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Is it illegal for government buildings to have christians things, during xmas.
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Amused
Elite Member
Actually, you are missing the meaning and intent. If the government endorses one religion over all others, it is in fact establishing that as a state religion. So yes, displaying religious icons in a religious context does violate the establishment clause... and the Supreme Court agrees.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
-- George Santayana
People like you are why people left Europe for America in the first place.
thehstrybean
Diamond Member
As does everyone else on AT....at least that's something we all agree on...
IT READS
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
By placing a nativity scene are there any laws?
Did congress enact a law to place the nativity?
Congress can not even write a law prohibiting the nativity 🙂
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Does the state or city by having a nativity scene stop others from worship?
The bottom line is that the first amendment does not provide for a complete chasim between church and state. It does not call for them to be seperate. The forefather knew that many of thoose who came to the new world did so to aviod persecution from the church and they felt that the church of england was not the answer to an individuals spiritual quest.
There are many ways that government has been intertwined into religion.
1. all branches of military have chaplins (paid employees that preach religion)
2. School vouchers has been constitutionally upheld even when going to faith based schools.
The premise of if the display is legal may come down to who paid for it. And for that even there has been no supreme court ruling on holiday displays. I for one think that the government should not be paying for holiday displays of anytype however if it was pout therte by the chamer of commererce or some other quasi-government group there should be no legal reason it can not be there because while the constituion does not allow the governemnt to establish a church it does not require that they ignore the church.
MrK6
Diamond Member
If you reread what I wrote and you'll see that none of what you said addresses my comments. However, to point out the major discrepancies, I'll do some quick quoting.
You said:
I had originally stated:
Now I agree with the first part of this paragraph:
You said:
I had originally stated:
Even bolded it to make it clearer 🙂. None of what you said pertained to my comment: this country is still largely "run by the Bible" and until governmental bodies, no matter at what level, rise to a higher level of intelligence, ability, and neutrality, we're still going to have these major issues. Furthermore, I stated:
Again bolded for easy reading, the keyword there is the "beginnings." Reading the First Amendment, intelligent members of society began to ponder, "wait, if the U.S. is supposed to be all encompassing and welcoming, we're not sending this message by having the government being religiously affiliated, whether it be official or not." Has this notion been enacted fully in the U.S.? Obviously, no, it has not. As I said, a truely effective government has no affiliations to ANYTHING beyond those political ideologies for which the majority party won its election with. Like other deviations from being completely neutral, religion ruins the effectiveness of a governing body.
Now I agree with the first part of this paragraph:
Exactly. However, even smaller bodies of government should pertain to the same rules as the higher/bigger ones. One cannot have different procedures for different governmental bodies or its just as big a mess, if not bigger, than it was before.
MrK6
Diamond Member
Actually no, effective leaders do not base their decisions on faith. They base it on research, probability, and outcome, not some abstract myth of a higher being. Part of the ability to govern well is to have the ability to leave personal opinions, ideologies, and faiths behind and to govern as effectively as possible to benefit everyone. For some reason you keep reading things that I simply do not see stated in my comments. Ideas dont magically pop into legislatures heads and they vote on them that day. Many laws take years and generations as ideas and concepts before they are thought to be right for law. You said yourself that Jefferson wanted to end slavery but ~75 years later Lincoln and Congress finally took that ideology and made it law (to a point, but I'm not going to sidetrack here). The beginnings are the seed of thought that will become an ideology and eventually make law. In the case of talking about separation of church and state, it is an ideology that began with the seed planted in the Constitution, and there have been legislature passed with it in mind. However, it still has aways to go and will eventually build up.
There's no reason why the states should have any less of an effective government than the federal government. The state governments still largely follow the basic framework of the federal government, and strong concepts, such as the separation of church and state, should be universally accepted no matter where. For some reason people miss the concept that religion is a personal virtue and anything personal should have nothing to do with a government of the PEOPLE.
There's no reason why the states should have any less of an effective government than the federal government. The state governments still largely follow the basic framework of the federal government, and strong concepts, such as the separation of church and state, should be universally accepted no matter where. For some reason people miss the concept that religion is a personal virtue and anything personal should have nothing to do with a government of the PEOPLE.
Amused
Elite Member
TM,
Morality does not require religion, and vice versa. Morality stems from self preservation and common sense.
I do not want to be murdered, nor does the majority, so we make murder illegal.
I do not want to be stolen from, nor does the majority, so we make theft and robbery illegal.
And so on...
No religion is required. Just because men used divine right to make, justofy and enforce laws in the past does not mean those laws required a god or gods to be thought up and implemented.
Finally you cite the tenth amendment without realizing the fourteenth amendment supersedes it, requiring the states to follow the rights and limitation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The state governments have the exact same limitations as the federal.
Morality does not require religion, and vice versa. Morality stems from self preservation and common sense.
I do not want to be murdered, nor does the majority, so we make murder illegal.
I do not want to be stolen from, nor does the majority, so we make theft and robbery illegal.
And so on...
No religion is required. Just because men used divine right to make, justofy and enforce laws in the past does not mean those laws required a god or gods to be thought up and implemented.
Finally you cite the tenth amendment without realizing the fourteenth amendment supersedes it, requiring the states to follow the rights and limitation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The state governments have the exact same limitations as the federal.
Fun thread!
Just a couple notes:
1.) First of all, government can not exist w/o morality. (How can you make laws without it? Something has to be right or wrong for a law to exist) The OP should realize that the majority of the morality in this country was derived from Judeo-Christian roots. i.e. Should it really be so shocking to see a nativity on Government property? ... "In God we trust" on our money etc.. even the ancient Medical symbol (with the snake) has roots from a brass serpent that Moses created... [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus] anyway, I am not here to make anyone do or think anything they don't want/like/agree with, but don't be shocked next time you are in a bar and someone orders a drink... <gasp> :beer:
2.) Also, in response to:
I also love this paradox. One thing I have been chewing on is this: If God is all-powerful how can the dimension of time have any effect on Him? i.e. For God to be God, then God has to be greater than time. If that is true, and God does not require time to exist, then He would have no beginning or end; because for something to begin or end requires the dimension of time. And again, God can't really be God if He requires anything other than himself to exist.
Just a couple notes:
1.) First of all, government can not exist w/o morality. (How can you make laws without it? Something has to be right or wrong for a law to exist) The OP should realize that the majority of the morality in this country was derived from Judeo-Christian roots. i.e. Should it really be so shocking to see a nativity on Government property? ... "In God we trust" on our money etc.. even the ancient Medical symbol (with the snake) has roots from a brass serpent that Moses created... [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus] anyway, I am not here to make anyone do or think anything they don't want/like/agree with, but don't be shocked next time you are in a bar and someone orders a drink... <gasp> :beer:
2.) Also, in response to:
I also love this paradox. One thing I have been chewing on is this: If God is all-powerful how can the dimension of time have any effect on Him? i.e. For God to be God, then God has to be greater than time. If that is true, and God does not require time to exist, then He would have no beginning or end; because for something to begin or end requires the dimension of time. And again, God can't really be God if He requires anything other than himself to exist.
MrCodeDude
Lifer
I think it's offensive not to have Christmas scenes on public land.
Yeah.
Yeah.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
If our ancestors fled Europe in the past because of people like me it would be because they despise a separation of church and state.
They actually left to flee religious persecution.
Statements like this
would qualify as such.
IAteYourMother
Lifer
what persecution?
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