Is it time for the left to take a look at its own hateful rhetoric?

[zinfamous]

I think you are forgetting quit a bit of the leftist groups that espouse violence and have used it in the past. I think they are very statistically significant, and we don't even have to go to Europe, the bastion of violent liberalism to get significant. Just because the right is pro-gun does not make them more violent.

The far left has:
Black Panthers and their ilk
Earth Liberation Front
Unions
Anti-Globalists
Anarchists

The far right has:
Militias
One or two abortion clinic bomber
KKK and their ilk

fair enough.

The top two don't really exist anymore and unions aren't exactly the violent threat that they used to be. Well, those that were essentially run by organized crime.

parsing down abortion clinic bombers to "one or two" is rather disingenuous, however. the point is that such people are created by larger movements. In this case, ultra-right fundy Christians. Otherwise, I would simply mention the one or two Union blokes that has actually concreted a stooly.

 

[Harvey]

The far left has:...

Black Panthers and their ilk

They're not much of a threat since THE Black Panthers were disbanded in the 70's.

While part of the organization was already participating in local government and social services, another group was in constant conflict with the police. For some of the Party's supporters, the separation between political action, criminal activity, social services, access to power, and grass-roots identity became confusing and contradictory as the Panthers' political momentum was bogged down in the criminal justice system. Disagreements among the Party's leaders over how to confront these challenges led to a significant split in the Party. Some Panther leaders, such as Huey Newton and David Hilliard, favored a focus on community service coupled with self-defense; others, such as Eldridge Cleaver, embraced a more confrontational strategy. Eldridge Cleaver deepened the inevitable schism in the party when he publicly criticized the Party for adopting a "reformist" rather than "revolutionary" agenda and called for Hilliard's removal. Cleaver was expelled from the Central Committee but went on to lead a splinter group, the Black Liberation Army, which had previously existed as an underground paramilitary wing of the Party.

The Party eventually fell apart due to rising legal costs and internal disputes. In 1974, Huey Newton appointed Elaine Brown as the first Chairwoman of the Party. Under Brown's leadership, the Party became involved in organizing for more radical electoral campaigns, including Brown's 1975 unsuccessful run for Oakland City Council and Lionel Wilson's successful election as the first Black mayor of Oakland. Although many scholars and activists date the Party's downfall before Brown became the leader, an increasingly smaller cadre continued to exist well into the late 1970s.[49]

In addition to changing the Party's direction towards more involvement in the electoral arena, Brown also increased the influence of women Panthers by placing them in more visible roles within the male-dominated organization. Brown's attempt to battle this previously pervasive sexism within the Party was very stressful for her and led to her dependence on Thorazine as a way to escape the pressures of leading the Party.

In 1977, after Newton returned from Cuba and ordered the beating of a woman Panther who organized many of the Party's social programs, Brown decided she needed a break and left the Party

If you mean the "NEW" Black Panther Party, you're talking about three black jackasses in camos trying to cause a scene in one election. What they were doing is wrong, but nobody was shooting, and nobody took them seriously once their cover was blown.

In 1989, a group calling itself the "New Black Panther Party" was formed in Dallas, Texas. Ten years later, the NBPP became home to many former Nation of Islam members when the chairmanship was taken by Khalid Abdul Muhammad.

The Anti-Defamation League and The Southern Poverty Law Center consider the New Black Panthers as a hate group. Members of the original Black Panther Party have insisted that this New Black Panther Party is illegitimate and have strongly objected that there "is no new Black Panther Party".

Earth Liberation Front

Definitely illegal and definitely not friendly. Are you saying that violent actions of this group somehow justifies violence by right wingnuts?

Unions

Care to be a LITTLE more specific. Unions were formed as a bargaining counterpoint to the dictatorial power held by corporate management. Unions are the reason laws against abusive child labor and sweat shop working conditions. The extent they are ignored by corporate management, today, is part of what brought us multiple environmental disasters from BP, Massey Energy and many others.

Anti-Globalists

WTF is an "anti-globalist," other than a meaningless catchall label to hang on any person or group with whom you disagree?

Anarchists

You've got to be joking.

The far left has:...
Militias
One or two abortion clinic bomber
KKK and their ilk

You forgot a few:

Glenn Beck
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
Sean Hannity
The Westboro Baptist Church

That list could be extended for pages, and all of that short list have advocated direct action against the targets of their bigotry, hate.

Search the forums for Fear No Evil's posts to see prime examples in his multitude of uninformed, hateful, bigoted posts. :thumbsdown:

 

[Jhhnn]

Examples of "dangerous rhetoric being spouted" please.

Did you hear crickets? I thought I heard crickets, but it was hard to tell over all the usual empty raving and false attribution...

 

[zinfamous]

You forgot a few:

Glenn Beck
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
Sean Hannity
The Westboro Baptist Church

That list could be extended for pages, and all of that short list have advocated direct action against the targets of their bigotry, hate.

Search the forums for Fear No Evil's posts to see prime examples in his multitude of uninformed, hateful, bigoted posts. :thumbsdown:

I think it's difficult to string the Westboro Baptist Church into the far right. Sure, their fundy religious rhetoric makes them sound like an obvious right-wing splinter group, but they're extremely anti-war to the degree that they are anti-soldier.

I think they are in whatever category this Discovery Channel guy is in. :\

Also, you shouldn't completely ignore a lot of the crime that came from the big Union bosses of the 50s and 60s, particularly the waterfront unions.

See: On the Waterfront (Kazan's flick actually lead to a lot of real reform)
and The Wire season 2.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think it's difficult to string the Westboro Baptist Church into the far right. Sure, their fundy religious rhetoric makes them sound like an obvious right-wing splinter group, but they're extremely anti-war to the degree that they are anti-soldier.

I don't think that's correct. They showed up at military funerals to protest the military's don't ask don't tell policy wrt gays and not for any other reason, iirc...

Dragging out union practices from 60 years ago isn't really reasonable, either. Nobody mentioned Ludlow or a multitude of other criminal and murderous anti union activities. Heck- nobody even mentioned WalMart's notoriously scurrilous modern actions in that regard...

 

[zinfamous]

I don't think that's correct. They showed up at military funerals to protest the military's don't ask don't tell policy wrt gays and not for any other reason, iirc...

Dragging out union practices from 60 years ago isn't really reasonable, either. Nobody mentioned Ludlow or a multitude of other criminal and murderous anti union activities. Heck- nobody even mentioned WalMart's notoriously scurrilous modern actions in that regard...

again...fair enough I mention the somewhat outdated union business simply b/c the time period that Harvey is referring to as the good things that Unions brought to us is the same time period where a lot of very, very bad Union business could be found.

I seem to remember many of WBC signs at the funeral protest, or at least I interpreted them so, as saying things like "God hates the US" "War is Evil" (well, maybe not that un-controversial).

I didn't realize that the root of their protest was regarding don't ask don't tell. So, are you telling me that WBC is all for treating the gays equally in the military? :hmm:

 

[Infohawk]

A) Science tells us that the globe is warming. Science doesn't tell us to kill excess population. Science isn't in the ethics business. Science does not profess to have all the answers. This is as compared to religion that generally presents itself as a complete system of thought and ethical system. Therefore, science cannot be blamed for discovery bomber. Religions, however, need to take a look at what is done in their name since they profess to be absolute and complete bodies of knowledge.
B) The left, including on this board, are just as angry as the right. Outrage over outrage = outrage.

 

[werepossum]

Having read the Discovery Channel bomber's demands, I don't most of us would classify him as either left or right. He had his own "environmental" agenda-basically along the lines of humans are evil, get rid of humans to save the planet. Last I knew being anti-human being was not a leftist doctrine although FNW would probably like to claim it is.

He also had an anchor baby rant which is straight out of the tea party camp-and as such may have been influenced by the vast amount of tea party bile that has been so public recently.

Personally I'd classify him as a deeply anti-social nutjob to whom politics were essentially irrelevant.
Last I knew being anti-human being was not a leftist doctrine although FNW would probably like to claim it is.

Dude, that is so intellectually dishonest. The guy's obviously a leftist, as all his positions (except illegal immigration) are standard leftist positions. We're destroying the Earth, there are too many humans, we have to control the population - those are all common leftist positions. Algore, the consummate leftwing guru, was even his inspiration, and Lord knows Algore has not a single opinion that isn't far left.

Global warming is a scientific hypothesis or theory. And its stupid to cite Gore as he may be a pied piper of global warming but never the science behind global warming.
But at the end of the day, there is no love or hate in a scientific hypothesis, just a lot of debate as both sides debate while the final scientific proof remains incomplete as the science research is ongoing.

And as Red Dawn points out the guy was off his rocker, if he had not chosen to be obsessed over global warming he would have picked some other cause like flat earthing or something.

THIS I can agree with, but it's a fact that the left and the mainstream media (but I repeat myself) constantly harp on every nutjob as being influenced by "hate speech" on the right, even the ones like this that end up being leftwingers. Pointing out the hypocrisy here is valid; saddling those on the left with this nutjob's actions is not valid. Had things gone differently in his life this guy might well have ended up kidnapping John Stossil and demanding an end to government regulation of Expresso machines. Crazy is crazy.

SNIP Outrage over outrage = outrage.

LOL I like that, succinct, clever and true.

 

[werepossum]

again...fair enough I mention the somewhat outdated union business simply b/c the time period that Harvey is referring to as the good things that Unions brought to us is the same time period where a lot of very, very bad Union business could be found.

I seem to remember many of WBC signs at the funeral protest, or at least I interpreted them so, as saying things like "God hates the US" "War is Evil" (well, maybe not that un-controversial).

I didn't realize that the root of their protest was regarding don't ask don't tell. So, are you telling me that WBC is all for treating the gays equally in the military? :hmm:

For what it's worth I'm a right winger (mostly, I am pro gay marriage and have a host of other positions that make me unpopular on right wing forums) and I consider the WBC as right wingers. Rabid, far right wingers (like the Weather Underground was far left wing) but still identifiably right wing. The hating of homosexuals is identifiably right wing even if present in some left wingers and not present in all (or even most) right wingers. In this case they are saying "G-d hates the USA" because we don't sufficiently oppress homosexuals - basically, that if you don't actively root out the evil homos (don't ask, don't tell) then G-d will punish you and kill your soldiers. (Of course, by this standard Iranian soldiers should never die in battle, and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard should all be immortal. Being right wing does not import intelligence or judgment.)

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

And as Red Dawn points out the guy was off his rocker, if he had not chosen to be obsessed over global warming he would have picked some other cause like flat earthing or something.

Something like this guy?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2100538&highlight=cab+driver

I really don't see much difference between how both sides handle the loonies. Many (not all) choose to apply one standard for themselves, but something else for another.

It's like a cornucopia of ignorance.

 

[CPA]

fair enough.

The top two don't really exist anymore and unions aren't exactly the violent threat that they used to be. Well, those that were essentially run by organized crime.

parsing down abortion clinic bombers to "one or two" is rather disingenuous, however. the point is that such people are created by larger movements. In this case, ultra-right fundy Christians. Otherwise, I would simply mention the one or two Union blokes that has actually concreted a stooly.

There are several socialist african-american groups out there that advocate violence as a means to their ends. Of course, they are not as well organized or as large. ELF is still around and admitted to a wave of vandalism in California just a couple years ago. And unions were still beating up people in the late 90s, early 2000's particularly in New York as their hold on the waste industry was coming to an end.

I don't think abortion clinic bombers are out there in high numbers, but who knows. However, if you are going to say that the few abortion clinic bombers are created by the larger ultra-right fundy Christian movement, then I contend that ELF and others like them have been created by the larger ultra-left global warming/climate care movement, which is the OP's argument.

 

[CPA]

Black Panthers and their ilk

They're not much of a threat since THE Black Panthers were disbanded in the 70's.



If you mean the "NEW" Black Panther Party, you're talking about three black jackasses in camos trying to cause a scene in one election. What they were doing is wrong, but nobody was shooting, and nobody took them seriously once their cover was blown.



Earth Liberation Front

Definitely illegal and definitely not friendly. Are you saying that violent actions of this group somehow justifies violence by right wingnuts?

Unions

Care to be a LITTLE more specific. Unions were formed as a bargaining counterpoint to the dictatorial power held by corporate management. Unions are the reason laws against abusive child labor and sweat shop working conditions. The extent they are ignored by corporate management, today, is part of what brought us multiple environmental disasters from BP, Massey Energy and many others.

Anti-Globalists

WTF is an "anti-globalist," other than a meaningless catchall label to hang on any person or group with whom you disagree?

Anarchists

You've got to be joking.



You forgot a few:

Glenn Beck
Rush Limbaugh
Bill O'Reilly
Sean Hannity
The Westboro Baptist Church

That list could be extended for pages, and all of that short list have advocated direct action against the targets of their bigotry, hate.

Search the forums for Fear No Evil's posts to see prime examples in his multitude of uninformed, hateful, bigoted posts. :thumbsdown:

Are you kidding me Harvey, you want me to ignore leftist Anarchists and anti-Capitalists (Globalist was the wrong terminology, but don't tell me you don't know who these are, just check out a G-8 Summit), but include Beck, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Hannity as sources of violence. lolololol...

 

[Harvey]

Are you kidding me Harvey, you want me to ignore leftist Anarchists and anti-Capitalists (Globalist was the wrong terminology, but don't tell me you don't know who these are, just check out a G-8 Summit), but include Beck, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Hannity as sources of violence. lolololol...

I'm pretty good at reading, but I had no way of knowing what you meant by "Globalist." I still have no idea what you mean by "Anarchists" and "anti-Capitalists" as defined groups organized for the purpose of spewing hate and bigotry and advocating and committing acts of violence against our government and individuals with whom they disagree.

Got names, dates, places and any history of such nefarious organized group actions?

 

[manimal]

I'm pretty good at reading, but I had no way of knowing what you meant by "Globalist." I still have no idea what you mean by "Anarchists" and "anti-Capitalists" as defined groups organized for the purpose of spewing hate and bigotry and advocating and committing acts of violence against our government and individuals with whom they disagree.

Got names, dates, places and any history of such nefarious organized group actions?

You cant expect facts to get in the way of the argument can you?


I like the term globalist.. I think I may name my next dog globalist..

 

[TehMac]

its time for the Left to gtfo because it's clear normal Americans who aren't a bunch of introverted perverts are tired of them more than any other political faction.

 

[manimal]

its time for the Left to gtfo because it's clear normal Americans who aren't a bunch of introverted perverts are tired of them more than any other political faction.

Its time for all sides to veer back into the realm of reality and facts.....


What quantifies a " Normal American" ? and what does "Introverted perverts" mean?

Again moral equivalency and eye for eye has led to many blind people pointing at shadows....

 

[werepossum]

I'm pretty good at reading, but I had no way of knowing what you meant by "Globalist." I still have no idea what you mean by "Anarchists" and "anti-Capitalists" as defined groups organized for the purpose of spewing hate and bigotry and advocating and committing acts of violence against our government and individuals with whom they disagree.

Got names, dates, places and any history of such nefarious organized group actions?

You have GOT to be joking! These clowns show up at EVERY meeting of the G8, World Bank, or any other major global economic organization in EVERY country, and protest, which inevitably involves violence, looting, burning automobiles, etc. (Contrast that with the level of violence at Tea Parties, which is none.)

No way in hell do I believe you honestly don't know that.

 

[nick1985]

If this guy was a tea party activist the news would have been all over this story like flies on shit.

Since he was a left-wing environmentalist that looked up to Al Gore, hardly a word was said about it by the mainstream media.


Double standard

 

[sandorski]

Examples of "dangerous rhetoric being spouted" please.

this

 

[zsdersw]

If this guy was a tea party activist the news would have been all over this story like flies on shit.

Since he was a left-wing environmentalist that looked up to Al Gore, hardly a word was said about it by the mainstream media.


Double standard

The Discovery channel attacker situation was the top story on CNN's website when it happened.

 

[Jhhnn]

You have GOT to be joking! These clowns show up at EVERY meeting of the G8, World Bank, or any other major global economic organization in EVERY country, and protest, which inevitably involves violence, looting, burning automobiles, etc. (Contrast that with the level of violence at Tea Parties, which is none.)

No way in hell do I believe you honestly don't know that.

That's it? That's all you've got?

Have we seen any of what honest people would refer to as the "Mainstream Left" supporting this band of crazies? Does their leadership get interviews on national TV? Do they get major funding from so-called "Leftist" foundations? Have Democrats attempted to claim them as their own, fold them into the larger organization? Do they have any credibility among progressives in general?

The answers are no, no, no, no & no. They're not just disowned, they're disallowed, because they never belonged enough to be disowned.

If we were talking about the Tea Party, the answers would be entirely opposite, and they are very much the spawn of the larger organization and the financiers of it.

The basic premise of this thread is based on false attribution, on assuming facts not in evidence, then extrapolating from there. Standard Operating Procedure for the Right, and it has been for 30 years.

 

[Fear No Evil]

That's it? That's all you've got?

Have we seen any of what honest people would refer to as the "Mainstream Left" supporting this band of crazies? Does their leadership get interviews on national TV? Do they get major funding from so-called "Leftist" foundations? Have Democrats attempted to claim them as their own, fold them into the larger organization? Do they have any credibility among progressives in general?

The answers are no, no, no, no & no. They're not just disowned, they're disallowed, because they never belonged enough to be disowned.

If we were talking about the Tea Party, the answers would be entirely opposite, and they are very much the spawn of the larger organization and the financiers of it.

The basic premise of this thread is based on false attribution, on assuming facts not in evidence, then extrapolating from there. Standard Operating Procedure for the Right, and it has been for 30 years.

Except the Tea Party isn't producing people who strap bombs to themselves and take hostages.. the modern day liberal environmental movement IS.. Of course the mainstream left doesn't SUPPORT actions like the Discovery Channel bomber, but they certainly are an accessory to it with the hateful rhetoric being spewed with end of the world scenarios thrown in for good measure.

The basic premise of this thread is absolutely NOT false.. The left DOES need to start looking at its rhetoric.. its producing crazies at a rate much higher than the Tea Party is.. hell, the Tea Party might be the most boring political party in history yet the left continues to try to claim they are a bunch of radicals. I guess if cleaning up after yourself after a rally is radical then they are guilty as charged.

 

[zsdersw]

The left DOES need to start looking at its rhetoric..

So too does the right.

 

[Fear No Evil]

So too does the right.

It already has. Its been put out on every major news organization on the planet. While the left wing shit that produces people strapping bombs to themselves gets no attention at all.

The amount of violence coming out of the left in the name of enviromental causes seems to be climbing at an alarming rate. While we keep being told that the Tea Party is going to kill every minority person around we never see it. It seems the people who tend to act out on their violence tend to be extreme left leaning people.. a lot of whom seem to read Al Gore's book's for some reason.

 

[brencat]

that's the point. The truly crazy that shout such language are generally much more of a threat. The truly crazy that come out of a crowd that says "Save the whales! End this war!" tend to be less dangerous.

Right...less dangerous. Like when years of anti-war rhetoric pulls us out of Vietnam when we were finally getting the upper hand there, ultimately leading to the death of millions and brutal "reeducation" of others as the Communists rolled in.