Is Mexico a parasite on the USA?

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: jjsole
They're working their ass off doing sh!t labor and are still living enough below their means to send money home?

They're not parasitic, they're an example that people should learn from.

Beyond that, its their piss-poor wages that keep you're produce prices down, so who's the real parasite?

Our industry is much more parasitic of them if anything.

If you get rid of the migrant workers, then you significantly reduce the margin within the industry because their labor costs soar, and then you're really going to nail the economy in many different ways.

Yes, they offer some benefits, and yes it's admirable of them that they send large chunks of cash southwards to their family.

But I'm positive that if you do the math you'll realize that illegal immigrants (afterall that's who we're talking about here) are a negative against the US. If this was not the case it wouldn't be called illegal. The government recognizes the fact that too many Mexicans coming to the US is a bad thing - and there are too many. I don't mean it racially and they could be Canadians (except that they are Mexicans).

People speak of the benefit of cheap mexican labor as if there are no americans to do the same jobs. There are millions of americans available to work for piss poor wages. Afterall look in any mcdonalds. Now those are truly the skilless of the world - whereas a mexican building a house does have some skills. However, for whatever benefit you gain from cheaper mexican labor I'm sure is more than offset by a) The loss to the economy from them sending money home, b) increased stress on public services like roads police (remember if you're illegal you're not paying taxes), c) increased stresses on health care, d) theft of jobs that would otherwise go to Americans, etc.

If all of the illegal immigrants coming into the US were starting up technology and healthcare firms I don't think there would be much room to complain. But, how many mexican professionals do you see? Since being in Alabama for two years I can vouch for the fact that there are a LOT of mexicans here. In my entire time here being exposed to quite a few companies I've seen ONE mexican in my field. Mrsskoorb works in a large hospital and the only mexicans she's seen are a few janitors. They bring with them not education and skills, but instead a dilution of the american level of capability. If you're running a company do you bring in the best you can or bring in people who don't know what they're doing?

I know I'm right on this immigration issue. If I was not the US government wouldn't have border guards up. It wouldn't have deportation (not that it ever uses it for mexicans anyway), and it wouldn't maintain the illegality of millions of the people in the US.

 

[Lucky]

I'm also going to help you out my flagwaving friend

I answered on this statement "US workers most productive in the world" - he didn't say "US workers most productive in the world overall"

if you knew anything about analyzing (simple) statistics you would know that the "productive overall" means sh*t
you can not compare the output of somebody who works 60 hours a week with somebody with someone who works 40 hours a week (comparing apples with oranges)

the only thing you can compary in this case is the output/hour

I know, it must be hard to swallow that the average "lazy" French worker is in fact more productive then the average American worker.

*AHEM*

Study: U.S. workers most productive overall

 

[T2T III]

They do the jobs you would never do. I garauntee, even if you were out of work, you wouldn't even think about doing some of the jobs they do for the pay they make.

That is so true. Then, you also have to consider those who do "day labor" and then get ripped off when the guy drops them off in the parking lot and leaves without paying them.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech

They do the jobs you would never do. I garauntee, even if you were out of work, you wouldn't even think about doing some of the jobs they do for the pay they make.

That is so true. Then, you also have to consider those who do "day labor" and then get ripped off when the guy drops them off in the parking lot and leaves without paying them.

I don't think it is true. Would I consider doing this? No, because I have an education. There are more Americans working in these particular jobs we're talking about (construction, janitorial, etc.) than Mexican illegals anyway so obviously they don't "do the jobs we don't want to." WE don't want to do them because we have educations which allow us better jobs. It's that simple.

As I've said in other posts on the issue Canada doesn't have a huge influx of illegals who suffer from poor educations and often little to no english skills and canada has plenty of people willing to do hard low-end labor. That fact is illustrated by the relatively lousy pay of it (otherwise people would make a lot doing these crappy jobs). And it's not because Canada is full of stupid dumbies - they probably have a higher level of college education per capita than the US. I think the US would do just fine without millions of non-english speaking poorly educated people flooding its borders every year.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Lucky

I'm also going to help you out my flagwaving friend

I answered on this statement "US workers most productive in the world" - he didn't say "US workers most productive in the world overall"

if you knew anything about analyzing (simple) statistics you would know that the "productive overall" means sh*t
you can not compare the output of somebody who works 60 hours a week with somebody with someone who works 40 hours a week (comparing apples with oranges)

the only thing you can compary in this case is the output/hour

I know, it must be hard to swallow that the average "lazy" French worker is in fact more productive then the average American worker.

*AHEM*

Study: U.S. workers most productive overall

dude you don't get it

 

[MustangSVT]

the question isnt racist, but your implications are racist.

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: jjsole
They're working their ass off doing sh!t labor and are still living enough below their means to send money home?

They're not parasitic, they're an example that people should learn from.

Beyond that, its their piss-poor wages that keep you're produce prices down, so who's the real parasite?

Our industry is much more parasitic of them if anything.

If you get rid of the migrant workers, then you significantly reduce the margin within the industry because their labor costs soar, and then you're really going to nail the economy in many different ways.

That's a good argument...

If you lived in Missippippi in 1860!!

"They're not slaves, they're an example that people should learn from...
Beyond that, it's their piss-poor wages that keep you're tobacco prices down...
If you get rid of the slaves, then you significantly reduce the margin within the industry because their labor costs soar, and then you're really going to nail the economy in many different ways"

I think there's a great parallel between these two institutions: illegitimate (at least in the minds of the rest of society) workers hurt the country in many different ways. Not everything comes down to dollars and cents.

 

[Xenon]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Anyone who asks this question is a racist

hmm, well 22/181 responders are stupid idiots. How about that.

Rephrase the question with Canada - would you still answer with the racist response? Dumbass[es]!

I don't have the numbers but I would have to think that overall economically Mexico is parasitic. I don't know how much money the US gives to mexico (any...? Probably), but more importantly I'm looking at this from an illegal immigration standpoint. I don't know what the trade deficit is either but it would be interesting to wonder where the US would be if Mexico dissapeared and whether the US would be economically better for it.

Canadian trade deficit
Mexican trade deficit

So, let me get this straight. You guys would have us believe that your question was not racially motivated? Uh huh...right.

Truth is both countries are reliant on the US for much of their economies. Ask yourself this question. Why is it so easy to ask this question of Mexico and so hard to see that the same conditions exist for Canada (economically speaking)? Interesting to note that this trade deficit with Mexico didn't always exist. Link

 

[ElFenix]

[something or other that is illegal] are a negative against the US. If this was not the case it wouldn't be called illegal.

that's some rather crappy logic

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: jjsole
They're working their ass off doing sh!t labor and are still living enough below their means to send money home?

They're not parasitic, they're an example that people should learn from.

Beyond that, its their piss-poor wages that keep you're produce prices down, so who's the real parasite?

Our industry is much more parasitic of them if anything.

If you get rid of the migrant workers, then you significantly reduce the margin within the industry because their labor costs soar, and then you're really going to nail the economy in many different ways.

Yes, they offer some benefits, and yes it's admirable of them that they send large chunks of cash southwards to their family.

But I'm positive that if you do the math you'll realize that illegal immigrants (afterall that's who we're talking about here) are a negative against the US. If this was not the case it wouldn't be called illegal. The government recognizes the fact that too many Mexicans coming to the US is a bad thing - and there are too many. I don't mean it racially and they could be Canadians (except that they are Mexicans).

People speak of the benefit of cheap mexican labor as if there are no americans to do the same jobs. There are millions of americans available to work for piss poor wages. Afterall look in any mcdonalds. Now those are truly the skilless of the world - whereas a mexican building a house does have some skills. However, for whatever benefit you gain from cheaper mexican labor I'm sure is more than offset by a) The loss to the economy from them sending money home, b) increased stress on public services like roads police (remember if you're illegal you're not paying taxes), c) increased stresses on health care, d) theft of jobs that would otherwise go to Americans, etc.

If all of the illegal immigrants coming into the US were starting up technology and healthcare firms I don't think there would be much room to complain. But, how many mexican professionals do you see? Since being in Alabama for two years I can vouch for the fact that there are a LOT of mexicans here. In my entire time here being exposed to quite a few companies I've seen ONE mexican in my field. Mrsskoorb works in a large hospital and the only mexicans she's seen are a few janitors. They bring with them not education and skills, but instead a dilution of the american level of capability. If you're running a company do you bring in the best you can or bring in people who don't know what they're doing?

I know I'm right on this immigration issue. If I was not the US government wouldn't have border guards up. It wouldn't have deportation (not that it ever uses it for mexicans anyway), and it wouldn't maintain the illegality of millions of the people in the US.

Post less and think more Skoorb....

We don't receive ANY money at ALL from the USA goverment..... No grants, no gifts, no aid at all! All the money that comes here is part of the commercial trade.... Ah, sometimes there are money transfers approved by the US congress, but those are LOANS! Nothing is FREE!
How much do we receive...? Nothing! Everything is part of the trade balance, or in some special cases, loans that *cough* have a very convenient interest rate for the lender......

Regarding the skilled Mexicans that you don't see in the USA, it is because they are not leaving the country. The inmense majority of our skilled people are staying here. If you have decent skills, studies and a decent job life here is great. Not as many luxuries as we could have in the USA, but for many of us the fact of being here helping the country is more important that the superflous things you could buy with more money..... After all, the most important things in life can't be bought with money. We enjoy our life and our culture, and feel proud to be here even if we don't have as many luxuries -often unneded- ..... we are happy in our country, and try to make it better everyday..... that is something you couldn't understand. Good luck

I am glad to see someone posted the trade balance of Mexico - USA...... so this should shut up all the idits that said we are parasites..... (which are many by the resulkts ofmthe poll) Those are the fact. Everything is trade. You have people that moved illegally??? Yes, but they are not sitting in a couch scratching their belly watching TV and collecting welfare...... they moved because thay want to work, and most of them work hard. The money they get and send back to their families is the PAYMENT of the work thay have already done...... nothing is free, nothing is parasitic here......
You call yourself free, but yours is one of the most brainwashed societies in the world..... Enjoy it!

Alex

 

[alexruiz]

by the way, I already pointed that the CNN study of productivity is utter cr@p.....

Productivity is a measurement of efficiency, but if you have to work more to achieve the same, then where is the "productivity" advantage.....

If you disagree, prove that my statement is wrong.

Also, I pointed that productivity MUST be measured in goods/services made/rendered PER unit of time Ask any economist about it. Measuring productivity en total output of $$ is plainly wrong, because it will show the advanced countries on top always..... and if that is the case, why go to China to look for cheap labor, if the CNN reports says the locals are the most productive......

That reported should be fired and obligated as punishment to witness the real productivity of the UAW workers....

 

[Stark]

Alex, i guess you didn't read the LA Times article I linked earlier. I'll cut and paste some highlights.

Because the nation can't control its borders, the number of illegal immigrants grows by an estimated half-million each year. They come because we invite them with lax law enforcement and menial jobs. Their presence makes our own poor more destitute, creating a Third World chaos in the California economy that we are only beginning to understand.

Patricia Morena has no time for a philosophical discussion on unauthorized immigration. She lives with it, or tries to. She's a U.S. citizen of Mexican descent, and a motel maid in Chula Vista, six miles north of the border. She's short and heavyset, and dresses with care in tasteful thrift shop. She earns $300 before taxes, when she's fortunate enough to have a five-day week.

But she won't ask for a raise. "If I ask for money, the bosses say, 'I can get a young girl who is faster and cheaper,' " she says. "The bosses have power over illegals. They know they're afraid and not going to ask for overtime, even though I know the law says they should get it."

Although she never studied economics, she has learned a fundamental economic truth: The only leverage unskilled workers have is scarcity of labor. Morena can't work her way up the economic ladder because the bottom rungs have been broken off by the weight of millions of new illegal workers. The census bureau says the number of illegal immigrants in the country doubled in the 1990s, from 3.5 million to 7 million, the largest such increase in the nation's history.

So Morena soldiers on at $7.50 an hour, living with a reality that the late Cesar Chavez, champion of the farm worker, understood back in the 1960s. Chavez, says David M. Kennedy, Pulitzer Prize-winning historian from Stanford University, advocated limited immigration to protect the wage levels of the Chicano workers he struggled to unionize. Without such restrictions, demand for labor would fall, and with it the pressure to pay higher wages.

Apart from the proliferation of workers standing on street corners waiting for jobs, it's difficult to see that migration from Mexico into California during the past two decades is on a scale that astonishes even those who specialize in making sense out of human patterns. One such expert is Victor Davis Hanson, a professor of classics at Cal State Fresno and the author of "Mexifornia," a recent book that reveals the extent of the changing culture and demographics of California. He says that no immigration in American history even remotely compares to the one underway along the southwest border, which, incidentally, is the longest that has ever separated First- and Third World countries.

Statewide, there are 1.6 million undocumented Mexicans, and 4.8 million in the country, Passel says. They make up more than half of the 8.5-million-plus undocumented persons of all nationalities.

The image of migrants popularized by their advocates is of work-tough campesinos who cross the border spitting on their hands and eagerly looking for shovels. That is true to a considerable extent, because a lot of shoveling gets done. As the U.S. Chamber of Commerce says in support of a new amnesty for unauthorized immigrants: "There are approximately 10 million undocumented workers employed throughout the country who are working hard and performing tasks that most Americans take for granted but won't do themselves."

The second half of that sentence has been accepted as a truth for generations. Illegal immigrants are just doing the work Americans won't. But is it true today?

"If I'm going to stay in business, I have to do what the illegals do. They never pay taxes, on profits or on their employees' pay. Right there, I'm at a 20% disadvantage. They'll come in here with about six guys with paintbrushes who work for peanuts, do a fair job, and then they're gone." These competitors have driven every American out of gardening, he added, and are doing it to house-painting, roofing and car repair. He concluded in frustration, "What am I supposed to do?"

Roy Beck, executive director of Numbers USA Education and Research Foundation, a Washington, D.C., organization devoted to immigration control, says it's not that millions of unemployed Americans "are too lazy and shiftless to bus tables or wash dishes." What the Chamber of Commerce and like-minded business groups really mean, he says, is that "Americans won't work like slaves, like serfs. Americans want to be paid and treated fairly."

"The National Restaurant Assn., for one, doesn't want their customers to know that this system forces illegal workers to live in abject poverty," Beck says. "It's the serfdom thing. If customers thought about it, they'd say, 'No, I don't want people who are hidden in the kitchen or serving me to be so poor and neglected that they might be TB carriers, and hate my guts for not caring about them.' "

Terry Anderson, a black talk-radio host in Los Angeles, says he sees similar displacement throughout the African American community. "I defy you to find a black janitor in L.A.," Anderson says. "In the '70s, the auto body-repair business in South-Central was pretty much occupied by blacks. Those jobs are all gone now. They're all held by Hispanics, and all of them are illegals. And those $25 jobs that blacks used to hold in the '70s now pay $8 to $10, and a black man can't get hired even if he's expert. It's absolute discrimination, because there's a perception that a Hispanic works better. Well, he works cheaper. They're in the country illegally, so they have no bargaining power, and the wages get driven down."

The point he and Beck make is decidedly not a racial one, not black versus Latino or Mexican versus white. Their point is about money. Illegal, powerless immigrants versus relatively empowered American citizens. Who among us could survive if every day, the streets outside our workplaces were lined with people willing to do our jobs for two-thirds or half the pay because in the world they came from, in the world where their money is sent, half of our pay amounted to riches?

Anderson particularly despairs of the effect the scarcity of low-end jobs has on poor youths. In May, 6.1 million whites and 1.7 million blacks in the country were unemployed. But of those without jobs, young people took the worst hit. The unemployment rate for whites ages 16 to 19 in the labor force was 15.4%, with 892,000 unemployed; for black teenagers, it was 270,000 out of work, at a scary 35% rate.

These kids are the millions of potential burger-flippers and mowers of lawns that Beck and Anderson say employers are bypassing in favor of undocumented migrants. "There was this kid in my neighborhood?good kid, 17 years old, and he goes down to the local McDonald's to get an after-school job," Anderson says. "The manager tells him that because he doesn't speak Spanish, she can't hire him because it would have a disruptive effect on all the other workers who don't speak English. I mean, think of that: Here's a kid trying to get a little ahead?American born, four generations in South-Central?who's told he can't sell French fries because he can't speak a foreign language. You want to talk about disillusionment?"

As cheap, illegal workers flood the labor force, governments and taxpayers are feeling the pinch. Just as one dishonest act often leads to another, illegal labor has led to other illegalities. The most pervasive is the untaxed cash transaction. It has created a surging "underground economy" that has become a hole in society's pocket through which falls many of our democratic values, and a lot of loose cash.

John Chiang of Los Angeles, one of five members of the state Board of Equalization, California's tax oversight agency, says off-the-books businesses can have a "profoundly dislocating effect" on the economy. It pushes some businesses to compete by also cutting legal corners, and discourages other businesses from coming to California.

A study last year by the Economic Roundtable, a Los Angeles research group, found that the underground sector in Southern California probably accounts for 20% or more of the economy, says economist Dan Flaming, author of the report. Nationwide, the International Monetary Fund reported in a 2002 issues paper, underground work amounted to 10% of the total economy.

As the underground sector surged in the '90s, an unpleasant snowball began to gather mass. The amount of tax revenues generated by the economy didn't keep pace with the population growth and accompanying rise in demands for government services. That, in turn, "adds significantly to the tax burden of honest taxpayers," Chiang says. He estimates that the state is losing $7 billion a year in unpaid taxes.

The state Employment Development Department's estimates are somewhat lower, at $3 billion to $6 billion annually in lost income and wage-related taxes. Any way it's counted, that's a pile of money for a state running a $38-billion deficit that Sacramento is attempting to close by cutting services, raising taxes and borrowing money.

An often-cited National Research Council study in 1997 concluded that each native household in California was paying $1,178 a year in state and local taxes to cover services used by immigrant (legal and illegal) households. The demand for such offsetting taxes undoubtedly has increased in proportion to the numbers of illegal immigrants since then.

America's health system draws its lifeblood from private health insurance, and if large numbers of patients have no insurance or can't pay, the money has to be taken from taxes?siphoned from the state treasury. A robust society can absorb a certain amount of those losses, but if the tax base isn't expanding as fast as the demands placed on it, the system begins to shut down?as Los Angeles County's has.

In 2002, 33% of L.A. County residents were without health insurance or were grossly underinsured. The county thinks that rate is the highest in the United States, which helps to explain why the county prepared to close two hospitals last year because there was too much demand and too little revenue.

Carol Gunter is acting director of county emergency medical services, the person who has to try to run a "business" in which about a quarter of the customers don't have the means to pay for her product, but are entitled to its full service. So just how many emergency room patients are illegal? Federal law prevents her from knowing because hospitals are forbidden to ask about citizenship. What Gunter does know is that, despite billion-dollar federal bailouts, the number of public L.A. County hospitals recently went from six to five, and another is going to close.

Jim Lott, executive vice president of the Hospital Assn. of Southern California, puts it bluntly: "We are in a [health-care] meltdown in Los Angeles County to the extent we have never seen before."

The state can't be far behind. An estimated 20% of patients throughout California are uninsured, with hospitals incurring $3.6 billion in uncompensated care. Fifty-one percent of the state's hospitals operated in the red last year.

Philip Martin, professor of agricultural and resource economics at UC Davis, says farmers could quickly mechanize labor-intensive harvesting if it were not so cheap to hire migrants. "Back in the late '60s and '70s, there was a fear there wouldn't be enough farm workers, so that spurred mechanization research," Martin says. "Then there were 70-some subsidized projects at the University of California aimed at figuring out how to pick oranges mechanically. Today, there aren't any, because there is plenty of cheap farm labor. There is probably a machine available to harvest every crop grown in the U.S., but they won't be used as long as the laborers are available at low wages."

Martin's point reveals this turned-around truism: Agriculture in Mexico is modernizing, which forces many laborers off their jobs there. Machines are displacing laborers in the cornfields of Mexico, so they come north to the "advanced" United States to pick fruits and vegetables by hand.

The migrants who come north used to be regarded as sellouts or deserters in Mexican society. Now, they're heroes praised by Mexican President Vicente Fox for the money they inject into that faltering economy. That is also a first, Hanson says. "Mexico is a failing society that stays afloat by exporting human capital. If you shut that border down, in five years you'd have a revolution, because Mexico can't meet the aspirations of its own people."

I think that covers most of the points you made in your last post.

 

[alexruiz]

Well, you just posted the weapons to close this thread and declare that everyone who answered "Yes" to you poll is officialy a moron:

- Nowhere in the thread I have seen how Mexico, as a country is depleting the USA or being a parasite.... No one has posted how we are getting money while being lazy...

I don't see evidence of aid, or gifts, or grants.... where are they??
- The information about the immigrants is quite accurate, still some flaws. Nobody will deny that when you have a lot of people coming to populate a place at a very fast rate, there will be problems, illegal immigrants or not. Even if the people were legal, the cities don't have the capabilities to grow services THAT FAST. Legal or not, so many moving at the same time will cause problems.
- Illegal immigrant from Mexico DOESN'T mean ALL of Mexico.... granted, while most of them work hard, there are several problems associated with their migration. However, how does it relate to me or the millions of Mexicans working hard here? How are we being parasites of the USA? How are "taking advantage" of the USA? Your poll was flawed since the beginning, and all the people who answered YES should have a giant sticker on their forehead saying "Officially Idiot"... All of them know who they are, no reason to hide....
- A lot of people parrot about "free trade, free competition" Why being scared about "free competition here"? Just because there are people willing to do more for less?
- This author Hanson has no clue either of how the country works: "Modernizing or agriculture" is still a dream, as over 90% of our farmers still use rustic techniques, no fertilizer due to the lack of money and monocultive only..... How is that "modernizing"?
- Regarding the people being praised as heroes, they have always been considered kind of heroes... someone who has the guts to suffer discrimination, expose their lifes and being chased as criminals because they just wanted to get food for their family deserve praise.....
- How is my goverment still a "giant pimple in your @$$"? Corruption? I said it should make us buddies....
- Someone posted a link from a reporter saying that the money sent by the illegal people is the second largest entrance of foreign currency (6.4 e9 USD)..... that reporter also needs to be fired. Oil is not only 8e9 USD, is something like 4 times that. Here is a list of the 20 largest corporations in the country (2002 chart), extracted from our "Mexican fortune 500"....


1 1 Petróleos Mexicanos1 / DF / Petróleo y derivados 424,694.0 (4.2) nd nd SP
2 2 Carso Global Telecom1 / DF / Comunicaciones 111,037.1 3.6 42,661.8 1.3 1
3 3 Teléfonos de México1 / DF / Comunicaciones 110,966.9 4.1 42,591.6 2.8 2
4 5 General Motors de México1 / DF / Vehículos automotores 107,807.2 3.3 nd nd SP
5 4 Comisión Federal de Electricidad1 / DF / Electricidad, gas y agua 101,313.3 0.1 (599.0) (48.6) 393
6 8 Wal-Mart de México1 / DF / Autoservicio 88,540.6 14.7 5,115.4 25.2 13
7 7 Daimler-Chrysler de México2 / DF / Vehículos automotores 86,815.3 0.1 nd nd SP
8 9 Volkswagen de México1 / Puebla / Vehículos automotores 65,421.1 (9.3) nd nd SP
9 12 Cemex1 / NL / Cemento hidráulico 63,486.8 18.6 15,161.1 (3.7) 3
10 10 Ford Motor Company / DF / Vehículos automotores 51,975.1 (11.7) nd nd SP
11 6 Grupo Carso1 / DF / Corporativo 51,376.5 (1.1) 7,948.3 (1.8) 7
12 13 Fomento Económico Mexicano1 / NL / Corporativo 49,681.0 6.0 8,174.0 11.4 6
13 14 Alfa Corporativo1 / NL / Corporativo 44,491.1 (5.5) 3,700.7 (32.7) 19
14 15 IBM de México / DF / Hardware y software 41,705.4 na nd nd SP
15 16 Nissan Mexicana / DF / Vehículos automotores 41,420.0 7.5nd nd SP
16 NF América Móvil1 / DF / Comunicaciones 41,363.9 37.4 6,073.4 109.0 12
17 18 Hewlett-Packard de México / DF / Hardware y software 37,914.1 13.1 187.4 nab 155
18 27 Grupo Bal® / DF / Corporativo 36,188.0 6.2 2,420.0 (20.6) 27
19 24 Grupo Financiero Banamex1 / DF / Grupo financiero 34,735.9 (13.7) 8,889.0 (23.8) 5
20 30 General Electric de México (corporativo)1 / DF / Corporativo 34,666.0 11.1 4,910.0 11.8 14
21 20 Grupo Bimbo1 / DF / Productos alimenticios 33,855.3 5.8 3,276.7 (4.6) 21
22 19 Controladora Comercial Mexicana1 / DF / Autoservicio 33,063.0 0.2 1,027.6 (11.2) 59
23 23 Grupo Modelo1 / DF / Cerveza y malta 32,168.6 5.1 7,853.5 (1.3) 8
24 31 Grupo Financiero BBVA-Bancomer1 / DF / Grupo financiero 30,673.9 22.9 10,699.1 94.2 4
25 NF GE International México1 / DF / Equipos y aparatos eléctricos 29,827.0 11.4 3,690.0 6.9 20

The first number after the name is the revenue, in thousands of millions in pesos. Use a exchange rate of aprox 10 pesos = 1USd and you get the picture.... PeMex got revenues of over 40 billion USD..... and most of that money is export.... Most of the companies in the top 25 get aprox 75% of their revenue from exportations.....

Meet the aspirations of its own people? If you study and get a competitive edge, sky is the limit here, as anywhere else in the world..... If you barely know how to read, life will be tough anywhere, tougher here. Well, tough almost anywhere, except the USA...
Revolution? *sigh* Yes, we should have a revolution, maybe adopt a kind of socialism that closes the insane gap between the rich and the poor..... but this is material for its own thread. As I said before, the situation is too complex to be oversimplified.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

[something or other that is illegal] are a negative against the US. If this was not the case it wouldn't be called illegal.

that's some rather crappy logic

The intent behind my statement was to illuminate the fact that if all of the swarms of uneducated illegal masses were good for this country (as some actually do believe), then the government would allow them to come in swarms and legalize it while theyr'e at it. Why has the government not done this? Because it doesn't like Mexicans? No, because it knows that it needs to do its best to fight the swell of illegal immigration.

And BTW perhaps I got off topic. I can't say whether Mexico is a parasite or not against the US. It may not be at all. My earlier writings were more in regards to illegal immigration, and since most of it does come from Mexico that is why I leaned in the parasite direction. So to clarify: Illegal immigrants are parasites.

 

[StageLeft]

alexruiz You say that we are living in the most braniwashed society. Quite unlikely considering we have access to more media and freedom of expression than the majority of the countries in the world (yours included). If somebody doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean theyre brainwashed. But, while we're on that topic you said:

We enjoy our life and our culture, and feel proud to be here even if we don't have as many luxuries -often unneded- ..... we are happy in our country, and try to make it better everyday..... that is something you couldn't understand.

My God man are you listening to yourself? MILLIONS of Mexicans are fleeing your country. Surely some like it, but a blanket statement like you just made is patently untrue. YOU may be trying to make Mexico better but millions of others have thrown in the towel.

 

[Stark]

Alex,

I guess I can't explain it any better. You (willingly?) fail to see the link between your president, Fox, who praises his citizens for illegally coming here (at a significant cost to the legal residents), because they send money home, and how mexico is acting as a "parasite."

If Mexico wasn't a third world country, this wouldn't be an issue. But it is, and like it or not, it has negative effects on it's neighbors.

You may feel satisfied knowing that the people in your country who live in poverty can come up here for some easy jobs.
I'd like to say the same for the people who live in my country.

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
alexruiz You say that we are living in the most braniwashed society. Quite unlikely considering we have access to more media and freedom of expression than the majority of the countries in the world (yours included). If somebody doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean theyre brainwashed. But, while we're on that topic you said:

We enjoy our life and our culture, and feel proud to be here even if we don't have as many luxuries -often unneded- ..... we are happy in our country, and try to make it better everyday..... that is something you couldn't understand.

My God man are you listening to yourself? MILLIONS of Mexicans are fleeing your country. Surely some like it, but a blanket statement like you just made is patently untrue. YOU may be trying to make Mexico better but millions of others have thrown in the towel.

You prove that you are brainwashed.... Have you EVER attempted to read a newspaper or watch news form Mexico?? do it and you'll get the answer yourself..... No, not univision or similar garbage, I mean TRUE news from the country..... try it. More media doesn't mean better, specially if the line is basically the same. Brainwashed means IGNORANCE, people that speak because they heard, but never witnessed..... people who believe someone who barely could speak in another country
for anything else that asking food and the bill...... Freedom of expression?? A joke, anyone saying something that could sound like a commie will be seen as enemy..... People have the prejudice against anything that sounds different. You could be a neonazi and be cool, or gay and be cool, but god bless if you are a commie...... I asked before if someone read the memories of "El Che" Guevara.... you know the answer.
I even challenge you to try to get any of his 2 books anywhere in the USA..... I tried and I was unsucessful, not to mention the look I got from the person at the counter in B&N... everyone gets scared just by hearing a word that can be linked to a commie. Try it, prove me wrong. I'll give you and address in the USA where you can ship the book.

The millions that are leaving the country are the ones that have NO skills, as pointed by yourself... You said that you haven't found Mexicans in your field, correct? Where are all the people from Mexico that went to college? As you are aware, we have hundreds of universities..... so, where are all the graduates from those schools? No, most of them are not moving, the prospect of more money is not convincing enough for those who already got a decent life here..... More luxury, far from my culture, crappy food, living in debt because I bought things that I don't own, taking the risk of suffering discrimination..... no thanks. The country needs people to work, and fortunately most of the skilled people are staying here...... So you prove my point.
You are Canadian, aren't you? Why did you move? why? You know the answer.....

A country that has the 12th largest economy in the world, great natural resources, one of the richest cultures in the world and an educational system that with more money could be world-class surely offers hope for the people who have the guts to try to be better, get skilled and go to school..... We have our share of problems, we need to get rid of a lot of things, we still have some cultural baggage, but we surely are going forward..... and we acknowledge that there are problems and need to be fixed, unlike the ones that think everything is OK....

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: Stark
Alex,

I guess I can't explain it any better. You (willingly?) fail to see the link between your president, Fox, who praises his citizens for illegally coming here (at a significant cost to the legal residents), because they send money home, and how mexico is acting as a "parasite."

If Mexico wasn't a third world country, this wouldn't be an issue. But it is, and like it or not, it has negative effects on it's neighbors.

You may feel satisfied knowing that the people in your country who live in poverty can come up here for some easy jobs.
I'd like to say the same for the people who live in my country.

Well you touched it, don't regret it. Fox's agenda is about opening borders to allow people to cross and work LEGALLY. that is the core of his agenda. I'll get you a direct quote of his plan. His agenda also asks for legalization of the ones already illegally in the USA... any president anywhere would try to see for his/her citizens abroad, specially if they are leaving beacuse of the lack of opportunities for them... the official praise comes as word of hope for the ones far way, so they know that they are still in the view of the goverment (paternalistic IMO but oh well)
If the people who want to work get legal permision, say bye by illegal immigrants. Makes sense? Why hasn't he agenda gone through? Ask it to your govement. Vicente Fox only wants to get the same treatment to Mexican citizens that Canadians get (same requirements for TN visas and other NAFTA treaties). Did you know it? If you didn't, the media in the USA is not painting the whole truth, or Fox is not very skilled in english when negotiating.... (but he attende Harvard, so he should be good. shouldn't he?)
Do illegals cause problems? YEs, they DO! However, to be considered parasites is waaay overboard. The money they get in exchange of a work done, this is the key here. Why doesn't anyone mention all the other implications if there were no illegals in the USA.... come on, bring us also that data.
Anyway, even if our illegals are parasites, it doesn't mean MEXICo is a parasite, so the poll is still flawed.

Personal experience: I saw in a city in the USA (bad neiborghood) how people stay in the houses porches doing nothing. I was driving with very low gas so I had to go into the streets (stupid of me). Paying at the pump (paying inside scared me) I even overheard someone saying that she was going to get pregnant again because the welfare was higher...... she never mentioned about trying to get a job and she looked healthy. So, not all of them are willing to get those jobs.

The picture is not black and white, there are several of shades of gray in between, but many people fail to see it.


Alex

 

[thereaderrabbit]

Stark-
A) Jacka$$ =================================:
B) Idiot ==================================:
C) Punk =================:
...

Companies in the US exploit Mexico, the Mexican governments exploits... Symbiotic may be too simple, but what offends me is that while Mexico may be listed as 'parasitic', no option represents the opposite viewpoint. Stark, you truly signify a bit of 'D) All of the above'.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SkoorbThe intent behind my statement was to illuminate the fact that if all of the swarms of uneducated illegal masses were good for this country (as some actually do believe), then the government would allow them to come in swarms and legalize it while theyr'e at it. Why has the government not done this? Because it doesn't like Mexicans? No, because it knows that it needs to do its best to fight the swell of illegal immigration.

And BTW perhaps I got off topic. I can't say whether Mexico is a parasite or not against the US. It may not be at all. My earlier writings were more in regards to illegal immigration, and since most of it does come from Mexico that is why I leaned in the parasite direction. So to clarify: Illegal immigrants are parasites.

now you're claiming the gov't is doing something because the gov't is right and good. again, good argument.

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: thereaderrabbit
Stark-
A) Jacka$$ =================================:
B) Idiot ==================================:
C) Punk =================:
...

Companies in the US exploit Mexico, the Mexican governments exploits... Symbiotic may be too simple, but what offends me is that while Mexico may be listed as 'parasitic', no option represents the opposite viewpoint. Stark, you truly signify a bit of 'D) All of the above'.

Thanks, I'm glad you've accepted me into your club.

Let's look at your own thought process, shall we?

US Companies vs Mexican Gov't/President

Now I may have forgotten something, but I don't recall ever electing the CEO of any company that deals with Mexico. I'm pretty sure that the Mexican people, however, elect their leaders (Fox).

Note the title... is Mexico (the country) a parasite on the USA (the country)?

My argument is that by encouraging illegal migration northward in hopes it will recieve money sent back into its borders, and that these immigrants harm the US economy more than they benefit it, that Mexico is, by definition, engaging in parasitic behavior.

Heck, even Alex Ruiz says that the people that are coming here are the dregs who can't find work in Mexico. He seems content in the knowledge that they're not his country's problem anymore.

 

[thereaderrabbit]

New membership in my club is always a good thing, but...

No, that's not my thought process. Not even close. I was making clear that there are numerous factors involved. Companies are just one of them, but here in the States companies have HUGE influence. More so than the electorate these days.

If the US wasn't here do you think Mexico would slip beneath the sea? I feel that we *might* be the ones negatively influencing them.

Most jobs these people do aren't ones Americans are willing to do (the pain and lack of money involved). These workers allow corporations and farmers to keep prices down and unions out of the way. If we had unions along with the higher prices they would bring, do you think we would be as competitive with third world farmers/agriculture?

I'm offended at how your poll attempts to oversimplify and seemingly place blame. If we didn't offer them jobs, they wouldn't be here. And you and I have little say in this unless we can afford lobbyists.

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: thereaderrabbit
New membership in my club is always a good thing, but...

No, that's not my thought process. Not even close. I was making clear that there are numerous factors involved. Companies are just one of them, but here in the States companies have HUGE influence. More so than the electorate these days.

If the US wasn't here do you think Mexico would slip beneath the sea? I feel that we *might* be the ones negatively influencing them.

Most jobs these people do aren't ones Americans are willing to do (the pain and lack of money involved). These workers allow corporations and farmers to keep prices down and unions out of the way. If we had unions along with the higher prices they would bring, do you think we would be as competitive with third world farmers/agriculture?

I'm offended at how your poll attempts to oversimplify and seemingly place blame. If we didn't offer them jobs, they wouldn't be here. And you and I have little say in this unless we can afford lobbyists.

If we've been a negative influence on another countries in this hemisphere, I don't think Mexico even cracks the top 5.

The argument that illegal workers help keep prices down and unions out of the way to be competetive with third world countries fails to take into account that we don't have to pay for education and health insurance for workers IN third world countries. In the US, we shift that burden from companies who hire the workers to joe average taxpayer.

 

[waylman]

Originally posted by: Stark

Originally posted by: thereaderrabbit
New membership in my club is always a good thing, but...

No, that's not my thought process. Not even close. I was making clear that there are numerous factors involved. Companies are just one of them, but here in the States companies have HUGE influence. More so than the electorate these days.

If the US wasn't here do you think Mexico would slip beneath the sea? I feel that we *might* be the ones negatively influencing them.

Most jobs these people do aren't ones Americans are willing to do (the pain and lack of money involved). These workers allow corporations and farmers to keep prices down and unions out of the way. If we had unions along with the higher prices they would bring, do you think we would be as competitive with third world farmers/agriculture?

I'm offended at how your poll attempts to oversimplify and seemingly place blame. If we didn't offer them jobs, they wouldn't be here. And you and I have little say in this unless we can afford lobbyists.

If we've been a negative influence on another countries in this hemisphere, I don't think Mexico even cracks the top 5.

The argument that illegal workers help keep prices down and unions out of the way to be competetive with third world countries fails to take into account that we don't have to pay for education and health insurance for workers IN third world countries. In the US, we shift that burden from companies who hire the workers to joe average taxpayer.

stop bumping your own thread with arguments we've already heard attention whore.

 

[BamBam215]

I don't know if this is only in S. California, but try driving by a UHaul company. The only people you see in front waiting for hard labor work (lifting your moving boxes) on a hot summer day are Mexicans. How about those that sell flowers and fruits on the streets? Only Mexicans. A lot of Mexicans are poverish but they are the only one I see doing something about it. How many poverished Black, Whites, Asians, etc. do you see doing what Mexicans do to get by? Most of us if unemployed, would never ever try to sell flowers on the side of a road. Our dignity and ego is too great of a concern than survival.

Maybe you should change the title to "Are lazy Americans (in general, not any specific race) a parasite on the U.S?"