Is it overkill?

[TemjinGold]

How is something I'm not using being wasted ?

That 370 is from the wall, meaning your system only draws about 300 or so watts. In other words, at full load, you are coming in at below 40% of your unit. Had you gotten a good 550-600 watt unit, you would be pulling less than 370 from the wall and the unit itself would've cost you a lot less.

 

[Diogenes2]

I have the power supply I want, at a price I can afford ..

Are you sure your GTX 580 isn't overkill ?

 

[General Kenobi]

A GTX 580 can be utilized effectively for a variety of tasks, whereas an overpowered PSU can't be, not unless your power usage increases to match its capabilities.

 

[TemjinGold]

I have the power supply I want, at a price I can afford ..

Are you sure your GTX 580 isn't overkill ?

I didn't mean to upset you or anything. You pointed out that you saved some power switching. I pointed out you would've saved more if you sized the PSU appropriately. I really couldn't care less how you choose to spend your money. We happen to be on the topic of waste, is all.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Because you pay for it with money and other possible things such as physical size/weight and noise.

If I never take my Ferrari out of my garage, would you also say that’s not wasted because it’s not being used?

I sure JonnyGURU would have a few thinmgs to say about all this.....

As it is.....how much would you say money is being wasted in say lost efficiency ?

$1.50 a year.........hardly worth sneezing about...even if it is more iots nowhere over 5-10 dollars a year.......but hey efficiency is efficiency...unless of course U want that Antec 1500watt PSU.......

 

[Diogenes2]

A GTX 580 can be utilized effectively for a variety of tasks, whereas an overpowered PSU can't be, not unless your power usage increases to match its capabilities.

Got it.

Note to self:

Extra power available from power supply is not being used, until you use it.

 

[General Kenobi]

Hey, if you want to have an excessively powerful PSU for your system, that's your call. I would have bought something less powerful and pocketed the difference.

 

[TemjinGold]

Got it.

Note to self:

Extra power available from power supply is not being used, until you use it.

You don't seem to get it. No one is disputing that the 850 - 370 = 480 watts your unit has left over isn't being used or wasted. The issue with waste is a 850watter needs to pull 370 watts to power your system wheres a 550watter would pull less than 370 watts to power your same system because the load is more efficient on the smaller unit. THAT's where your waste is.

No, it's not a lot of money in waste power. The waste comes from the fact that an 850watter costs quite a bit more than a 550watter AND you are using more power from the wall to power the same rig. You basically paid more for something that works less efficiently.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You don't seem to get it. No one is disputing that the 850 - 370 = 480 watts your unit has left over isn't being used or wasted. The issue with waste is a 850watter needs to pull 370 watts to power your system wheres a 550watter would pull less than 370 watts to power your same system because the load is more efficient on the smaller unit. THAT's where your waste is.

No, it's not a lot of money in waste power. The waste comes from the fact that an 850watter costs quite a bit more than a 550watter AND you are using more power from the wall to power the same rig. You basically paid more for something that works less efficiently.

Nah...sorry...thats a strawman argument wioth no basis in fact....

 

[gramboh]

Nah...sorry...thats a strawman argument wioth no basis in fact....

It's not a strawman, he was just replying to the wrong person (should have been to diogenes2).

And Temjin is bang on in that post. The only way it is not a waste/overkill is if the value (to him) of having headroom for future upgrades offsets the additional upfront cost and additional energy used due to less efficiency.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Please show me from a reputable souce such as JonnyGURU or several others who actually know what thei talking about that what Temjin is claiming is not pure BS......Links would help...

 

[Magic Carpet]

You don't seem to get it. No one is disputing that the 850 - 370 = 480 watts your unit has left over isn't being used or wasted. The issue with waste is a 850watter needs to pull 370 watts to power your system wheres a 550watter would pull less than 370 watts to power your same system because the load is more efficient on the smaller unit. THAT's where your waste is.

No, it's not a lot of money in waste power. The waste comes from the fact that an 850watter costs quite a bit more than a 550watter AND you are using more power from the wall to power the same rig. You basically paid more for something that works less efficiently.

+1 Agreed.

 

[TemjinGold]

Please show me from a reputable souce such as JonnyGURU or several others who actually know what thei talking about that what Temjin is claiming is not pure BS......Links would help...

Let me spell it out: I acknowledged that the energy savings either way is negligible. The real issue of waste is that a decent 850watter costs roughly 2x the price of a decent 550watter or more. Can I find a 500 or so watt unit that will be more efficient than an 850 at the same load? Easily. Will that difference be enough to be concerned about? Probably not.

The point is, by buying the bigger unit unnecessarily, there is indeed waste there. Someone who buys an 850watter when a 550 will more than suffice is paying much more than they need to and getting almost nothing in return. If you think that's total BS, I don't know what to tell you...

 

[gramboh]

The point is, by buying the bigger unit unnecessarily, there is indeed waste there. Someone who buys an 850watter when a 550 will more than suffice is paying much more than they need to and getting almost nothing in return. If you think that's total BS, I don't know what to tell you...

Yep, this. Unless a consumer finds enough value in the extra wattage for future upgrades to offset the upfront cost (high unlikely, especially given time value of money).

Not sure what Jonnyguru has to do with this argument? It's economics. JEDI is trying to appeal to authority.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Yep, this. Unless a consumer finds enough value in the extra wattage for future upgrades to offset the upfront cost (high unlikely, especially given time value of money).

Not sure what Jonnyguru has to do with this argument? It's economics. JEDI is trying to appeal to authority.-- then perhaps you didn`t see where JonnyGURU said previously --If you can get it for a good price, who cares? A PSU only puts out for whatever the load is.

It makes no sense at all that it would take more power from the wall to paower a larger PSI.......sorry!

So far what I see is conjecture and no absolute proof!
Proof being links to articles...etc..

Proof is not opinion!

 

[BFG10K]

I sure JonnyGURU would have a few thinmgs to say about all this.....

I'm sure he would, but how about you try formulating your own arguments for a change?

As it is.....how much would you say money is being wasted in say lost efficiency ?

Again, the dollar value was never called into question. The point is that an overkill PSU can have negative aspects to a user even if they never use those extra watts.

So far what I see is conjecture and no absolute proof!
Proof being links to articles...etc..

You want proof of what exactly? That PSUs are generally most efficient at 50%, or that a large capacity PSU generally costs more than a low capacity PSU from the same line?

Let's try something simple: if I spend an extra $100 on a 1000W PSU instead of a 500W PSU (same product line) for a rig that tops out at 250W, you do understand I've meaninglessly spent $100?

 

[TemjinGold]

Apparently, he wants proof that the 1000w unit actually costs more than the 500w because that's my opinion. Anyway, whatever I've wasted enough time on this nonsense. If Yoda wants to buy that 1200w unit for a 100w load machine, I really couldn't care less...

 

[JEDIYoda]

Actually your the one who was called out and called wrong!!

Off course the intial cost of the 100 watt PSU will be less that a 700watt or whatever....duh....

But for you to tell everybody without any proof such as links to back up your diatribe is just insane....

It takes more juice from the wall to power an 800 watt PSU..........than a 500 watt PSU......

Show me a link......

 

[Diogenes2]

You don't seem to get it. No one is disputing that the 850 - 370 = 480 watts your unit has left over isn't being used or wasted. The issue with waste is a 850watter needs to pull 370 watts to power your system wheres a 550watter would pull less than 370 watts to power your same system because the load is more efficient on the smaller unit. THAT's where your waste is.

No, it's not a lot of money in waste power. The waste comes from the fact that an 850watter costs quite a bit more than a 550watter AND you are using more power from the wall to power the same rig. You basically paid more for something that works less efficiently.

Which 550watt power supply that is more than 87 to 89% efficient from 20% to 100% load did you have in mind ?

 

[fffblackmage]

Which 550watt power supply that is more than 87 to 89% efficient from 20% to 100% load did you have in mind ?

Any 550W PSU with 80 PLUS Gold certification would fit that description.

 

[BFG10K]

It takes more juice from the wall to power an 800 watt PSU..........than a 500 watt PSU......
Show me a link......

Again, are you asking for proof that a PSU is most efficient or 50%, or are you asking for an explanation as to how that correlates to real-world power draw?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2624/3

That’s from a 900W PSU, and it shows the highest efficiency at roughly ~50%.

Now look at system1 above. With a power draw range of 90W-140W it’s obviously using a vastly overkill PSU of 900W, so efficiency is only 73% to 81%.

If they had a smaller PSU for system1 (say 300W), its efficiency would look more like system3's on the 900W unit (84%-89%). The power efficiency curve in the first image proves that.

System1 has a maximum load of 140W. Now take the best efficiency from system1 and system3:

140W DC @ 81% efficiency: = 173W AC.
140W DC @ 89% efficiency: = 157W AC.

That means system1 will use more AC power on the 900W unit than it would on a 300W unit at the same DC load, assuming everything else is equal.

The lower TDP may not mean much in monetary terms, but it impacts heat which in turn can impact noise, and that's something you hear every time your system is on. Also high wattage PSUs are often longer than normal, which can affect intake case fans at the bottom of the case.

Again, nobody's arguing against over-provisioning or cushioning for a PSU, but there’s a point where adding more watts is not only a waste of money and time, it’s actually detrimental in other areas.

 

[Diogenes2]

BFG10K,
I don't have a problem with anything you are saying, and actually backing up with real world examples.

Thanks for taking the time and effort..

 

[JEDIYoda]

Again, are you asking for proof that a PSU is most efficient or 50%, or are you asking for an explanation as to how that correlates to real-world power draw?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2624/3

That’s from a 900W PSU, and it shows the highest efficiency at roughly ~50%.

Now look at system1 above. With a power draw range of 90W-140W it’s obviously using a vastly overkill PSU of 900W, so efficiency is only 73% to 81%.

If they had a smaller PSU for system1 (say 300W), its efficiency would look more like system3's on the 900W unit (84%-89%). The power efficiency curve in the first image proves that.

System1 has a maximum load of 140W. Now take the best efficiency from system1 and system3:

140W DC @ 81% efficiency: = 173W AC.
140W DC @ 89% efficiency: = 157W AC.

That means system1 will use more AC power on the 900W unit than it would on a 300W unit at the same DC load, assuming everything else is equal.

The lower TDP may not mean much in monetary terms, but it impacts heat which in turn can impact noise, and that's something you hear every time your system is on. Also high wattage PSUs are often longer than normal, which can affect intake case fans at the bottom of the case.

Again, nobody's arguing against over-provisioning or cushioning for a PSU, but there’s a point where adding more watts is not only a waste of money and time, it’s actually detrimental in other areas.

Finally somebody posted proof........yet even with proof we all know that the from the wall to the power the PSU is not that much money over the course of a year.....

Thanks for the graph!! Very nice!!

 

[BFG10K]

yet even with proof we all know that the from the wall to the power the PSU is not that much money over the course of a year.....

I already covered this point:

The lower TDP may not mean much in monetary terms, but it impacts heat which in turn can impact noise, and that's something you hear every time your system is on. Also high wattage PSUs are often longer than normal, which can affect intake case fans at the bottom of the case.

Here's another real-world example: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5524/silverstone-temjin-tj04e-devil-in-the-details/3

As mentioned before, cabling winds up being a bit more of an issue than you'll want it to be, but a large part of that is due to having used a 180mm power supply in our testbed instead of a 160mm one. By using a 180mm PSU, you can't route cables through the hole in the tray next to the PSU and the result is a messier cabling situation only compounded by the orientation of the hard drives and SSDs.

Like I said, it makes no sense to get a PSU that's overkill.

 

[VirtualLarry]

It takes more juice from the wall to power an 800 watt PSU..........than a 500 watt PSU......

Show me a link......

With a light load, yes, it does.

Are you telling me that you haven't learned this, from how many years on these forums?