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Is it illegal for government buildings to have christians things, during xmas.
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Legendary
Diamond Member
There are two differing Supreme Court rulings on this. The first, Lynch v. Donnelly (1983), link, says that nativity scenes are okay (did not violate the establishment clause).
In a later decision, Allegeny v. ACLU (1989), link, the Court ruled that a different nativity scene was not okay (in violation) due to the fact it also had a banner with a specific religious message "Gloria in Excelsis Deo" (Glory to God for the birth of Jesus Christ)
So it's impossible to answer your question without pictures and/or a detailed description. However, if it were in violation, not only would your city be stupid (and unable to navigate a simple law library) but they would also probably already be in court.
By the way, referencing Nazism will never help your case. Google Godwin.
Edit: "Separation of church and state" is taken from a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, the whole sentence being
Jefferson essentially wrote the Constitution, so there has always been a high correlation between the phrase "separation of church and state" and the Constitution.
2nd edit: My personal opinion is that, as a matter of law it may be illegal, but FFS it's the holiday season, get the stick out of your ass. I'm an atheist libertarian and even I don't give a crap.
In a later decision, Allegeny v. ACLU (1989), link, the Court ruled that a different nativity scene was not okay (in violation) due to the fact it also had a banner with a specific religious message "Gloria in Excelsis Deo" (Glory to God for the birth of Jesus Christ)
So it's impossible to answer your question without pictures and/or a detailed description. However, if it were in violation, not only would your city be stupid (and unable to navigate a simple law library) but they would also probably already be in court.
By the way, referencing Nazism will never help your case. Google Godwin.
Edit: "Separation of church and state" is taken from a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, the whole sentence being
Notice the quotation of the establishment clause
Jefferson essentially wrote the Constitution, so there has always been a high correlation between the phrase "separation of church and state" and the Constitution.
2nd edit: My personal opinion is that, as a matter of law it may be illegal, but FFS it's the holiday season, get the stick out of your ass. I'm an atheist libertarian and even I don't give a crap.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Read it again
Amused
Elite Member
Jefferson wasn't the only one to say it. Also, Jefferson was in France when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were produced. Although he helped mold the ideals, James Madison is actually the chief author of the First Amendment. (Jefferson was the author of the Declaration of Independence.)
Let's see what Madison had to say about it's meaning...
"The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State" (James Madison [author of the first amendment], 1819, Writings, 8:432).
"Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance" (James Madison, 1822, Writings, 9:101).
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" (James Madison, undated, William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555).
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." (James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, 1822)
We can plainly see that the First Amendment is intended to create a total separation of the church from the state, and vice-versa.
Which is the only logical way to maintain complete religious freedom. Governmental neutrality on matters of religion is essential to liberty.
But I do love seeing people try to rewrite/redefine Jefferson's Danbury Baptist letter. It's a hoot.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Saying they CANT have christian things would violate the 1st amendment.
Amused
Elite Member
But the first part says the government may not establish (endorse) a religion. Isn't government display of religious artifacts in a religious context, alone without any other religions represented an endorsement of said religion?
The Supreme Court says yes... and I would tend to agree.
theprodigalrebel
Lifer
I thought America is a secular country? One can put a crescent, a trident, six-point star or a cross outside their house - what the hell does it matter to you?
You are offended by turbans too? Hell, I don't mind punks with purple hair, red slacks and lime green t-shirts. I don't mind two dudes making out in public view - I just turn away. Heard of the expression, "To each their own"? But turbans is pushing their religion down to you? Muslim women wearing scarves offends you too?
It is anal people like you who think a few thousand muslim women wearing headscarves is a danger to your way of life and your freedom, or that a nativity scene is violating the 'separation of church and state' clause etc. etc.
Become a lawyer. Seriously. You can't understand a simple fact - America has a Christian majority and the government SHOULD do what they can to promote any festivities that spread cheer and joy. Hell, the government here promotes all religious festivals to maintain peace and harmony. That though we are all different (in race, religion), we are still citizens of the same country, swear allegiance to it and we share our joys together.
I think people like you look at the violence on TV and think, "Organized Religion makes the world go crazy and shed blood." Okay, maybe it does. But look at someone who is NOT living in a warzone - someone who peacefully goes to Church/Mosque, makes peace with himself and God and lives a normal life. Maybe then, you wouldn't hate religion as much. Religion builds character, tolerance and love for your fellow man - but of course, that is not what they show you on TV.
I don't care if you hate religion - but don't take a dump on society while you are at it.
You are offended by turbans too? Hell, I don't mind punks with purple hair, red slacks and lime green t-shirts. I don't mind two dudes making out in public view - I just turn away. Heard of the expression, "To each their own"? But turbans is pushing their religion down to you? Muslim women wearing scarves offends you too?
It is anal people like you who think a few thousand muslim women wearing headscarves is a danger to your way of life and your freedom, or that a nativity scene is violating the 'separation of church and state' clause etc. etc.
Become a lawyer. Seriously. You can't understand a simple fact - America has a Christian majority and the government SHOULD do what they can to promote any festivities that spread cheer and joy. Hell, the government here promotes all religious festivals to maintain peace and harmony. That though we are all different (in race, religion), we are still citizens of the same country, swear allegiance to it and we share our joys together.
I think people like you look at the violence on TV and think, "Organized Religion makes the world go crazy and shed blood." Okay, maybe it does. But look at someone who is NOT living in a warzone - someone who peacefully goes to Church/Mosque, makes peace with himself and God and lives a normal life. Maybe then, you wouldn't hate religion as much. Religion builds character, tolerance and love for your fellow man - but of course, that is not what they show you on TV.
I don't care if you hate religion - but don't take a dump on society while you are at it.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
This is a really simple issue. As the first amendment says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,"
This means that the government shall not endorse any religion or give one a higher importance than any others.
Displaying any religious icon, text, or symbol on government property is an endorsement of that religion and is prohibited. Now, if they wanted to display religious symbols for ALL major religions, that's probably OK. But it's the Christian assumption that simply because they're the majority they can display whatever they want and the ~15% (and growing) of the country that isn't Christian should just accept it.
That's not what America is about. America was founded by Deists (NOT CHRISTIANS) who felt that the success of government and individual spirituality was paramount, not the promotion of religious bureaucratic institutions or their invasion into public affairs.
As for "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," this means that we are all free to participate in any religion we choose and the government has no right to say otherwise. However, having the government adorn religious symbols of one or a few particular religions is an endorsement of those institutions and that's already been established as a no-no.
Everyone is free to practice whatever religion they please but the government cannot participate nor proliferate it.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,"
This means that the government shall not endorse any religion or give one a higher importance than any others.
Displaying any religious icon, text, or symbol on government property is an endorsement of that religion and is prohibited. Now, if they wanted to display religious symbols for ALL major religions, that's probably OK. But it's the Christian assumption that simply because they're the majority they can display whatever they want and the ~15% (and growing) of the country that isn't Christian should just accept it.
That's not what America is about. America was founded by Deists (NOT CHRISTIANS) who felt that the success of government and individual spirituality was paramount, not the promotion of religious bureaucratic institutions or their invasion into public affairs.
As for "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," this means that we are all free to participate in any religion we choose and the government has no right to say otherwise. However, having the government adorn religious symbols of one or a few particular religions is an endorsement of those institutions and that's already been established as a no-no.
Everyone is free to practice whatever religion they please but the government cannot participate nor proliferate it.
Schfifty Five
Lifer
You joined 2 days ago, have like a 50ppd avg, and you already start posting stuff about christianity...yeah you're definitely a ""WWYBYWB" person just trolling...get over yourself.
MrK6
Diamond Member
No, it's what I get for dumbing-down complex topics for idiots like you.
I'm not offended by any religious expression and I think it's fine/great that people have it in their lives. However, it has no place in an effective government (a concept that this country for some reason still cannot grasp). The beginnings of the separation of church and state ideology are in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution "Congress shall make no law resecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" (google the rest, moshquerade, if you want). Now before some moron says "oh, but MrK6, you're wrong because it says it cant stop the expression of religion," here's your rebuttal: no crap, PRIVATELY. The government still doesn't have the right to favor one religion over the next. If they put up a statue of the Buddah instead, it isn't hard to imagine the Christian fundies jumping up and down in outrage until they pass out. Grow up people: there are other people besides you and other beliefs besides yours in this world.
GTaudiophile
Lifer
I just got back from the National Christmas Tree Lighting ceremony in front of the White House. I was VERY proud to see a nativity scene along side the tree.
Face it. This is a Christian nation. Politics are a reflection of religious beliefs by other means. They cannot be separated. Don't like being in the minority? Move! Or just put up with it.
Face it. This is a Christian nation. Politics are a reflection of religious beliefs by other means. They cannot be separated. Don't like being in the minority? Move! Or just put up with it.
why? its because most rational people humbly admit that there must be some kind of god. we couldn't exist without one. don't cry evolution, because what started that, and what started that and what started that... etc..
while the level of "god's" influence on our lives today is arguable, if you can look around, see the sky, the trees, the stars, our own "intelligent designs", and everything else that makes us lucky to be alive, and think that it all happened by chance, then I would think you need some kind of help mentally. People that think there is no "god", even if as just as an initial creator, are really quite arrogant and afraid to think there might be a higher existance that may need to be answered to.
I believe in evolution to an extent, but to think something as miraculous as our bodies just happened to be, that is crazy. You can't just pile all the materials needed to build a $500,000 home in a big mess and think that over a billion years its going to somehow manage to put itself together according to spec without mindful influenence. It will NEVER happen. Same with us humans..
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