game. ... you may literally have more games being played illegitimately than being played legitimately. So when you're giving up that much market to people who aren't paying for the games, or who are buying the games in ways in which the developers aren't getting paid for it, it creates a big challenge. Not only for the developers and publishers. But also for retailers, because they have to make bets when they buy their game inventory."


    http://fourzerotwo.blogspot.co...s-servers-servers.html

    On another PC related note, we pulled some disturbing numbers this past week about the amount of PC players currently playing Multiplayer (which was fantastic). What wasn't fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).

    Not sure if I can share the exact numbers or percentage of PC players with you, but I'll check and see; if I can I'll update with them. As the amount of people who pirate PC games is astounding. It blows me away at the amount of people willing to steal games (or anything) simply because it's not physical or it's on the safety of the internet to do

    more how they track it:
    http://www.next-gen.biz/index....=view&id=9077&Itemid=2
    The ESA says it based its estimates on local surveys of market conditions and other factors, including public and proprietary data on sales and market share and information from industry enforcement programs






    This actually talks about "numbers" and it is really interesting .. Reflexive does their own DRM and tracks the results. They found that stopping piracy did not actually increase sales much:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-b..._index.php?story=17350
    [very excerpted]

    February 12, 2008

    Casual Games and Piracy: The Truth

    Casual Games and Piracy: The Truth [Just how rampant is piracy in PC casual gaming? In a startling instalment of his regular Gamasutra column, Reflexive's director of marketing Russell Carroll (Wik, Ricochet) reveals the 92% piracy rate for one of his company's games, and what worked (and didn't work) when they tried to fix it.]

    ?It looks like around 92% of the people playing the full version of [the pictured] Ricochet Infinity pirated it.? It?s moments like those that make people in the industry stop dead in their tracks. 92% is a huge number and though we were only measuring people who had gotten the game from Reflexive and gone online with it, it seemed improbable that those who acquired the game elsewhere or didn?t go online were any more likely to have purchased it. As we sat and pondered the financial implications of such piracy, it was hard to get past the magnitude of the number itself: 92%. ...

    ... in many cases improving the Digital Rights Management (DRM) system to be more secure can be more effective as it renders a large number of those links obsolete. This is tricky to be sure, because improving the security must be done without making the DRM so onerous that it keeps honest customers from purchasing games.

    Reflexive, where I work, is in a peculiar position in this regard. Whereas most of the casual games industry licenses their DRM from a vendor, Reflexive has its own in-house DRM. Over the years it has undergone many improvements, including several changes made specifically to combat piracy.

    With that background, my penchant for actual numbers, and a lot of help from Brian Fisher, Reflexive?s king of number crunching logic, let?s tackle the question of the 92% piracy rate on Ricochet Infinity. Could we realistically assume that stopping piracy would have caused 12 times more sales?

    Beating the DRM

    Pirates beat DRMs through Exploits, KeyGens and Cracks. Each of these approaches is distinct, and requires differing amounts of effort. A brief description of each, in order of least to most effort involved to make them work, can be found below.

    [excerpted descriptions removed]


    Fixing the DRM
    Over the last 2 years, Reflexive has made a number of security updates to its DRM that were designed to make one or more of the existing DRM workarounds obsolete and thereby turn the people pirating games into purchasing customers. While the updates haven?t made the system unbreakable, they have made it so all known or search-engine-findable piracy tools ceased to function.

    Fixing The Holes - The Results

    Below are the results of Reflexive.com sales and downloads immediately following each update:

    Fix 1 ? Existing Exploits & Keygens made obsolete ? Sales up 70%, Downloads down 33%

    Fix 2 ? Existing Keygens made obsolete ? Sales down slightly, Downloads flat

    Fix 3 ? Existing Cracks made obsolete ? Sales flat, Downloads flat

    Fix 4 ? Keygens made game-specific ? Sales up 13%, Downloads down 16% (note: fix made after the release of Ricochet Infinity)

    From the results above, it seems clear that eliminating piracy through a stronger DRM can result in significantly increased sales ? but sometimes it can have no benefit at all. So what does that mean for the question about whether a pirated copy means a lost sale? The decreases in downloads may provide a clue to that

    As we believe that we are decreasing the number of pirates downloading the game with our DRM fixes, combining the increased sales number together with the decreased downloads, we find 1 additional sale for every 1,000 less pirated downloads. Put another way, for every 1,000 pirated copies we eliminated, we created 1 additional sale.

    Though many of the pirates may be simply shifting to another source of games for their illegal activities, the number is nonetheless striking and poignant. The sales to download ratio found on Reflexive implies that a pirated copy is more similar to the loss of a download (a poorly converting one!) than the loss of a sale.

    Though that doesn?t make a 92% piracy rate of one of our banner products any less distressing, knowing that eliminating 50,000 pirated copies might only produce 50 additional legal copies does help put things in perspective. ...

    The question most of the portals ask themselves isn?t whether or not to fight piracy, but what is the best way to fight it.

    Casual games is an industry still in its adolescence, and certainly as it matures, more and more lessons will be learned about what the best approach is to fighting piracy, and what the realistic returns are of doing so.


    interesting read:

    Secure PC gaming could bring prices down - Taylor


    *details* of the 'how' here:

    http://thegamingsource.blogspo...c-gaming-industry.html

    For instance, Call of Duty 4 is being downloaded by 16,385 people from Miniova at the time of publication. The game sold 383K copies in 2007 according toNDP reports. If one estimates that it would take 2-3 days to download a DVD-copy of a game on average (average taken from some of the top seeded games), that would equate to 164K to 246K downloads a month. At that rate, more people have downloaded the game illegally than have purchased it in stores.

    Using the same formula, Crysis, which is being downloaded by 6806 people, would be downloaded 68K to 102K a month, more than the game sold in its first month of release.

    Unreal Tournament III is being downloaded by 3060 pirates, which would equate to 31K to 46K downloads a month, easily beating the 34K that the game sold in its first couple weeks of release.

    Of course these numbers are only counting one torrent site.

    they track it :p

    More

    http://www.canada.com/topics/t...a-40099252278d&k=25113

    While PC game developers are losing money to piracy, companies like Nintendo are raking in enormous profits from the booming console market.

    Top games like Super Mario Galaxy and Halo 3 would have been dubbed disappointments to company execs if they had sold less than a million copies in their first month. According to the NPD's year-end analysis only one PC game, the World of Warcraft expansion "The Burning Crusade" sold more than a million copies all year!

    Call of Duty 4, one of the best-selling games of the year racked up almost 7 million sales accross all platforms, with only 383K of that figure coming from PC.

    So what are PC developers to do?

    Many are either switching, or porting their games to console. According to ShackNews, Crytek announced today that they will be showing off CryENGINE 2, the technology that powered Crysis, on the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 at this year's GDC, which could signal that the developer is looking to make money from those platforms as well.

    Some game publishers like Valve are looking at the situation as an opportunity for digital distribution to become a bigger factor in the PC game market, through services like Steam. Steam allows developers to sell their game through the Steam store and track game sales. According to NextGen.biz, Valve announced today that they have created a toolset so game developers can easily port their games onto the Steam platform. Game developers should be excited because the service has been very effective in an effort to crack down on video game pirates.

    there you go :)

    i edited the title to reflect the discussion better
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: GundamSonicZeroX
...SecureRom's most restrictive DRM actually "phones home" to report stolen SW
:Q

So that's what the spyware is for!

You found the only thing i don't have a link for :p
- i got this from one of my sources ... evidently they can track pirated games very accurately

HOWEVER, and this is a big one .. if 90 percent of this "90% pirated figure" is from Asia and kids too poor to buy the game, it won't affect sales very much

That is the controversial report that Reflexive found [and they can track accurately with their own DRM] - for every 1,000 D/Ls they stopped, they gained a SINGLE sale!
:Q

But that is disputed by ONLINE games that are being monitored that have cracks and illegal keys .. so the IMPACT of piracy may be overstated a bit .. still to have 90% of your game stolen has got to be discouraging.

You cannot say the pirates are "sampling" the games, either. The Wii is having runaway sales without any "free samples" :p



 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
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Is it that 90% of all the games are pirated at some point or is it 90% of all games owned (installed on people's PCs) by people are pirated? I'm a little confused by this. I find the latter hard to believe at least here in the USA.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: Skott
Is it that 90% of all the games are pirated at some point or is it 90% of all games owned (installed on people's PCs) by people are pirated? I'm a little confused by this. I find the latter hard to believe at least here in the USA.

According to them - the devs - 90% of all PC games WORLDWIDE are pirated - compared to how many are legally purchased
i.e. for every 1 game sold legally, 9 games are d/l'ed
--not the USA

The question is - if 100% of pirating was *stopped* - would PC gaming sales go up by 9 times ?

[very doubtful, imo]

There is an impact, clearly ... and they track the illegal D/Ls ... even leaving certain 'trackers' in the game to tell them if it is a pirated copy; and of course online tracking of MMOs.
 

Krakn3Dfx

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2000
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Originally posted by: kyubi
total bs

A well thought out response to something you disagree with will generally consist of more than 7 letters and a space.

Thanks for that tho.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: Krakn3Dfx
Originally posted by: kyubi
total bs

A well thought out response to something you disagree with will generally consist of more than 7 letters and a space.

Thanks for that tho.

well, i actually presented *two* sides .. the devs that say Piracy KILLS PC gaming and the other Studio that says. "sure they pirate it, but the IMPACT on sales is minimal since they would NEVER actually BUY it ANYWAY"

So that begs the question, "what" is BS ..?

Clearly the "7 letters and a space" response is BS
:thumbsdown:

:roll:
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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alienbabeltech.com
it IS worldwide news .. how do you think i found it :p
:roll:
.... besides from my friends, that is?
.. google!

i didn't make any of this shit up and i linked carefully to everything i asserted.
[all but 1 ... i have no "proof" that Level5 SecureCrap actually phones home].

EDIT: OK, i changed the topic's title just for you :p
- in that it now reflects the discussion better .. less Dev BS implied and more to the point of want we want to discuss [i think]

thanks

rose.gif
 

ObiDon

Diamond Member
May 8, 2000
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i'm not sure that reflexive's numbers could be considered representative of the industry of a whole.

i, personally, don't feel that casual games (especially downloads) are worth $20. they're really only worth a few hours of playtime. for the same amount of money, one could purchase GTR-2, lego star wars, scarface, titan quest... my point being that these games are much more complex and probably weren't whipped up in a couple of weeks (probably 20MB worth of code) by someone. sure, they're different target markets but i happen to fall into both ;)

i have bought a couple of retail packaged casual games. one was tradewinds legends (which came with an expansion that the download doesn't include) and the other was insaniquarium. i don't rememeber how much i paid for tradewinds but insaniquarium was only $10 in a jewelcase. i think that's a fair price, but for $20 i most likely would have been disappointed. to me, if they were regularly priced at $10 that would pretty much be a guaranteed sale for any game i was slightly interested. $15 would put me on the fence.

i'm not trying to justify or defend the choice of others to pirate casual games. i'm just explaining why more of my money doesn't go towards that category of gaming :)
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: ObiDon
i'm not sure that reflexive's numbers could be considered representative of the industry of a whole.

i, personally, don't feel that casual games (especially downloads) are worth $20. they're really only worth a few hours of playtime. for the same amount of money, one could purchase GTR-2, lego star wars, scarface, titan quest... my point being that these games are much more complex and probably weren't whipped up in a couple of weeks (probably 20MB worth of code) by someone. sure, they're different target markets but i happen to fall into both ;)

i have bought a couple of retail packaged casual games. one was tradewinds legends (which came with an expansion that the download doesn't include) and the other was insaniquarium. i don't rememeber how much i paid for tradewinds but insaniquarium was only $10 in a jewelcase. i think that's a fair price, but for $20 i most likely would have been disappointed. to me, if they were regularly priced at $10 that would pretty much be a guaranteed sale for any game i was slightly interested. $15 would put me on the fence.

i'm not trying to justify or defend the choice of others to pirate casual games. i'm just explaining why more of my money doesn't go towards that category of gaming :)

from my reading, what you have just said is what the REST of the PC gaming say ... that Reflexive's games are NOT representative.

i do not play these types of games ... but for me, i am definitely a bargain-bin hunter .... i will try many games for $10-20 that i won't give a 2nd look to at $50. Or, like MotB, i waited till it was both $10 AND patched ... the choice was clear - buggy at release for $30; wait 6 months and buy it fully patched for $10 ... is that even a choice ... it is LOGIC .. i just need to remind myself i Do Not *need* a brand new game ... and i am usually disappointed by paying full price on Day 1 of release ... with few exceptions.
 

Piuc2020

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
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I think PC games piracy is overstated and personally, I don't think piracy is what is hurting the PC games industry the most.

I think we should approach this subject from these perspectives:

What percentage of lost sales can be attributed to piracy?
Does DRM stop piracy? If so, how many of the foiled pirates become paying customers?
Is piracy ultimately the reason why PC gaming is "supposedly" doing bad?

While I agree DRM is a consequence of people pirating and not the other way around (duh) I don't think DRM does anything to stop a pirate... I mean, most games are cracked in under a week (if not a day) so for most people, if they want to download an illegal game, they can do so and experience little to no issues doing so. What happens to the paying customers? They have to deal with CD checks, activation schemes and virtual drive blacklisting. If DRM was really a sales-boosting, piracy-defeating mechanism, why is it that games like Sins of A Solar Empire top the charts without ANY DRM (other than inputting a serial number as a one time deal to get updates) and heavily marketed games with DRM and an incentive to be bought original (online play) like UT3 sell so bad?

Can someone really answer that? If anything it proves good games sell regardless of their protection which means the difficulty (or lack thereof) of pirating is not an incentive to do it nor a temptation.

This same number crunching could be said about the DS, just take a look at all the rom sites and their download counters (especially for popular games), piracy on the DS is pathetically easy, not only can you carry hundreds of games in a single cart but they are very easy to come by and download and they have no limitations (they can be played online) yet the DS sells units and sells software like crazy. If anything I would think the piracy index (if based on downloaded copies) is much bigger relatively to the PC yet no one is complaining about the DS failing.

Now, I am not defending piracy, I do think there are a lot of negative aspects about it, I just think it should stop being a scapegoat for developers and consumers alike for the state of the industry or for the financial flop of certain titles or development studios, it may be something to worry about but the way I see it, it's definitely down on the list of preoccupations and priorities for developers and publishers out there.
 

Build it Myself

Senior member
Oct 24, 2007
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I think that if you were able to stop piracy it wouldn't help the game sales that much...

Case/Point: I was in China and bought some 10 games or so for 5yuan each...had they been retail priced, I would've never looked at them. For 5yuan I purchased them just to see if they were worth it...I've not made it through more than 10 minutes of a single one of them.

Had I seen them in a store for sale "legally" I would've just walked by.

A lot of people seem to have this mentality...some things just arn't worth paying for. On the other hand if there's a game out that I think it good, I don't have to think twice about shelling out $50 for it; I think it's a matter of preference...

All in all maybe they need to look at it as 90% of games today are crap...? :confused:
 

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
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This being mostly an exercise in self-justification for you folks, you're only going to reach one conclusion.
 

n7

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2004
21,303
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Absolutely it's overstated.

I can't really say more here, but very simply put, i buy software & games i feel are worth it.

For those games, I buy right around release too, which means at least $50-60+, not cheap at all.

 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: s44
This being mostly an exercise in self-justification for you folks, you're only going to reach one conclusion.
what is that?
:confused:

Your's is a common conclusion among people who haven't bothered to read the thread or even the first post

The "you folks" here are presenting *2* different PoVs :p
-and it is open for discussion

so far, most of can agree that PC gaming piracy IS rampant ... now, how MUCH does it actually 'impact' PC gaming sales?

Originally posted by: Kur
Remove DRM
Lower costs
Make better games
Eliminate piracy thru "secure gaming"

You don't see that last one coming, do you?
:roll:
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,425
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The most interesting point I find is the statistic that stopping 1,000 copies from being pirated only generates 1 additional sale. Gives validity to the point that most people would not buy a game anyway. Which brings up the following question: What's wrong with PC gaming, and the PC game experience, today?

Piracy is not the culprit for that problem.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
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I point to SD's method of anti piracy.

-No copy protection for CD's and digital downloads. No "no cd" cracks required. No DRM issues of ANY kind because there is no DRM.
-Patching is done through a update manager that requires you to register your games serial number to download and install patches. The manager is only need to update, and once you register you can download the full & up to date game for free to reinstall or backup onto a CD as many times as you want. Piracy protection AND customer service all in one.
-Rapid release of patches and continued support for the game through balancing and content updates. (Sins of a solar empire had a "content" update ready about a day before the game was released, and no it wasn't stuff they left out on purpose). In 2 weeks they released a second patch addressing some of the biggest issues to be found after release, a 3rd patch is due to be released in the coming week (a bit over a month after release) that will address the rest.
-Good pricing, Sins shipped at $39 Canadian compared to $59 for crysis on release.
-They release top notch games.
-Customers first, anti piracy second.


The latest game of IronClad published by Stardock uses this model, Sins of a Solar Empire sold 100,000 games in the first 2 weeks, and this does not include digital download (legit) figures. All justification for piracy is removed and people are much more willing to buy the game. Several people who have pirated the game with no intention to buy it have come onto the Sins forums to state that they had pirated the game but where guilted into buying it after they realized SD's copy protection policy. I point to this as the way of the future, with the backlash against DRM building we will see companies like SD growing while the ones clinging to DRM that targets customers disappear.

As a consumer you speak with your wallet, say no thanks to crappy DRM.
 

Build it Myself

Senior member
Oct 24, 2007
333
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Originally posted by: jjones
The most interesting point I find is the statistic that stopping 1,000 copies from being pirated only generates 1 additional sale. Gives validity to the point that most people would not buy a game anyway. Which brings up the following question: What's wrong with PC gaming, and the PC game experience, today?

Piracy is not the culprit for that problem.

LOL, see my post...Games are crap :(

As to the apoppin, same answer, why are they being pirated? Because we wouldn't want to actually pay for them because they are bad.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
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Originally posted by: jjones
The most interesting point I find is the statistic that stopping 1,000 copies from being pirated only generates 1 additional sale. Gives validity to the point that most people would not buy a game anyway. Which brings up the following question: What's wrong with PC gaming, and the PC game experience, today?

Piracy is not the culprit for that problem.

Hang on a sec :p

those numbers are for casual games - Reflexive -
--one very small sub-set of PC gaming ;)

--
Originally posted by: Build it Myself
Originally posted by: jjones
The most interesting point I find is the statistic that stopping 1,000 copies from being pirated only generates 1 additional sale. Gives validity to the point that most people would not buy a game anyway. Which brings up the following question: What's wrong with PC gaming, and the PC game experience, today?

Piracy is not the culprit for that problem.

LOL, see my post...Games are crap :(

As to the apoppin, same answer, why are they being pirated? Because we wouldn't want to actually pay for them because they are bad.

then don't steal shit .. simple really .. BUY the good games
-let the bad devs got out of business without any 'help' from pirating the garbage that they produce

there is NO JUSTIFICATION for pirating [period]
- or else MURDER can ALSO be justified - because they "deserved it" ?
that is r-i-d-c-u-l-o-u-s selfish lack of reasoning

------------
ZzZGuy is right .. they are going to SECURE gaming because of Pirates ,,, they WILL fix it and you SUCKERs - leeches, really for the free ride will finally get get bumped off .. and the rest of us may get FINALLY some solid benefits from PC gaming
-Pirates can go to hell :|
 

Build it Myself

Senior member
Oct 24, 2007
333
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then don't steal shit .. simple really .. BUY the good games
-let the bad devs got out of business without any 'help' from pirating the garbage that they produce

there is NO JUSTIFICATION for pirating [period]
- or else MURDER can ALSO be justified - because they "deserved it" ?
that is r-i-d-c-u-l-o-u-s selfish lack of reasoning

------------
ZzZGuy is right .. they are going to SECURE gaming because of Pirates ,,, they WILL fix it and you SUCKERs - leeches, really for the free ride will finally get get bumped off .. and the rest of us may get FINALLY some solid benefits from PC gaming
-Pirates can go to hell :|
[/quote]

you're telling me you'd spend $30 of your earned money on this? http://pc.ign.com/articles/854/854624p1.html it scored a...duh duh duh...4 out of 10. I wouldn't buy this for $30, but for maybe $1 I would pick it up just to see how bad it really was...I wouldn't pay retail just to confirm what the reviews said, who would?
 

PhatoseAlpha

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2005
2,131
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Fine, then don't pay it. That's an economic choice. You get to keep your $30, but you don't get to play the game. That's the economics of it.