Is plasma still better than LCD?

[yours truly]

The people who think Kuro's are dim, are probably used to an unnatural overblown picture with the contrast way too high. (imo)

 

[BenSkywalker]

And lastly, if you see a "blue tint" during a movie, you need to call your calibrator and have him redo his work because he messed something up. If the set is calibrated correctly, you definitely won't see any tint.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/pioneer-contrastconcept00.jpg

So Pioneer doesn't know how to calibrate their displays? Too bad that 10G panel they show never made it out, that would have been sweet.

As far as matching the results in the image I linked earlier, .001 measured blacks for the XBR8 versus .002 for the best black level on Kuros(after calibration for both of course) isn't matching up? The Kuros is twice as bright on blacks (for those not catching the sarcasm, while technically accurate both TVs stack up as being nigh completely black).

And again, the 72Hz is not the problem, it is the source. What you are getting a "headache" from is from the actual source being 24FPS.

Heh, been a long time since someone tried to talk down to me about signal theory on these forums

No, in no uncertain terms am I confusing framerate and refresh rate. Every BRD in my collection runs at 24p, due to motion blurring and the nature of data storage on film media that doesn't give me a headache. Where issues crop up is in displays that don't use a constant state pixel luminance to display images and update their states too slowly to saturate the optic nerve with enough information to trick the mind into seeing a steady state light. Plasmas have this problem. Check out comparisons as a general example between the G10 and V10, the 96Hz mode on the V10 reduces the flicker noticeably on those sets as even people with very slow/narrow optic nerves are able to notice the flickering in that mode(forcing most G10 owners into using 3:2 pulldown @60Hz to make it watchable). This is a matter of physics, plasmas flicker. You may or may not notice it, but it is very real- just as it was for CRTs. LCDs do not flicker(the displays themselves don't, the backlights are normally set for 120Hz on CCFL displays, that can get tiring after a while on the eyes).

Another point, most 120Hz TVs have a 120Hz refresh rate, same for 240Hz displays- what most of them don't have is support for 120Hz or 240Hz signal input(yet, 3D displays will have this). They use frame based interpolation to create additional frames- these frames are drawn on a screen refresh. For 120Hz models most makers use a 5 frame forward/back data sample to draw additional frames, 9 frames for 240Hz IIRC. The process is along the lines of an applied blur filter process but instead of blending data, you average it out for the desired results.

They compared the XBR8 and Kuro Elite and the Kuro won out pretty much every time.

Most of the time ideal viewing angle is what gave the nod to the Kuros- while they simply avoid ambient lighting altogether. For me, ambient lighting is a far more real world issue to me then the fall off in IQ off angle. Whenever I watch TV there is some degree of light, I don't always have people watching from off angle positions. True, when my buddies come over to watch a game those on the sides aren't going to get the same IQ as those sitting in the sweet spot, but it isn't like I'm dealing with a signal close to BRD level quality at that point anyway. Normally when I do have friends over to watch a game, we do not watch it in the dark. Actually, I don't think I have ever watched a game with my friends in the dark. So, it comes down to reduced IQ or blinding glare- not a real tough call. Obviously the situation would change considerably as I almost always watch movies without ambient light being an issue, but I don't often watch them with a bunch of friends over either.

When people use the word "dim," I don't know if they typically wear sunglasses when watching their sets or what, because the Kuro can be extremely bright.

When calibrated well enough to get rid of the blue push, it is clearly dimmer then the XBR8 when calibrated. We are of course talking about a matter of degrees between the two, outside of the two differing issues with viewability they are quite close to each other overall(well, except that the Kuros still flickers too much for me).

 

[JackBurton]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/pioneer-contrastconcept00.jpg

So Pioneer doesn't know how to calibrate their displays? Too bad that 10G panel they show never made it out, that would have been sweet.

Man, you are really grasping here. Do you know anything about the pictures you are posting?

1. That is an old picture and it is obviously an exaggeration. The ECC demo was fantastic, but no way does a Kuro's blacks look that bright in real life.

2. That is an 8G Kuro, not a 9G Kuro. But even still, an 8G Kuro definitely has deeper black levels than that in person.

3. Here is the same demo running on a 9G Kuro:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=920011&page=162

It's odd I don't see any "blue tint" in those pictures. And those black levels sure don't look blue like in the picture you linked. Weird.

As far as matching the results in the image I linked earlier, .001 measured blacks for the XBR8 versus .002 for the best black level on Kuros(after calibration for both of course) isn't matching up? The Kuros is twice as bright on blacks (for those not catching the sarcasm, while technically accurate both TVs stack up as being nigh completely black).

Wrong again. 9G Kuros measure 0.001fL. So if you are saying the XBR8 measures at 0.001 and the 9G Kuros measure at 0.001, then your first picture you linked was obviously bogus, correct? Please stop me if I'm missing something here. Now can you tell me again what type of Pioneer was Sony comparing the XBR8 to in that picture again?

No, in no uncertain terms am I confusing framerate and refresh rate. Every BRD in my collection runs at 24p, due to motion blurring and the nature of data storage on film media that doesn't give me a headache. Where issues crop up is in displays that don't use a constant state pixel luminance to display images and update their states too slowly to saturate the optic nerve with enough information to trick the mind into seeing a steady state light. Plasmas have this problem. Check out comparisons as a general example between the G10 and V10, the 96Hz mode on the V10 reduces the flicker noticeably on those sets as even people with very slow/narrow optic nerves are able to notice the flickering in that mode(forcing most G10 owners into using 3:2 pulldown @60Hz to make it watchable). This is a matter of physics, plasmas flicker. You may or may not notice it, but it is very real- just as it was for CRTs. LCDs do not flicker(the displays themselves don't, the backlights are normally set for 120Hz on CCFL displays, that can get tiring after a while on the eyes).

Yes, it sounds like you are. Again, to test your theory, see if the same judder (flicker) happens when you play a 60FPS game on a Pioneer. You'll notice the judder goes away and is extremely smooth. If it was a problem with the refresh rate, the judder would also be present in the game. Pretty simple test. What you've gotten used to is the frame interpolation the XBR8 produces (or other LCDs). It is really as simple as that. If you want more proof, here you go:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Most of the time ideal viewing angle is what gave the nod to the Kuros- while they simply avoid ambient lighting altogether. For me, ambient lighting is a far more real world issue to me then the fall off in IQ off angle. Whenever I watch TV there is some degree of light, I don't always have people watching from off angle positions. True, when my buddies come over to watch a game those on the sides aren't going to get the same IQ as those sitting in the sweet spot, but it isn't like I'm dealing with a signal close to BRD level quality at that point anyway. Normally when I do have friends over to watch a game, we do not watch it in the dark. Actually, I don't think I have ever watched a game with my friends in the dark. So, it comes down to reduced IQ or blinding glare- not a real tough call. Obviously the situation would change considerably as I almost always watch movies without ambient light being an issue, but I don't often watch them with a bunch of friends over either.

Not true in the least, and I think you know that.

As for ambient light, if you insist on having an open window with the sun shining directly on the TV, I agree, a matte screen LCD like the XBR8 would be a better choice than any plasma. I don't know how anyone could consider this an ideal viewing environment as you are going to get a degraded picture with direct light, but hey, to each his own. Now if you are talking about just regular ambient light, I have pretty much all my lights turned on in the living room when company comes over and there is no glare, at all. Why? Because my lights are overhead and not right in front of the display. They also get a perfect picture at any angle. And no, you don't need a Blu-ray movie to see the steep picture quality drop at off angles on the XBR8.

 

[djnsmith7]

This thread is fun to follow...<grabs bag of popcorn>...<pulls 2 more bags out of the micro> <tosses 1 to Jack & 1 to Ben>

 

[cmdrdredd]

This is ridiculous.

LCD, Plasma. It depends on your room, how big you want it and how much you want to spend. From what I've seen, Plasma is cheaper than LCD since many people believe Plasma has flaws like IR and the like. Newer ones don't, at least nothing like there used to be.

I like my LCD, but that's because for the size I had to stick to there was no better deal at the time. If I waited who knows.

My point is, these arguments are just that...arguments. Look at the deals you can find for the screen size(s) you're thinking about, look at them all multiple times and eventually you will come to a decision. I was about 30sec from buying a Panasonic 42" 1080p Plasma but I decided to go with a 40" Samsung LCD due to the price break I was offered. The difference for my usage isn't very big anyway, and I'd wager I'm better off with the LCD because of room lighting and heavy gaming.

 

[sivart]

CRT's have IR
Plasma's have IR
LCD's have IR

IR <> Bad...it goes away with time.

Burn in, that is bad, and you can burn in an LCD, CRT, or Plasma. All being very hard to do. I heard a story where a guy went to his buddy's LCD and paused porn on it for 2 weeks straight (24/7)...now he sees some T&A all the time on his LCD Even when it is off.

 

[dwell]

My guess is we'll see the first 40" OLED display at E3 2011 and LCD and Plasma pretty much killed off by 2015 for OLED. Plasma has superior PQ but it's a dinosaur technologically. Thin and Green are in and plasma is neither.

 

[JackBurton]

This is ridiculous.

LCD, Plasma. It depends on your room, how big you want it and how much you want to spend. From what I've seen, Plasma is cheaper than LCD since many people believe Plasma has flaws like IR and the like. Newer ones don't, at least nothing like there used to be.

I like my LCD, but that's because for the size I had to stick to there was no better deal at the time. If I waited who knows.

My point is, these arguments are just that...arguments. Look at the deals you can find for the screen size(s) you're thinking about, look at them all multiple times and eventually you will come to a decision. I was about 30sec from buying a Panasonic 42" 1080p Plasma but I decided to go with a 40" Samsung LCD due to the price break I was offered. The difference for my usage isn't very big anyway, and I'd wager I'm better off with the LCD because of room lighting and heavy gaming.

If it was that easy, we wouldn't be having these debates (LCD vs plasma).

 

[JackBurton]

My guess is we'll see the first 40" OLED display at E3 2011 and LCD and Plasma pretty much killed off by 2015 for OLED. Plasma has superior PQ but it's a dinosaur technologically. Thin and Green are in and plasma is neither.

When OLED comes in 60"+ and the kinks are mostly worked out, I'll gladly trade in my plasma.

 

[djnsmith7]

The people who think Kuro's are dim, are probably used to an unnatural overblown picture with the contrast way too high. (imo)

This is definitely not true in my case.

 

[JackBurton]

This is definitely not true in my case.

If you put a calibrated Kuro right beside a calibrated Samsung, I think you'd agree that Kuro is nowhere close to dim. If you are going by what you saw in the store, I can understand why you'd think they are dim.

 

[JackBurton]

We should have held this discussed AFTER CES. If you are not keeping up with what is going on, I'll give you a quick summary.

Panasonic comes out with their new plasma models with an ugly look (style wise) and questionable specs. Samsung unveils their new line of plasmas which look really nice. Samsung also unveiled their new LCD line which looks slick as hell and super thin. Vizio releases a cheap 70"+ LCD and Sony release their absolutely beautiful looking LCD models. I think Sony dropped the ball on their 2008-2009 LCD models style wise, but their new 2010 models look gorgeous! Unfortunately Sony doesn't look like they are going to be releasing their XBR (RGB backlit LED) line until the fall of 2010.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Jack- when you used a CRT monitor, what refresh rate did you use?

 

[JackBurton]

Jack- when you used a CRT monitor, what refresh rate did you use?

I believe it was 100Hz.

 

[zoiks]

Jack, I disagree with your dim comment, as I too find the Kuro's to be dim by comparison to the Samsung plasmas & I definitely do not watch my display in Torch Mode. I've actually followed an AVS calibrator's recommended settings for my display.

I was recently on vacation and was staying at my sisters with her family and while I was there, I accompanied them to the local store where they bought one of the Samsung 50" 1080p plasmas. I think that was a mistake and a huge letdown as no matter what we tried, we couldn't get the Samsung to look even close to what their existing Pioneer 42" looks like. The picture on the Sammy is extremely dim compared to the vibrant Pioneer. We even downloaded settings from AVSforum members and other sites and they all sucked.
The audio on the Samsung tv also left a lot to be desired at all settings. Upon checkingAVSforum members indicated that that's the way it is. Most people use an AV reciever but my sister didn't so she/they were a bit miffed with their purchase.

 

[sivart]

We even downloaded settings from AVSforum members and other sites and they all sucked.
The audio on the Samsung tv also left a lot to be desired at all settings. Upon checkingAVSforum members indicated that that's the way it is. Most people use an AV reciever but my sister didn't so she/they were a bit miffed with their purchase.

1) Using online settings is not a good idea. Each environment is different, each person's eyes are different, each TV is different. Buy a calibration disc or pay to have it calibrated.

2) If you can afford a $1000 TV, you should probably drop $200 on at least an HTIB. Then again, if the manufacturer's are making $1000 TV's they could put in better sound.

 

[ultimatebob]

I have a 50" Panasonic 1080p plasma in my living room, and a Sony 1080p (the Bravia W series) LCD in my bedroom. I like them both... the Panasonic has richer blacks, but the Sony has "better" whites. I can't put my finger on why it looks better... it just does!

I like the menu system on the Sony better as well... but the Sony is overpriced for what you get. Even though the Sony is 10" smaller, the price for both of them is about same in stores right now.

I think that the LED backlit LCD TV's sets look just as good as a Plasma myself... but they cost a lot more. I'll bet that the price will come down by next Christmas, though.

 

[BenSkywalker]

I believe it was 100Hz.

Why did you run @100Hz versus the 60Hz default?

 

[JackBurton]

Why did you run @100Hz versus the 60Hz default?

Because my games ran over 60FPS.

 

[aclim]

If your buying a plasma, only ones right now id consider buying would be a pio kuro(best tv available) or if you cant find one, a Panasonic V10

 

[Shlong]

Yeah, but most people (videophiles) believe the new Samsung LED LCDs are trash, with the exception of the 8500. And contrary to what you think, they would take the standard CCFL LCD (LNxxB750) over any of the edge lit Samsung LED models (8000, 7100, 7000, 6000). If it is picture quality you are after, Samsung's edge lit LED LCDs are not it. Sorry. But of course it is up to you. If you like the new Samsungs, have at 'em.

Really? Almost all the posts I've seen about the 6 - 8 series LED backlit Samsung TV's at avsforum, highdef forum, etc. have been almost all praise.

 

[JackBurton]

Really? Almost all the posts I've seen about the 6 - 8 series LED backlit Samsung TV's at avsforum, highdef forum, etc. have been almost all praise.

You may want to do more reading at avsforum. The general consensus is edge lit LED <<< back lit LED (all 6000 - 8000 series are edge lit).

 

[djnsmith7]

Jack, I think anyone reading this thread can figure out that you don't like the Samsung LED displays, but I have to say, some of the models you've referenced not only look good, but look much better than most of their LCD cousins.

 

[marincounty]

My guess is we'll see the first 40" OLED display at E3 2011 and LCD and Plasma pretty much killed off by 2015 for OLED. Plasma has superior PQ but it's a dinosaur technologically. Thin and Green are in and plasma is neither.

I've read that they are having problems with OLED technology, it may never happen.
And the power consumption of plasmas is highly exaggerated, some plasmas use less than lcd.

 

[Bonesdad]

CRT's have IR
Plasma's have IR
LCD's have IR

IR <> Bad...it goes away with time.

Burn in, that is bad, and you can burn in an LCD, CRT, or Plasma. All being very hard to do. I heard a story where a guy went to his buddy's LCD and paused porn on it for 2 weeks straight (24/7)...now he sees some T&A all the time on his LCD Even when it is off.

and that's bad....right?