Is the *impact* of Piracy on PC Gaming Overstated?

[skace]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Anybody who hasn't purchased every PC title released is a pirate? That's quite a jump.

That is not what I said. I said that there are a lot of people, in this thread and ones like it, who are claiming "the good games just aren't there so I have to pirate to be sure" which is complete BS when you look at the fact that PC gaming has had some of it's strongest years title wise.

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Anybody who hasn't purchased every PC title released is a pirate? That's quite a jump.

That is not what I said. I said that there are a lot of people, in this thread and ones like it, who are claiming "the good games just aren't there so I have to pirate to be sure" which is complete BS when you look at the fact that PC gaming has had some of it's strongest years title wise.

Well, in my case at least, games like Orange Box, Crysis, GoW, Stalker, DiRT, the Witcher, all are worth buying, and I have bought them. It's the myriad of random games that get pirated to 'try them out'

Should I be content buying ONLY the AAA titles?

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Anybody who hasn't purchased every PC title released is a pirate? That's quite a jump.

That is not what I said. I said that there are a lot of people, in this thread and ones like it, who are claiming "the good games just aren't there so I have to pirate to be sure" which is complete BS when you look at the fact that PC gaming has had some of it's strongest years title wise.

Well, in my case at least, games like Orange Box, Crysis, GoW, Stalker, DiRT, the Witcher, all are worth buying, and I have bought them. It's the myriad of random games that get pirated to 'try them out'

Should I be content buying ONLY the AAA titles?

So it's ok to steal games as long as they are not AAA? I don't really undertsand that reasoning.

KT

 

[Canai]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Anybody who hasn't purchased every PC title released is a pirate? That's quite a jump.

That is not what I said. I said that there are a lot of people, in this thread and ones like it, who are claiming "the good games just aren't there so I have to pirate to be sure" which is complete BS when you look at the fact that PC gaming has had some of it's strongest years title wise.

Well, in my case at least, games like Orange Box, Crysis, GoW, Stalker, DiRT, the Witcher, all are worth buying, and I have bought them. It's the myriad of random games that get pirated to 'try them out'

Should I be content buying ONLY the AAA titles?

So it's ok to steal games as long as they are not AAA? I don't really undertsand that reasoning.

KT

No, what I mean is the 'good games' get bought, and the 'bad games' get tested to see if there's any value to them at all. Most of the non AAA games don't have demos, so that leaves you with the options to either buy the game and hope it's good, or to download it and try it out. Of course, this bites me in the ass quite often, The Witcher and Bioshock come to mind as games I would rather not have purchased, but oh well.

I think piracy rates would drop if more games took the Dreamfall approach... let people down the whole game, but only have part of it unlocked, and require internet registration to unlock the rest. It gives users a good preview of the game, with an option to securely unlock the rest if they choose to purchase it.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: Canai

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Anybody who hasn't purchased every PC title released is a pirate? That's quite a jump.

That is not what I said. I said that there are a lot of people, in this thread and ones like it, who are claiming "the good games just aren't there so I have to pirate to be sure" which is complete BS when you look at the fact that PC gaming has had some of it's strongest years title wise.

Well, in my case at least, games like Orange Box, Crysis, GoW, Stalker, DiRT, the Witcher, all are worth buying, and I have bought them. It's the myriad of random games that get pirated to 'try them out'

Should I be content buying ONLY the AAA titles?

So it's ok to steal games as long as they are not AAA? I don't really undertsand that reasoning.

KT

No, what I mean is the 'good games' get bought, and the 'bad games' get tested to see if there's any value to them at all. Most of the non AAA games don't have demos, so that leaves you with the options to either buy the game and hope it's good, or to download it and try it out. Of course, this bites me in the ass quite often, The Witcher and Bioshock come to mind as games I would rather not have purchased, but oh well.

I think piracy rates would drop if more games took the Dreamfall approach... let people down the whole game, but only have part of it unlocked, and require internet registration to unlock the rest. It gives users a good preview of the game, with an option to securely unlock the rest if they choose to purchase it.

I agree there should be a mechanism in place for people to have a preview of the game, whether it just be a demo or the more in-depth Dreamfall approach. As for the releases without those things available, well that's what review sites and places like the gaming forums here on AT are for. Once you find those with similar likes and dislikes as you, it becomes quite easy to make an informed decision on what you should or should not purchse. It works for me anyway.

KT

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Larries
On tomshardware, there is a funny interview on Unreal creator that, the problem with PC gaming is that PC are simply not good for games because the performance difference between the top end PC and the low end PC is too big....

This is the true problem of current PC gaming. It's the platform itself, and the way devs are developing for that platform. Why do you think they formed that new association to address this very issue? Some are finally realizing where the problem lies. Piracy has little to do with it.

Sure there's lots of good releases this year, but I'm not upgrading to play them. Gaming requirements have far exceeded any other applications I have on my PC, and I just can't justify it any more. And this doesn't even address the situation with laptops and the number of people in the casual gaming demographic that probably have laptops as their primary PC.

If you're a casual gamer, why struggle to play a game on PC when you can just get a console and play it without worrying about upgrades or compatibility.

The platform/dev issues need to be fixed or PC gaming will never recover, even if no one in the world ever pirated a PC game again.

But the problem is not the platform itself but the perspective of people, people don't understand that you don't need max graphics to enjoy a game, I know many people who run Crysis in a 8500GT and are pretty satisfied about it (on a 8500GT the game runs on medium at 800x600, 25ish FPS). From my experience and my personal testing with an Xbox360 controller on Windows, Bioshock can be replicated to the Xbox360 experience to the minimum detail with only an E4500 and a 8600GTS for $100 (less with rebate) which plays the game comfortably at 1280x1024 (actually better than 360) and maximum settings.

Game requirements aren't huge, $500-$1000 PCs are capable of playing the latest games, just not at the maximum settings, if you keep your monitor to 1280x1024 (a fair resolution to compare to the 360 given it's 720p limit) a 2.2GHz Core 2 Duo and a $130 graphic card like the 8800GS will get you by just great and will even end up beating the 360 in most cases. The problem is mainly with consumers making uninformed decisions and IGP being as lousy as they are.

Face it, consoles are much simple and more reliable, perhaps, but nowadays they are HARDLY cheaper, the markup on games and accesories, online fees and the cost of HDTVs make consoles a fairly equal platform to the PC in terms of price but people are still not aware of this since they avoid seeing the big picture and just compare prices and even then they are not comparing things fairly (like comparing prices for things that produce similar 360 graphics like an E4500 and a 8800GS, they instead compare a QX9650 and Tri-SLI 8800 Ultras :roll🙂

But I'm WAAAAAAAY off-topic, I think some valid points have been made in this thread but it's become a bit too hard to keep track of everything and some people need to open their minds a little bit. I'm just going to say this, piracy is NOT the reason why the PC Games industry is apparently "failing", far from it. A perfect DRM system would not automatically revive the industry, not only because perfect DRM is impossible but also because piracy is not the problem to begin with.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
I've never pirated a game and never intend to. If something looks like crap, well then I don't buy it and hope, eventually, the developers will get the message and stop making the crap.

There are always times where I get sucked in to buying a crappy game **cough** Hellgate **cough**, but for the most part it is pretty easy to see which games are worth my money and which are not and I don't need to steal a copy of the game to figure it out.

As for the OP does that mean that all of these games that have sold over a million copies actually have over 9 million people playing them? In the end I favour a Steam-like delivery/management/DRM system which I know is not bulletproof, but is favourable over any of the possible alternatives in my opinion.

KT

Edit: poppin, why did you change your avatar? It's very disorienting.

Me - the OP?
i don't know .. it is a *claim* ... this IS the discussion😉

I *liked* Hellgate, having played it since the Beta ... i was totally glad to drop $40 on it [on sale on Day 1] and i played it for over 200 hours with several characters ... and through twice - the 2nd time i*almost* finished it on Nightmare [it is still a 'project']; the MP was *crap* and buggy, but the SP was what i like anyway .. and DX10 was patched to run and look really good - fully maxed on my rig.

... i had the old avatar over for 8 years ...
--this one fits even better .. unfortunately there are no "Jackals" 😛

... and if truth be know, i just dropped out of the pack .. i wanted a change of den

 

[apoppin]

This blew my mind.

Evidently the company that makes Starforce provided a working URL to a list of pirated GalCiv II torrents since they didn't use any copy protection!!!!
-how DIRTY is that?

http://forums.galciv2.com/106741

Digg is reporting that a website is implying that we want Galactic Civilizations II to be pirated. Absolutely not! Of course we DO NOT want our game to be pirated. We're a small company, every lost sale hurts us.

This got started because sales reports on Galactic Civilizations II have been much higher than anticipated. We've now outsold the first Galactic Civilizations in North America in the first 10 days. Last week we were apparently the #1 PC game at Walmart.

Naturally, some peple have taken the conclusion that because we don't have copy protection on our game, that we invite piracy. That is not the case, we simply think there are other ways to stop piracy than CD checks, strict DRM, etc.

What we do is provide a serial # that users can choose to enter when they install and use that unique serial # to download free and frequent updates.

Our license allows you to install the game onto as many machines that you own that you want as long as only one copy is being used at once.

How many sales are lost because people want to have a game on their laptop and desktop and don't want to drag CDs around so choose not to buy the game?

Our company also makes utility software. We've been around a long time -- 14 years now. Our software gets pirated. We don't like it but piracy is a fact of life. And not every pirated copy means a lost sale.

The question isn't about eliminating piracy, it's about increasing sales. It's about trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it.

Our primary weapon to fight piracy is through rewarding customers through convenient, frequent, free updates.

If you make it easy for users to buy and make full use of your product or service legitimately then we believe that you'll gain more users from that convenience than you'll lose from piracy.

We realize that some people or companies might feel threatened at any evidence that implies that draconian DRM schemes or CD copy protection may not make that big of a difference in sales.

For example, we were quite disturbed to discover that the company that makes Starforce provided a working URL to a list of pirated GalCiv II torrents. I'm not sure whether what they did was illegal or not, but it's troubling nevertheless and was totally unnecessary.

All software is pirated, there's no way around it. We've been making software for over 10 years. We don't like our software being pirated. Like I said, every lost sales has an impact on us. But there are other ways to reduce it than through draconian copy protection systems.

Incidentally, the site that Starforce's forum admin linked to "prove" how much our software was being pirated we visited, followed the instructions on the site to get our game removed and the links were removed within a couple of hours. We'll continue to follow-up with them.

Update: Starforce has removed the URL to the illegal files.

http://forums.galciv2.com/107193

Copy protection follow-up
Sales, copy protection, and commentary
By Frogboy Posted March 13, 2006 22:21:32External Link
The auto-track back system our IT guys developed certainly got a work out over the weekend with the copy protection news item.

We received email from StarForce today apologizing for the incident. We appreciated them taking down the link. It also gave us the opportunity to request the various meta-torrent sites to remove links to illegal torrents.

In every case, the torrent list site in question responded quickly to our request. One might make the argument that a simple polite email to a meta-torrent search site is as effective as copy protection.

There is probably some irony that this whole thing occurred just before last week's EBGames.com top selling games list got posted on their site. They list Galactic Civilizations II as the top telling PC title and the #2 overall (all platforms). And that was before this incident.

I don't want us to come out like we're on some sort of anti-copy protection crusade. We just don't think CD copy protection is an effective means to increase sales.

Here's the basic question that every publisher/gamer/developer could ask: By requiring the CD to be in the drive to play a game, even assuming that protection unbreakable, do you increase your sales?

I ask that because many gamers who are on the fence on a given title won't purchase a game if it requires them to treat their CD like a dongle key. Why? Because let's face it, we lose our CDs eventually. Or we damage them. And so what happens is that people who are on the fence on a given title simply choose not to buy the game.

By not having any CD copy protection, people who are on the fence about our game can see that it's only $40 and once it's installed on their machines (plural) they don't have to fuss with the CD anymore. And we do have a type of copy protection -- free updates for customers. Tomorrow we'll be posting the v1.1 feature list based on your suggestions.

So which method gains the most sales? There's no definitive answer for that. I think a given game's demographics have a lot to do with piracy rates in the first place.

Meanwhile, Gamespot followed-up the issue. I spoke to them briefly today on the issue. You can see that in the link below.

I think the most effective way of increasing sales is probably to make games people want to buy. But I'm an engineer, not a marketer so what do I know?

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: Canai
let's just say that I have saved myself a lot of money that would have been wasted on horrid games.

QFT

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

[/quote]

Doesn't always work. This forum has several people with the same tastes as me, and it collectively LOVES "The Witcher" - I can't stand the damn game! If I'd have bought it sight-unseen without trying it first (and there was no demo when it was released), I'd have pissed away $50-60.

 

[StrangerGuy]

Slightly OT:

What is worse than piracy?

Making things people don't even want to pirate.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Canai
let's just say that I have saved myself a lot of money that would have been wasted on horrid games.

QFT

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

Doesn't always work. This forum has several people with the same tastes as me, and it collectively LOVES "The Witcher" - I can't stand the damn game! If I'd have bought it sight-unseen without trying it first (and there was no demo when it was released), I'd have pissed away $50-60.

[/quote]
not "always" .. and i almost NEVER drop $50 on a new game - i paid $39 for The Witcher, for BioShock, NWN2, Hg:L and many other newly-released games with a 'sale' [usually at Target, Best Buy Or CC withing the first 2 weeks of launch]

Do you like similar story-driven RPGs to the Witcher? If not, ity doesn't matter what others with tastes "similar to yours" think.

i *bet* - if played the full version of the Witcher you might also love it - the demo is just not representative - that is, IF you like this type of RPG. If not, don't even look at the reviews.


=========

What is worse than piracy?

Making things people don't even want to pirate.

That is just business "survival of the fittest" ... generally, unless you have a HUGE budget to HYPE your awful game - you will [hopfully] go out of business. That is a "win" for gamers.
Piracy is just "stealing"

 

[Stoneburner]

why not lower prices? At some point the benefit of just buying a game and immediately playing is better than waiting a while for a download. And a full copy usually means less complications. I rarely buy a game until it hits around $30 unless it's a game i've been loooking forward to like Crysis.

 

[Maximilian]

But isnt pirating games difficult?? Dont people hate things that are difficult??

You download the thing and it comes either all zipped up in about 200 files or you get one massive file with a crazy extention youve never heard of .stup1d or some crap like that. For some people thats it, end of the line for them as theyre stuck and dont know what to do. Anyways if you get past that stage when you try and install it it will ask for a key.... oops wheres my key, i dont have one i pirated it, crap, so when you finally find a key (maybe your download came with one) you install it but you cant play on multiplayer because your key came from a generator or has been used by 234 people previously... Boo! But before you get there you get the stupid "cd isnt in the drive error" and have to get a workaround for that, so once your done with that finding the correct cd crack for the version you have you can start the game right? Well maybe, maybe the game dosent like vista, maybe it wont start because it dosent like your graphics card, who the hell knows, either way if it starts problem free count yourself lucky.

That can all happen in a different order, some developers now are asking for a key as soon as the game starts rather than during installation, a very clever way to frustrate pirates more.

Well no multiplayer... But you can play the campaign! However according to some developers people are less interested in single player nowadays and simply go straight to multiplayer, so that may be why an increasing number of games focus more on multiplayer and have what is essentially a tacked on at the last minute campaign that pales in comparison to single player games of say 5 years ago. So when you pirate a game your getting a pretty lousy full of hassle experience. Its not like pirating an MP3 which ends up being less hassle than actually buying it.

I dont believe the 90% figure at all. If i have trouble getting some games to start legally, and im technically competant i dont believe 90% of games can be pirated since theres even more crap involved with getting them to work. That is unless they have some sort of number that totally skews the percentage they have... maybe classing free games or demos as pirated? or something daft like that.

EDIT: Of course, im assuming things are still as difficult as when 13 year old me and friend tried to pirate the sims livin it up expansion pack many years ago. I own the game now, because i bought it through frustration 😛

 

[LumbergTech]

my opinion on PC piracy is that they charge too much for games..lower the price of a new game down to 30 dollars...and an old game to 15 bucks..and the sales will go up..of course you dont care becaus youd rather make your revenue off of the people willing to pay 50 and then sit around and cry about piracy instead of offering something a wider market is actually WILLING to purchase unlike most of your current products

 

[schizoid77]

I think some pirates just do it for the kick of getting away with something illegal.

The underlying problem is price. It's all extremely overpriced. And it's only a matter of time before PC games start costing $59.99 just like the new console counterparts.

At that point, I will believe the 90%.

 

[apoppin]

EDIT: Of course, im assuming things are still as difficult as when 13 year old me and friend tried to pirate the sims livin it up expansion pack many years ago. I own the game now, because i bought it through frustration

Actually Soviet, if you want the "easy button" nowadays, i am told that you scam an invite to a special tier of people on a 'forum' associated with a Torrent. After you become trusted, you can ask and will be directed to a private server or to a public one with your correct game's filename. You simply d/l a cracked ISO and burn it to DVD. You modify files and install the cracks [i am not giving any useful how to "details", i hope]. Evidently, you get the Key from your pirate friends and you can also buy them or try your luck with search or a key gen.
:Q

The Galactic Civilizations II dev more than 'hinted' at it. By talking with Starfarce they were able get a list and to email the *search engines* and ask that those links to their own illegally cracked games be taken down and further links be disregarded. And they got 100% cooperation from the search engines. So it takes potential pirates a little 'time' to find this "underground" of piracy and become a part of it.

Pirating is more like a dirty underground 'business' - except it is not little .. and their are "tiers". At the top, the crackers consider themselves "elite" and their actions are "pure" as they reverse engineer and circumvent DRM; they are actually nuts imo and they attempt justify their theft by convoluted means - perhaps to "teach the stupid devs a lesson" or to "show their security is weak" - but often they make money by their dirty deeds - certainly they gain "fame" with their clan and even internationally with the underground.

Evidently it's pretty weird and i guess it's for a certain kind of morally weak person who can justify theft or who cannot empathize with the people they take from. 🙁
-:music: -- "It's a Pirates' Life for Me" --:music:
UNlike at Disneyland - piracy of IP is seriously bad business and its acceptance degrades the moral fiber of civilization

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Do you like similar story-driven RPGs to the Witcher? If not, ity doesn't matter what others with tastes "similar to yours" think.

i *bet* - if played the full version of the Witcher you might also love it - the demo is just not representative - that is, IF you like this type of RPG. If not, don't even look at the reviews.

I was implying that i DID play the full version of The Witcher, but since you missed it, I'll come out and say it - I played the full version fo the Witcher - without wasting money on it - and I hated it. I like story-driven RPGs. I didn't like the Witcher's combat, lack of customization, controls and constant use of Smacker videos. Seriously, it played a smacker video like every 3 minutes.




Are you seriously implying that "IP theft" is going to cause the downfall of man? I personally think IP laws are going to be the downfall of man. "IP" is a bunch of baloney anyway.

 

[yhelothar]

Even if 90% pirates, I can bet you that about 75% of that 90% wouldn't have bought the game to begin with. So in that case, you've only lost about 20% of the market.

 

[etrin]

I really beleve that Microsoft is paying the developers to say this.
They make money on console games they don't make money on pc games.

I wish that these games would run on linux then we could tell MS to go YOU KNOW WHAT

Most of the games that people didn't like reported good sales.
SO I can't believe that the ones people liked did not sell.

Piracy I say 3 things.
1 these same people would not by the game if it was hard coded and could not be cracked.
They just don't buy any software.
2 Piracy makes up for a crap game...OH HELL we should have sold 1 million copies those damn priates...NO ITS CRAP AND NO ONE BOUGHT IT
3 the protection sellers are the ones making up these numbers

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Do you like similar story-driven RPGs to the Witcher? If not, ity doesn't matter what others with tastes "similar to yours" think.

i *bet* - if played the full version of the Witcher you might also love it - the demo is just not representative - that is, IF you like this type of RPG. If not, don't even look at the reviews.

I was implying that i DID play the full version of The Witcher, but since you missed it, I'll come out and say it - I played the full version fo the Witcher - without wasting money on it - and I hated it. I like story-driven RPGs. I didn't like the Witcher's combat, lack of customization, controls and constant use of Smacker videos. Seriously, it played a smacker video like every 3 minutes.




Are you seriously implying that "IP theft" is going to cause the downfall of man? I personally think IP laws are going to be the downfall of man. "IP" is a bunch of baloney anyway.

well, if you had paid *careful* attention .. the FAULTS of the Witcher were widely mentioned - even by the people that *loved* it:

1) Irritating cutscenes
2) Performance issues - especially with load/save times

the COMBAT was also mentioned as something you would love or hate
:roll:

you may have read the reviews here but you sure didn't pay any attention
😛

No, not "IP theft" - the loss of morals associated with its acceptance is what is damaging. The selfishness - the overwhelming 'needs' of the individual to the detriment of their own colony - associated with it is a major problem plaguing humans as caretakers of this biosphere.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: apoppin

EDIT: Of course, im assuming things are still as difficult as when 13 year old me and friend tried to pirate the sims livin it up expansion pack many years ago. I own the game now, because i bought it through frustration

Actually Soviet, if you want the "easy button" nowadays, i am told that you scam an invite to a special tier of people on a 'forum' associated with a Torrent. After you become trusted, you can ask and will be directed to a private server or to a public one with your correct game's filename. You simply d/l a cracked ISO and burn it to DVD. You modify files and install the cracks [i am not giving any useful how to "details", i hope]. Evidently, you get the Key from your pirate friends and you can also buy them or try your luck with search or a key gen.
:Q

Sounds similar to what i did with the sims livin it up, except replace "special tier of forum people" with "fat kid down the road who knows computers and hacking" and all that stuff looks familiar, cracked ISO, key gens etc.

I would rather buy games than befriend pirate hacker type forumers and gain their trust, seems like a lot of effort i suppose lol.

 

[BudAshes]

The gaming business is making money like mad. They have nothing to complain about.

 

[coloumb]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
The gaming business is making money like mad. They have nothing to complain about.

true. But the rich like to get richer and not lose ANY profits whatsoever.

A lot of "pirated" versions typically are late beta's anyhow - so most of the time they are buggy.

I'm patient - I can wait a few weeks for the game to go on sale [typically most of them do].

 

[BD2003]

The problem of piracy is also exacerbated by the high cost of hardware. The COD4 devs judged the impact of piracy partially by looking at how many high end cards were bought, vs. how many games they sold, and determined that theres *WAY* more people with the hardware to play it than are actually buying it.

Gamers have limited funds. High end games require high end hardware. The more money spent to be *able* to play the game, the less money people have to *buy* the game.

You see games from blizzard and valve that provide high quality gameplay and graphics *without* requiring super high end hardware. They may not be pushing the bleeding edge, but theyre selling a ton of games and making a ton of money. According to valve at least, theyre not to worried about piracy.

Copy protection does not and will not ever work. They should be focusing their time and energy on making a game that more people can and want to buy, than focusing on making a game that few people can afford to pay for due to high hardware requirements, or adding on such intrusive copy protection that no one wants to deal with it.

They can cry all they want about how unfair it is, and how much money theyre "losing", but piracy will NEVER go away - and the cure is worse than the disease. The longer devs and pubs take to understand this, the more they'll hurt.

So yes, the impact of piracy is *vastly* overstated, whereas the impact of copy protection and super high requirements are understated.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Canai
let's just say that I have saved myself a lot of money that would have been wasted on horrid games.

QFT

Originally posted by: apoppin
if there is NO demo, then you depend on others that have 'tastes' similar to yours.

"Doesn't always work. This forum has several people with the same tastes as me, and it collectively LOVES "The Witcher" - I can't stand the damn game! If I'd have bought it sight-unseen without trying it first (and there was no demo when it was released), I'd have pissed away $50-60."

[/quote]

i feel the same way..my friend let me test it to see if i liked it and it was terrible in my opinion...the presentation was good but the gameplay is incredibly convoluted and it takes way too long to do the simplest of things..it also feels buggy and broken in many places