Is selling an Intel Engineering Sample (ES) unethical?

[PottedMeat]

Intel owns all ES samples.
http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-030747.htm

This applies to:
Intel® Atom™ Processor
Intel® Core™ Duo Processor
Intel® Core™ i7 Mobile Processor
Intel® Core™ i7 Processor Extreme Edition
Intel® Core™ Solo processor
Intel® Core™2 Duo Desktop Processor
Intel® Core™2 Duo Mobile Processor
Intel® Core™2 Extreme Mobile Processor
Intel® Core™2 Extreme Processor
Intel® Core™2 Quad Mobile Processor
Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor
Intel® Core™2 Solo Processor
Intel® Itanium® Processors
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor Extreme Edition
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processors
Intel® Pentium® D Processor
Intel® Pentium® M Processor
Intel® Pentium® Processor Extreme Edition
Intel® Pentium® Processor for Desktop
Intel® Pentium® Processor for Mobile
Intel® Xeon® Processor
Intel® Xeon® Processor 3000 Sequence
Intel® Xeon® Processor 5000 Sequence
Intel® Xeon® Processor 6000 Sequence
Intel® Xeon® Processor 7000 Sequence
Intel® Xeon® processor E3-1200 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E5-1600 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E5-2400 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E5-2600 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E5-4600 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E7-2800 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E7-4800 Product Family
Intel® Xeon® processor E7-8800 Product Family
Mobile Intel® Celeron® Processors
Mobile Intel® Pentium® 4 Processors - M

maybe OP has a 4004ES ?

 

[ShintaiDK]

can anyone say for sure it's always illegal? looks over simplistic

laws are not the same across the globe, people can be given some rights over what they have for an extended period...

anyway, I need a context to say if I think it's ethical or not.

not so black or white kind of thing as I said before.

Its illegal all over the world. I dont know any place where you can steal an item from a workplace, that they loaned from Intel, sell it and say its legal. Its both stealing and selling of stolen goods. In some countries the buyer is also breaking the law by buying stolen goods.

Its as black and white as it can be.

 

[nehalem256]

It is unethical. Moreover it is illegal.

It is as illegal as the same Intel employee stealing the office color laser printer and selling it to you.

The printer in this example, and the ES CPU in your situation, both belong to Intel (and its shareholders).

There really are no two bones about it here. Case closed.

Well, depending on what the ES sample is, it is quite possibly more like selling the old B&W laser printer that you pulled out of the garbage. I don't think doing that would be considered unethical by most people.

 

[SPBHM]

Its illegal all over the world. I dont know any place where you can steal an item from a workplace, that they loaned from Intel, sell it and say its legal. Its both stealing and selling of stolen goods. In some countries the buyer is also breaking the law by buying stolen goods.

Its as black and white as it can be.

but do you need to always interpret the source as "stealing" the CPU from Intel?
I'm not sure...

they send those CPUs for a lot of people, for different reasons... I'm not sure how it works.

 

[ShintaiDK]

but do you need to always interpret the source as "stealing" the CPU from Intel?
I'm not sure...

they send those CPUs for a lot of people, for different reasons... I'm not sure how it works.

Yes its stealing. Intel always owns the CPU. They never sold it to anyone.

 

[Rakehellion]

Illegal, yes. But morally ambiguous if both the buyer and seller know what an ES is. Intel doesn't really seem to care at all, as evidenced by the engineering samples that are flooding eBay. It's a good way to make a cheap system.

Can anyone show me evidence of anyone ever being prosecuted or pursued by Intel for possessing an engineering sample?

 

[ShintaiDK]

Illegal, yes. But morally ambiguous if both the buyer and seller know what an ES is. Intel doesn't really seem to care at all, as evidenced by the engineering samples that are flooding eBay. It's a good way to make a cheap system.

Can anyone show me evidence of anyone ever being prosecuted or pursued by Intel for possessing an engineering sample?

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1260875

Pretty dumb thing to ruin your life on.

 

[PPB]

It's illegal. Moreover, I don't see a chance of being punished for it outside the US and in another couple of EU and Asian countries.

 

[Ketchup]

I would probably just ask for my money back. If the seller refuses, turn him in.

 

[ShintaiDK]

ES samples are also to be considered defective. They can be beta versions. Or had extreme stress testing that permanently damaged them in one way or the other. Plus there is no warranty obviously.

It really make no sense to buy ES samples.

 

[JBT]

If its a Haswell or Ivy or maybe even a Sandy I think I'd return it for a refund. If its just a Core 2 Quad I wouldn't worry about it too much.

You saying it was expensive leads me to believe it was the former, and I'd get a refund.

 

[Idontcare]

Well, depending on what the ES sample is, it is quite possibly more like selling the old B&W laser printer that you pulled out of the garbage. I don't think doing that would be considered unethical by most people.

I would consider that unethical too, in the sense that no one should wish that kind of product on their worst enemies

but do you need to always interpret the source as "stealing" the CPU from Intel?
I'm not sure...

they send those CPUs for a lot of people, for different reasons... I'm not sure how it works.

If you check out a book from your local library and then sell it on craigslist, would that be any different?

I really don't understand these sort of "it isn't unethical unless you can define how it is under the narrowest of exceptions and exclusions possible" positions.

Do people really walk around looking to steal anything their neighbors don't have under lock and key by using the excuse "well it must not have been important to them, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to steal it so easily, so its fair game, not unethical". The rural farmer in me is scared by the moral-less and ethics-less people who post in these threads D: Thank god our neighbors weren't like you lot, we'd never get any food grown (it would all be stolen before harvest time).

 

[TerryMathews]

It really make no sense to buy ES samples.

Unless the ES is one that had features that never made it to retail.

There have been a few over the years. I seem to remember that there were Netburst ESes that came out that had unlocked multipliers, the only way to get an unlock on a P4 aside from the Emergency Edition.

 

[Kenmitch]

Surprised nobody asked what chip it is. What say you OP?

Guess he's run for cover.

 

[crashtech]

I wonder why ebay has not banned the sale of ES chips. It's annoying to have to wade through them to find a legit good deal.

 

[RampantAndroid]

ES chips are never given out, anyone giving or selling one is selling or giving stolen property. Period.

Communicate with seller showing proof that ES chips are not theirs to sell, demand refund. If refund is not given, get ahold of intel corporate.

Involve police from the get go, I'd say. And Intel.

 

[Rakehellion]

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1260875

Pretty dumb thing to ruin your life on.

That's for selling, not buying.

 

[Rakehellion]

It really make no sense to buy ES samples.

If you can get a $2000 Xeon for $300, that makes a lot of sense.

 

[jhu]

What do you guys think? I'm wondering because I came into possession of one recently. I bought a quad core PC on Craigslist, paid a pretty sizeable amount for it. In other words, the chip wasn't given to me. I found it strange because the guy selling the computer said he actually works for Intel. Turns out, the CPU was an Engineering Sample. It works and performs just fine, but it says (ES). Now I'm wondering, would selling it be unethical? I paid a price for it, to an Intel employee no less, and I'm just wondering if I have to eat that expense and consider it non-sellable. What do you guys think?

As an Intel shareholder, gimme back my stolen property!

 

[crashtech]

If you can get a $2000 Xeon for $300, that makes a lot of sense.

Using that logic, it would make even more "sense" to simply steal one.

 

[voodoo7817]

I would consider that unethical too, in the sense that no one should wish that kind of product on their worst enemies

If you check out a book from your local library and then sell it on craigslist, would that be any different?

I really don't understand these sort of "it isn't unethical unless you can define how it is under the narrowest of exceptions and exclusions possible" positions.

Do people really walk around looking to steal anything their neighbors don't have under lock and key by using the excuse "well it must not have been important to them, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to steal it so easily, so its fair game, not unethical". The rural farmer in me is scared by the moral-less and ethics-less people who post in these threads D: Thank god our neighbors weren't like you lot, we'd never get any food grown (it would all be stolen before harvest time).

Your last paragraph reminded me of the Crazy Rhubarb Lady. I won't link to the video (NSFW, language), but it's worth checking out.

 

[Ketchup]

What do you guys think? I'm wondering because I came into possession of one recently. I bought a quad core PC on Craigslist, paid a pretty sizeable amount for it. In other words, the chip wasn't given to me. I found it strange because the guy selling the computer said he actually works for Intel. Turns out, the CPU was an Engineering Sample. It works and performs just fine, but it says (ES). Now I'm wondering, would selling it be unethical? I paid a price for it, to an Intel employee no less, and I'm just wondering if I have to eat that expense and consider it non-sellable. What do you guys think?

As I read this again, the way you word it makes me wonder if you know it was an ES when you bought it.

 

[aigomorla]

As far as i know Intel never asks for these things back so... who cares?

lies... u know me..

ive been asked by intel to send ES cpu's back.

once because i got a hold of inhouse... nevermind being ES... someone at the china factory messed up and sent my distributor inhouse!
And intel wanted them back.

The other because they thought they saw my distributor's microcode on EBAY... which wasn't... so i had to send that back also to prove my distributor's innocence.
Got an apology + free SSD from intel once they found out chip was still in authorized partner's hands.

So yes.. INTEL does ask for them back... its very moody on when they ask for it, but they do.



BTW... guys article in NDA STATES:
After Testing / Evaluation period has ended, you must either:
1. RETURN said property to Intel
2. Destory the Evaluation product so it NEVER SEE'S RETAIL

Now u guys know why i was killing C2D's left and right back when i was a tester.
None of those C2D's which i torched at high load + high voltage could EVER leave my testing lab.
Most people also use definition 2, as personal... but it still CAN NOT EVER SEE RETAIL!!!

Its unethical to sell the ESs.
Its unethical to have the ES's leave the testing lab.

If you can get a $2000 Xeon for $300, that makes a lot of sense.

its unethical to sell a ES because it NEVER BELONG'd to you period.
Why is this notion so hard to understand?

I have gone though probably 100 ES's all though authorized channels.
I know everything there is to know about ES's.
Anyone who sells an ES is flat out FRAUD.
In the OP's case, he didnt even know he was getting an ES until he got the chip.

That is UNETHICAL.

Its like renting a car, and then selling it.

And if and WHEN intel asks for ES, u have no options.
You must return the chips or they will push legal on you.
Depending on how new the chip is, they may push or not.
They will NOT replace the chip they take from you.
They will NOT even say thank you.
They will look at you smug and say pray we dont get our lawyers after you.

That's for selling, not buying.

and when your seller gets busted and intel gets his paypal + list.
WHO do u think they come after next?

If they want there chips back... they will get there chips back.
Steve Hensley <-- Intel Security... yeah... i know quite a bit of people who clashed heads with this guy...



Last note!!!
95% of all the ES's resold are abused left and right for overclocking / non authorized intel testing.
Basically a Overclocker got his hands on your chip to overclock, and brag on forums.
Now he's trying to resell to recoop the price of the ES.

Just on that pretense.. i wouldnt ever trust a ES unless it again came from an authorized distributor.
I am 99.9999% sure that guy isnt an intel employee.
Intel employee's would NEVER sell u an ES.

 

[2timer]

As I read this again, the way you word it makes me wonder if you know it was an ES when you bought it.

Just to be clear, I was not aware it was an ES when I purchased it. It was a computer I bought, not a bare chip, as I said in OP. And I had my questions answered, so I will not discuss it further.

 

[piasabird]

For all we know when Intel starts on a new core they may give the samples to employees when it is no longer needed. However, an engineering sample may be below the quality of both a Boxed commercial processor and an OEM product. This is one reason why it is illegal to sell. It is a misrepresentation of a finished product. The retail version may be better then ES, or they could be identical. Often they use ES processors to test in ES motherboard or to write new code for. In reality what Intel does is they produce thousanads of processors and put them in warehouses and then they release the new processors on a given day or close to it. Intel is probably fanatical about testing processors every way possible. So Intel probably releases a lot of ES CPU's so everyone can get ready for the release and test the new hardware/software. Tom's Hardware sometimes uses some ES hardware to test for early motherboard reviews and what not.