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Is the Chavez honeymoon almost over for Latin America

Originally posted by: sandorski
ho hum
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In the event that this post proves useless, it also doubles as a bump!
Anonymous: You can lead a Neo-Con to Reason, but you can't make him think

thxs for the bump🙂
 
Here's a pretty good article on the subject, not a reflexive bash against leftists (it speaks well of some varieties of those on the left in fact). Personally, I find it amusing that some of the more sheeplike leftists here on ATPN (no names necessary) adore Chavez so, to me it's simply affirmation of their utter naivete and shallowness that they fall for such obvious populism.


link

 
Originally posted by: glenn1
Here's a pretty good article on the subject, not a reflexive bash against leftists (it speaks well of some varieties of those on the left in fact). Personally, I find it amusing that some of the more sheeplike leftists here on ATPN (no names necessary) adore Chavez so, to me it's simply affirmation of their utter naivete and shallowness that they fall for such obvious populism.


link
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It's not so much "adoring" as it is accepting the Democrtaically elected leader whom many would rather see forcibly removed because he doesn't fit someone elses Political bent. If Democracy is good enough for Iraq and the "reason" for justification for everything done there, then it's good enough for Venezuela. As such, one needs to accept that Democracy doesn't always result in Political types that everyone will agree with.
 
Felt it worthwhile to bump this.

Alvaro Uribe won re-election in Colombia.
Peru refused to back a Chavez supported candidate and elected a former President.

All the past few weeks.

Mexico's Chavez friendly candidate is slipping in the polls.
 
Chavez needs to concern himself more with his own people. He is trying to connect himself with everyone via oil, but most Venezuelens are dirty poor and living in shanty towns.
 
The US has not generally had friendly relations with elected leaders of foreign nations. Mainly because democratically elected heads of state tend to put their peoples' good first, instead of toadying to the interests of the USA. They just don't know their place!
 
Originally posted by: Strk
Chavez needs to concern himself more with his own people. He is trying to connect himself with everyone via oil, but most Venezuelens are dirty poor and living in shanty towns.
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Erm hellooooo. That is exactly what he is doing. The Venezuelan people are dirt poor because previous governments have sold out to US interests. All the hulabaloo about Chavez being a dictator is simply because he doesn't pander to US interests but is trying to build a different future for his people than the one Washington dictates. Chavez is far more rooted to his own people than ever George W Bush is to his through both elections and in daily actions. George W Bush does not dare meet his people without screening his citizens for approved sycophants.

George W Bush has a vision, and that vision is US Hegemony over the world, for the US to rule the world supreme with no competitors allowed. Chavez has a vision, and that is to bring his people out of poverty. Now there are plenty of poor people in the US yet the will to bring these people out of poverty is sadly lacking in the Bush regime.

The US has unmatched resources, far more so than Venezuela, yet one leader is waging a war on poverty while the other is waging a war for the world's resources to fulfill his vision of US world dictatorship. Bush talks democracy, Chavez acts it. Chavez is far more popular in his country than Bush is in his. Bush works every day to limit democracy in action in his county, to dismantle the very constitution he is sworn to defend; Chavez roots his biggest decisions in referendums with his people. Both may be flawed leaders but for the US, under it's present criminal regime, to try to dictate where the Venezuelans want to take their country in the future is more than rank hipocrisy it is downright farcial in a decidedly unfunny way.


 
Aww, chavez has the oil and wont play nice, calls bush a fascist and says he sucks, wait...he is in more touch with americans then our own leaders. 😉


Dont forget you american wingnutzis, chavez IS the opposite.
Chavez 82% Approval

Bush 28% Approval
 
Originally posted by: GrGr

Erm hellooooo. That is exactly what he is doing. The Venezuelan people are dirt poor because previous governments have sold out to US interests. All the hulabaloo about Chavez being a dictator is simply because he doesn't pander to US interests but is trying to build a different future for his people than the one Washington dictates. Chavez is far more rooted to his own people than ever George W Bush is to his through both elections and in daily actions. George W Bush does not dare meet his people without screening his citizens for approved sycophants.

George W Bush has a vision, and that vision is US Hegemony over the world, for the US to rule the world supreme with no competitors allowed. Chavez has a vision, and that is to bring his people out of poverty. Now there are plenty of poor people in the US yet the will to bring these people out of poverty is sadly lacking in the Bush regime.

The US has unmatched resources, far more so than Venezuela, yet one leader is waging a war on poverty while the other is waging a war for the world's resources to fulfill his vision of US world dictatorship. Bush talks democracy, Chavez acts it. Chavez is far more popular in his country than Bush is in his. Bush works every day to limit democracy in action in his county, to dismantle the very constitution he is sworn to defend; Chavez roots his biggest decisions in referendums with his people. Both may be flawed leaders but for the US, under it's present criminal regime, to try to dictate where the Venezuelans want to take their country in the future is more than rank hipocrisy it is downright farcial in a decidedly unfunny way.
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I wouldn't agree with the post you quoted fully, nor yours fully.

Chavez seems to be in the position of grabbing the power by leveraging the poor people and then grabbing more power by making sure nobody can oust him. Now, we cannot assume that he is doing so to become a complete dictator with the intent of *not* helping the poor people, or we can assume he is doing it for only helping.

Personally, I believe his original intent was to struggle against a corrupt establishment, but that has become lost in a power grab and corruption. Overall, who will benefit? I doubt many people at all, much like Cuba, the entire society is frozen in time and advancements are withheld for the powerful only.

Democracy in Venezuela has taken a hit, from all unbiased accounts. WHether or not that is a good thing will only be evident in a few more years.

 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller


Personally, I believe his original intent was to struggle against a corrupt establishment, but that has become lost in a power grab and corruption. Overall, who will benefit?
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The facts show that chavez has helped venz, a lot regardless of how the us media has bashed him his actions speak louder then any commercial media backed by our real corrupt admin killing people and killing democracy claim the sky is falling.

The only thing that is falling is the corporate profits, and of course they are upset. Lying their asses off is a given when there is big money involved.
 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: LegendKiller


Personally, I believe his original intent was to struggle against a corrupt establishment, but that has become lost in a power grab and corruption. Overall, who will benefit?
Click to expand...

The facts show that chavez has helped venz, a lot regardless of how the us media has bashed him his actions speak louder then any commercial media backed by our real corrupt admin killing people and killing democracy claim the sky is falling.

The only thing that is falling is the corporate profits, and of course they are upset. Lying their asses off is a given when there is big money involved.
Click to expand...

I have asked you before, but you never responded. Do you have any unbiased proof that he has not made power grabs and limited freedom's like many have claimed?

I'd really like to read about it, but nobody seems to be able to produce anything good. All you can do is enter threads and "Corps suck....blah blah blah"

 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: LegendKiller


Personally, I believe his original intent was to struggle against a corrupt establishment, but that has become lost in a power grab and corruption. Overall, who will benefit?
Click to expand...

The facts show that chavez has helped venz, a lot regardless of how the us media has bashed him his actions speak louder then any commercial media backed by our real corrupt admin killing people and killing democracy claim the sky is falling.

The only thing that is falling is the corporate profits, and of course they are upset. Lying their asses off is a given when there is big money involved.
Click to expand...

I have asked you before, but you never responded. Do you have any unbiased proof that he has not made power grabs and limited freedom's like many have claimed?

I'd really like to read about it, but nobody seems to be able to produce anything good. All you can do is enter threads and "Corps suck....blah blah blah"
Click to expand...

I do believe the burden of proof is on the accuser, so in this case it would have to be you to substatiate your claim about limiting freedoms and what-not.

Otherwise it's like: Do you have any unbiased proof that you didn't commit so-and-so crime?
 
Originally posted by: lozina

I do believe the burden of proof is on the accuser, so in this case it would have to be you to substatiate your claim about limiting freedoms and what-not.

Otherwise it's like: Do you have any unbiased proof that you didn't commit so-and-so crime?
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If this were a court of law and proof were binding, then it might matter. However, I have provided evidence of my case that Chavez is limiting rights. Those claims were dismissed by Steeple without any proof to the contrary.

It is in both party's mutual benefit to both provide proof for their arguments. Otherwise, either side can make outlandish claims and then say "It's your burden, tag you're it!"
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: lozina

I do believe the burden of proof is on the accuser, so in this case it would have to be you to substatiate your claim about limiting freedoms and what-not.

Otherwise it's like: Do you have any unbiased proof that you didn't commit so-and-so crime?
Click to expand...

If this were a court of law and proof were binding, then it might matter. However, I have provided evidence of my case that Chavez is limiting rights. Those claims were dismissed by Steeple without any proof to the contrary.

It is in both party's mutual benefit to both provide proof for their arguments. Otherwise, either side can make outlandish claims and then say "It's your burden, tag you're it!"
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Well duh, it is your tinfoil, feel free to back it up.

The venz people are far better off, massive increase in literacy rates, and have a wildly popular president.

All you have is: The corporate media with obvious bias to us interests say you are wrong, so prove you are wrong.

Yeah ok, let me go out of my way to feed you your kool-aid. :roll:

Here is a good start for your ilk, http://www.freerepublic.com

Plenty of chavez bashing and imperialistic american uber alles fist pumping. Have fun. Dont write. 😉
 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot


Well duh, it is your tinfoil, feel free to back it up.

The venz people are far better off, massive increase in literacy rates, and have a wildly popular president.

All you have is: The corporate media with obvious bias to us interests say you are wrong, so prove you are wrong.

Yeah ok, let me go out of my way to feed you your kool-aid. :roll:

Here is a good start for your ilk, http://www.freerepublic.com

Plenty of chavez bashing and imperialistic american uber alles fist pumping. Have fun. Dont write. 😉
Click to expand...

Great way to debate Steeple! Insinuate that I am nothing but a knuckle dragging corporate whore, then provide one site with non-specific information that still doesn't provide any proof to what you say.

Provide proof that what you say is true. I am more than willing to listen, but are you more than willing to do anything but troll with hyperbolic statements?
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller


Provide proof that what you say is true. I am more than willing to listen, but are you more than willing to do anything but troll with hyperbolic statements?
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Hyperbole to you, to the rest of the world it is called reality.

I am sure you are willing to listen, to what you want to hear, I generally try to not debate fundamentalists or dittoheads, truth has a bias to their world, and I would rather smack my head against a brick wall.

This new president garcia in peru is a leftist also, he may be not on the same path as chavez, and his past shows, he made a freakin mess out of peru last time he was elected.

It is laughable that anyone with a clue sees this as a "victory" for the pro-us corporate crowd, it is sad for the peruvians.
 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: LegendKiller


Provide proof that what you say is true. I am more than willing to listen, but are you more than willing to do anything but troll with hyperbolic statements?
Click to expand...

Hyperbole to you, to the rest of the world it is called reality.

I am sure you are willing to listen, to what you want to hear, I generally try to not debate fundamentalists or dittoheads, truth has a bias to their world, and I would rather smack my head against a brick wall.

This new president garcia in peru is a leftist also, he may be not on the same path as chavez, and his past shows, he made a freakin mess out of peru last time he was elected.

It is laughable that anyone with a clue sees this as a "victory" for the pro-us corporate crowd, it is sad for the peruvians.
Click to expand...


The best way to avoid having to prove your own fundamentalist agenda is to label everybody else deaf and then scream at them.

nice way to operate in your world Steeple. It's too bad, since I am always willing to learn. It's readily apparent that you lack the fortitude to do anything but yell. It's really too bad, I would have enjoyed reading some of your "proof". Considering I am anything but a Zendari or Genx87, or even a Dave or you, I just don't agree with everything you say on every position, but you'd be surprised what we might agree on.

Who knows, you might have even been able to sway my viewpoint. I guess you are too much of a fundamentalist dittohead to do anything but what you are doing. Great job sparky, you pigeonholed yourself!
 
Well, you just pigeonholed yourself into supporting a leftist leader known to screwup his country bigtime becasue he does not support chavez even though chavez has made positive change, good one. Taking one for the team again it seems.

Once again more conflicting messages from the "democratic-supporting" USA that screams, we dont care who it is you elect: we just want the $$.
 
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Well, you just pigeonholed yourself into supporting a leftist leader known to screwup his country bigtime becasue he does not support chavez even though chavez has made positive change, good one. Taking one for the team again it seems.

Once again more conflicting messages from the "democratic-supporting" USA that screams, we dont care who it is you elect: we just want the $$.
Click to expand...

Funny, where, in my post here, did I advocate *ANY* position other than one of seeking knowledge. I said that I didn't know who was correct, is Chavez stealing power, or not? Nobody can provide any decent proof either way.

Please, show me where I definitively said that Chavez was good or bad? I have always asked for *INFORMATION*, which you fail to provide.
 
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