No, he isn't, but you appear to be based on marketing talk. What your links are comparing is CCFL to LED, all of them are LCDs.
No, he isn't, but you appear to be based on marketing talk. What your links are comparing is CCFL to LED, all of them are LCDs.
There will be no shock. The 9G Kuros simply outperforms the XBR8, hands down. And you've got to be kidding me with the XBR10. It's not even a backlit LED model and I wouldn't even put it in the same league as the XBR8. The XBR12 is rumored to be the successor to the XBR8, the XBR10 is not. Until then, the XBR8 is the best LCDs have to offer and still fall short of 9G Kuro Elite performance. Sorry.
And are you kidding me with the blue tint and 72Hz refresh rate? First off is a purple tint and that is the anti-reflective coating. You won't see it when the set it actually ON. As for the 72Hz refresh, this allows the Pioneer set to process a 1080p/24 signal just about perfect. THE best of any set available. The XBR8 has an option for motionflow which smooths out the video, but also gives it a "fake" look. I'd say if you have a problem with the way Pioneer processes a 1080p/24 signal, you actually have a problem with the source, not how Pioneer handles it. As for the whine, which most people describes as "buzzing," it is minor and can barely be heard. You REALLY have to be listening for it and would consider it a non-issue.
lol, are you kidding me? That picture came out before the XBR8 was available and they couldn't even determine if it was a 7G or 8G Pioneer. Most have pretty much established it wasn't a 9G Kuro though. One thing's for sure, it definitely doesn't compare the same with a 9G Kuro in person.
There are a few issues I have with the XBR8. First off is the viewing angles. DEFINITELY better than the Samsung 950 or 8500, but the Kuro just slaps it around. The Pioneer basically has perfect viewing angles. This also goes for most plasmas, but some Panasonics exhibit double images at extreme angles because of Panasonic's use of two glass panels. I'd take it over an XBR8's angle performance though as you have to be at an extreme angle to see the problem. Not so with the Sony. Secondly is the blooming. Not as bad as the Samsung 950, but it still there and could be distracting. Next, input lag. Again, better than an equivalent Samsung, but no comparison when it comes to a plasma, especially a Pioneer.
Overall the 9G Pioneer Kuro Elites are unmatched for not only there PQ but also their performance. They've been pitted up against just about all displays, plasma and LCDs alike and they always come out on top, PQ and performance wise. The only time an XBR8 can match or surpass the Pioneer's black level is when the screen is pretty much all black in which all LED zones are turned off. Display an actual image and the Pioneer Elite trumps the XBR8 in black level and shadow detail. And until Sony can find a way to control each LED individually, I don't see it beating out a 9G Kuro.
Now if you prefer an XBR8 over a 9G Kuro, that's fine. You may just prefer an LCD image. But pretty much all professional reviewers have crowned the 9G Kuro Elite as king, and no manufacture has been able to dethrone the 2008 Pioneer plasma yet. We'll see what 2010 offers, but I don't think we'll reach that level of performance again until 2011...maybe.
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No, my point is that Samsung's LED products look much better than their LCD products & that they are in fact, different products.
My other point is that LED & Plasma both look better than LCD (using Samsung's product lines as an example).
I know that many, many people have the opinion that the Kuro's were the say all & be all plasma products, but I'm not one of those people. They are great products, but IMO, the Samsung's look better, overall.
Yeah, but most people (videophiles) believe the new Samsung LED LCDs are trash, with the exception of the 8500. And contrary to what you think, they would take the standard CCFL LCD (LNxxB750) over any of the edge lit Samsung LED models (8000, 7100, 7000, 6000). If it is picture quality you are after, Samsung's edge lit LED LCDs are not it. Sorry. But of course it is up to you. If you like the new Samsungs, have at 'em.
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I do like the new Samsung LED's, but that's not what I own. I prefer the Samsung plasma's over the LED products. But again, that's just my personal preference. I am a videophile & the Samsung's aren't trash.
Jack, I can tell you're a die-hard Kuro fan, and that's fine, & again, Kuro's are a great product, but that doesn't mean there aren't other great products out there. What's interesting to me is, this is a typical response from a die-hard Kuro fan (& probably Kuro owner), whenever someone says Kuro's aren't the best.
Jack, I can tell you're a die-hard Kuro fan, and that's fine, & again, Kuro's are a great product, but that doesn't mean there aren't other great products out there. What's interesting to me is, this is a typical response from a die-hard Kuro fan (& probably Kuro owner), whenever someone says Kuro's aren't the best.
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Lol, videophiles, man, who cares what they think.
Go the the store and pay for one you like for yourself. End of story.
dj, I never said Samsung is trash. I said their LED sets are trash (with the exception of their 8500).
As for me being a "die-hard Kuro fan," the only thing I'd say to that is I call it the way I see it. I do love Pioneer plasmas, but not because they are Pioneer products, but because they are the best HDTVs available. If Sony came out with a set that surpassed Pioneer's performance, I guess I would become a "die-hard Sony fan."
I'm only after the best set, I don't care who offers it. Again, I call it the way I see it and try to be as unbiased as I can. If you think other sets outperform a 9G Kuro Elite, maybe you can start writing to the professional reviewers that consistently rank the Kuro Elite as number 1. Maybe they are "die-hard Kuro fans" too and are trying to mislead you. And FYI, I'd respond the same way and defend Sony if someone came in and said a Samsung edge lit LED LCD is just as good as a Sony XBR8. It just isn't so. But I guess if I defend Sony enough against claims like this I'd be called a "die-hard Sony fan."
In any case, Pioneer plasmas are pretty much gone. So I really don't see much point to including them in a discussion where someone is trying to decide on a set. The best now is Sony, Samsung and Panasonic. If you are currently in the market for an HDTV and are looking for the best PQ, take a look at those manufactures. Pioneer shouldn't really even come into the conversation.
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lol, I say listen to this man and don't listen to the people that have purchased the set and point out obvious issues with it. I say go in blind and see what looks good in the store and buy it. No need for research. That's just a waste of time.
Yes, we all know that the store TVs are setup perfectly for viewing in your house
If it helps I would also say the Kuros would be the best PQ TV out there. I was extremely surprised and sad when Pioneer said they would no longer be making Plasmas. Yet I would probably not ever buy one (unless I had a lot of extra money laying around) as I think Panasonic offers a better PQ/Price than the Kuros. Having read Jack's other posts I don't think he is a Pioneer fan due to fanboism alone
Having setup more than a few Panasonic and Samsung Plasmas I do not like the Samsungs as much as the Panasonics. The PQ on a properly calibrated Panasonic was generally better than a Samsung
I do really like Samsung's LCD tvs though
sivart
Golden Member
- Oct 20, 2000
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They may technically be "different products" (well, so is the GMC and Chevy truck), but LED is an LED backlit LCD, so you have 95% of the same weaknesses as LCD (motion blur, response time, etc). The screen itself is still the same. Remove the CCFL light source from an LCD, throw in an LED backlight and you have an "LED." Then, don't even get me started about the types of LED backlit LCD's...or would that be two different products to you?
I hate that the companies are trying to trick consumers into buy LED backlit LCD's by making them think it is a completely different display type...it isn't. I feel sorry for those people that got 'duped' into believing they were buying something different.
DLP, Plasma, LCD, OLED, CRT are the major display types. LED is not a display type. (Someone help me if I left out any display types that you can buy in a big box store)
Jack, I'm not sure how much time you've spent doing side by side comparisons between displays, but I spent 6 months in multiple viewing environments & the Samsung plasmas always looked better than the Kuros, IMO. Granted, in several of those comparisons, the sales people leaned toward the Kuro (their personal opinions), but not all. Several of them also leaned towards the Samsung products, so there isn't a say all & be all winner here.
Yes, I've read several of the same reviews you have indicating the Kuro is a better product, but that still doesn't make it so. What makes a product better than another product is doing as many up close & personal comparisons as you can, put all the reviews aside, tone down the settings on the displays in the showrooms & make a decision based on your own viewing experience.
There are still a ton of LCD fans / owners who believe their displays look better than plasmas, even when taking motion blur into consideration. Even though I won't ever agree with that, it's still their personal opinion & that's what matters.
I will admit, sometimes I come off as pushing Samsung plasmas onto others, but my true intention is to have them do their own comparisons & in different stores under different lighting arrangements. This will put them in a position to make the best buying decision.
No offense was intended, Jack, but for a minute there, it sounded like you were coming off as I called it, a die-hard Kuro fan, as I've seen that approach a hundred times at AVS & it got real old, real quick. Several of those owners would bash other products & add unnecessary arrogance to any conversation where someone mentioned another product looked better than a Kuro.
I'm still ticked off about being able to buy the upgraded version of my 58" for half price just a year later. Lucky bastages that take up that deal. It's true, I've seen the upgraded display for $1699 at Fry's. List price was $3599 when I bought mine a year ago.
Yes, I've read several of the same reviews you have indicating the Kuro is a better product, but that still doesn't make it so. What makes a product better than another product is doing as many up close & personal comparisons as you can, put all the reviews aside, tone down the settings on the displays in the showrooms & make a decision based on your own viewing experience.
There are still a ton of LCD fans / owners who believe their displays look better than plasmas, even when taking motion blur into consideration. Even though I won't ever agree with that, it's still their personal opinion & that's what matters.
I will admit, sometimes I come off as pushing Samsung plasmas onto others, but my true intention is to have them do their own comparisons & in different stores under different lighting arrangements. This will put them in a position to make the best buying decision.
No offense was intended, Jack, but for a minute there, it sounded like you were coming off as I called it, a die-hard Kuro fan, as I've seen that approach a hundred times at AVS & it got real old, real quick. Several of those owners would bash other products & add unnecessary arrogance to any conversation where someone mentioned another product looked better than a Kuro.
I'm still ticked off about being able to buy the upgraded version of my 58" for half price just a year later. Lucky bastages that take up that deal.
It's true, I've seen the upgraded display for $1699 at Fry's. List price was $3599 when I bought mine a year ago.They may technically be "different products" (well, so is the GMC and Chevy truck), but LED is an LED backlit LCD, so you have 95% of the same weaknesses as LCD (motion blur, response time, etc). The screen itself is still the same. Remove the CCFL light source from an LCD, throw in an LED backlight and you have an "LED." Then, don't even get me started about the types of LED backlit LCD's...or would that be two different products to you?
I hate that the companies are trying to trick consumers into buy LED backlit LCD's by making them think it is a completely different display type...it isn't. I feel sorry for those people that got 'duped' into believing they were buying something different.
DLP, Plasma, LCD, OLED, CRT are the major display types. LED is not a display type. (Someone help me if I left out any display types that you can buy in a big box store)
I'm going to skip your smartass question & just say that, for the most part, I think we are in agreement in reference to the technical differences between LED & LCD. I don't want this to go too far off topic, so I will leave it there. I made my point earlier.
What makes the comparisons difficult is that no two TV sets are the same. Even sets from the same manufacturer will need different adjustments to reach their potential. This is one area I have often felt Panasonic falls short. You could usually count on quite a few of their lines, esp the TH-xxPX80, PZ80, PX800, PZ800, needing a large amount of setting adjustment. (That may have changed with their newer lines. I no longer have the job where I get to play with TVs and Stereos)
The Samsungs and Pioneers always seemed to be closer to where they needed to be out of the box
Properly calibrating the TVs for display in store is near impossible due to the lighting conditions unless the store has a 'demo room' that you can completely blackout
I don't disagree, but the investment is worth giving it your best shot. The Magnolia store was a great place to do that because they do have a demo room & we did black everything out. That was the only time I felt the Kuro actually looked spectacular. Every other time I looked at a Kuro, it looked great, but not spectacular. Keeping in mind I took 6 months to make my decision, so we're talking hundreds of hours of visual comparisons.
No offense taken dj. I actually like Samsung's plasma offerings. Their style is very nice (I'd rate it over Panasonic's) and their color accuracy is fantastic. It's accuracy pretty much ranks up their with Pioneer Elites. Now here is the bad news. Black levels aren't that great on Samsung plasmas. Forget comparing it to Kuros, it's not even at Panasonic's level (which is actually good this year). You can lower the black level on the new Samsungs but you'll sacrifice shadow detail. So in the end, most people just settle for higher black levels. It also is more prone to image retention. On a Pioneer, IR is pretty much non existent unless you are doing something really crazy. After watching a movie with black bars for hours there is absolutely no IR at all. Same for games. HUDs, power meters, no IR even after hours of gaming. With a Samsung, IR can be distracting but it does get better the more hours you put on it.
If Samsung can fix those issues, I think it would be a fantastic display. But that is easier said than done. I actually think Samsung makes a nice plasma. I just don't think it is at Pioneer's level yet.
If Samsung can fix those issues, I think it would be a fantastic display. But that is easier said than done. I actually think Samsung makes a nice plasma. I just don't think it is at Pioneer's level yet.
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Samsung has implemented IR correction technology, which works very well. I know when my brother plays his PS3 or 360, the HUD's are still there when he's turned the systems off. The great thing is, all I have to do is run the scrolling bars for 30 seconds & they're gone. It may be an inconvenience, but since I don't have do it very often, it's really not that big of a deal. I do agree that it would be nice if the IR weren't a factor at all. You made some good points.
As far as the black levels, when I did my comparisons, even though the Samsung's were a bit behind the Kuro's, it never made enough of a difference to change my opinion. The vivid colors on a properly calibrated Samsung were what sold me, not the black levels. The black levels look fine to me though.
As far as the black levels, when I did my comparisons, even though the Samsung's were a bit behind the Kuro's, it never made enough of a difference to change my opinion. The vivid colors on a properly calibrated Samsung were what sold me, not the black levels. The black levels look fine to me though.
dj, I think Samsung makes a very nice plasma, no question about it. Those are just two areas where Samsung can improve on. That's all.
Every single "LED" TV Samsung makes is a LCD. LED just states the kind of lighting it uses, that is it.
It was a 6020, isn't that a 9G set?
I wouldn't put it in the same league as the XBR8 either, but it did take the XBR8's price range, edge lit or not. Obviously the contrast and black levels don't compare to a Kuros, the Kuros is a bit off in luminance.
The 9G Kuro is rather dim and can still give people headaches due to the refresh rate of the display.
The blue tint is certainly visible in person on every Kuros I have ever seen. I have seen some sets calibrated to the point where it is far less offensive and they are extremely dim in comparison to what the XBR8 can do while still maintaining complete blacks. The 72Hz refresh rate is absolutely a serious issue for me, it gives me headaches.
Plasmas refresh like a CRT. While I used to be quite used to it when vieweing TV I ended up spoiled by not watching a pulsing dim/bright image for a few years and now I can't really stand it. In that particular aspect some of the new Panny displays are supposed to be offering a 96Hz mode which would vastly improve that situation. It has nothing to do with how the set processes 24p- if you ever sat down and used a XBR8 you would know that like the Kuros is supports 24p without 3:2 pulldown. It isn't an issue of signal processing, 120Hz, 72Hz and 96Hz all support 24p without having to worry about processing the signal. As far as motionflow, anyone who seriously would use that for anything outside of watching sports shouldn't even have their perspective heard when talking about IQ
I'd certainly agree to that point with one caveat, reflections on the Kuros are terrible depending on the position of the lighting in the area(my buddy has his set up in a way that the light from the hall makes off angle viewing garbage on his Kuros if it is on
).I have seen the Kuros exhibit too much of a blue push with shadow detail, or set dimly enough to get rid of it all detail lost in shadows.
The XBR8 is a 2008 LCD, global recessions suck don't they. I wouldn't say that overall I prefer LCD's IQ, although the refresh rate is now annoying as hell- too much time away from CRTs from me. Neither the Kuros nor the XBR8 can match the IQ that we had from the top CRTs that were available(I have a 2141SB-BK, best CRT display ever made in my posession) so I see it entirely as a matter of compromise. I think the XBR8 is a better compromise then the Kuros overall, and I'm certainly not alone in my assesment. As I mentioned, when you step down to the next best LCD the situation changes quite a bit, but when comparing the best versus the best right now I think the XBR8 is a better display overall then the Kuros.
I'm not holding my breath, I figure we will likely be waiting for OLED to surpass the current benchmark for each technology. Price is too much of a driving factor and the people most apt to be interested in moving to a set that surpasses either the XBR8 or Kuros likely already have one of them, not sure if the R&D to get better quality would really be worth it with the looming demise of either tech on the high end and the volume isn't likely to make it very viable with current economic realities.
I'd have to say that if you are a fan of plasmas in general you'd have to be pretty much blind not to be a 'fan' of Kuros(much like the XBR8 on the LCD side). It is the hands down best offering using its' technology.
yours truly
Golden Member
- Aug 19, 2006
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I bought a Kuro because it looked the best. Every other set I looked at left me feeling underwhelmed, aside from Panasonic's overpriced VX100 series. But their 2010 professional panel PF12 is looking very promising..
It's just a matter of time before the Kuro loses it's crown, but right now I'm perfectly happy with my calibrated KRP 600A There's still nothing that can touch it.
It's just a matter of time before the Kuro loses it's crown, but right now I'm perfectly happy with my calibrated KRP 600A
There's still nothing that can touch it.I'm not going to quote and post, but I will address your comments below.
If that is a 6020 in that comparison, can you point me to the source that verifies it? And if you are able to produces the source, I'd like to see a picture comparing the two AFTER the release of the XBR8 from other owners. For some reason people haven't been able to get those results from the actual production XBR8 model. Weird.
As for the "dim" picture on Kuros, that term is usually used by someone that is used to an LCD in torch mode. Calibrate both to D65 (the standard) and you'll see the XBR8 is equally as "dim." I can crank a Kuro to crazy bright colors too, but it's just not accurate.
And again, the 72Hz is not the problem, it is the source. What you are getting a "headache" from is from the actual source being 24FPS. Pioneer reproduces the 1080p/24 source just about perfect. Better than any set available. The XBR8 doesn't refresh at 120Hz, it refreshes at 60Hz and injects frames to reach 120Hz. That's not a true refresh rate. If you prefer the way XBR8 manipulates the source, that's fine. But don't blame Pioneer when the actual fault lies in the movie. If you don't believe me, play a game like Ninja Gaiden Sigma on the PS3 and see if you see the stuttering. The game runs at 60FPS and plays liquid smooth on a Kuro. Now compare the 72Hz Kuro vs the "120Hz" XBR8 in that game. Technically both should be equal in performance since its refresh rate is "only" 60FPS, but in reality the Kuro plays much smoother without blur or input lag.
As for viewing angles, if you have a problem with a Kuro and a "light in the hall" being on, turn the light off. Seriously? That is not a viewing angle problem, that is a reflection. Plasmas use glass and glass reflects. Pioneer has some of the best anti-reflective coating, but in the end it's still glass. Fortunately you can correct glare pretty easily. With an LCD's viewing angle problem though, the only thing you can do is make sure everyone sits right in front of the TV. Not very practical when you invite people over for a movie or football game. You can only get so many people directly in front of a TV. The others sitting on the sides get a degraded picture. Pretty bad trade off if you ask me. With a plasma, every seat in the house is a good seat.
And lastly, if you see a "blue tint" during a movie, you need to call your calibrator and have him redo his work because he messed something up. If the set is calibrated correctly, you definitely won't see any tint.
Now we can keep going back and forth with this, but professional reviewers and shootout results pretty much back up my claims that the 9G Kuro Elite is the top HDTV. They compared the XBR8 and Kuro Elite and the Kuro won out pretty much every time. Now if you prefer the XBR8, that is great, but that is most likely because you just prefer the LCD look. And if you do, the XBR8 still holds that crown. I'd actually choose the XBR8 over Samsung's new 8500, hands down.
I definitely agree with you here.
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While I don't consider 33 ft-L dim (average brightness of 100% window on a 9th Gen non-ISF Kuro or 12th gen Panasonic V10), calibrating the KRP-600m in ISF mode yields about 50 ft-L while still keeping everything far more accurate than any LCD available. 50 ft-L competes well with daylight and is painfully bright in a dim room.
Calibration report:
http://www.controlcal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=541&d=1257786070
Jack, I disagree with your dim comment, as I too find the Kuro's to be dim by comparison to the Samsung plasmas & I definitely do not watch my display in Torch Mode. I've actually followed an AVS calibrator's recommended settings for my display.
Exactly. When people use the word "dim," I don't know if they typically wear sunglasses when watching their sets or what, because the Kuro can be extremely bright. Painfully bright as you said. I usually dial it waaaay down.
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