Is it even possible for Hillary to win a debate?

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mnewsham

Lifer
Oct 2, 2010
14,539
428
136
yet it covers less
It might cover less that has to do with your specific life, but $20 says it covers a hell of a lot more, just not things you'd expect to need at your age/gender.

You'd be VERY hard pressed to have insurance that covered MORE before the affordable care act than after, it's always possible, but you must have been paying massive premium pre-affordable care act if you actually had more coverage.

The whole reason the cost went up is because it covers a hell of a lot more, the problem is most people simply don't see the point in the extra coverage because they're young and healthy. But the coverage itself is across the board much broader coverage for almost everyone besides people who already had top tier expensive insurance.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Payroll taxes are in practice paid by the employee given it's taken of their paycheck.

Also, the special interest tax breaks you're talking about are a concession to the free market types. Tax incentives are how we do regulation in this country. Try to think about this to figure it out for a bit, or a while in your case, before replying.

The person I was responding to wasn't talking about payroll taxes and you continuing to talk about them is quite frankly baffling. You might as well be talking about whether Trump pays more in parking tickets or something because that's just as irrelevant to what the person asked. Just to remind you:

Apparently not but why are my taxes higher than Trump's then when I'm supposed to be in a lower income tax bracket?

And if you want to lower payroll taxes because you think they're unfair to the poor or whatever your angle is go right ahead.

As for "tax incentives = regulation" again I don't think that really answers the question Indus posed. Unless you think the answer to his question is that Trump pays lower taxes than Indus because it's "how we do regulation in this country."
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,992
31,551
146
Obama gave us something all right. My health insurance now costs me between two and three times (in deductible and premiums) what it did just five years ago, yet it covers less. Blue Cross Blue Shield-Tennessee just completely pulled out of the Nashville, Memphis, and Knoxville county exchange markets, and for those who remain, the private policy rates jumped 67% in one year. Our small business policy premiums would have increased a like amount for the 2016-2017 year, had we stayed with BCBS-T.

Obama and the Democrats figured out how to move middle class Americans onto the government charity health insurance plan Medicaid for our former middle class health insurance rates and make us damned glad we have even that.

You're in Rocky Top, right? I'm sorry that your republican lesgislature let you down, and refused to let the ACA work for you.

Lol, look at this guy! He tried!

More and more, we see that the only places where the ACA fails to deliver, are in states where republicans dare not let blacky! tell them what to do! Of course, their peons champion them along in this great crusade, and then they get sick. And shift the blame.

Sucks. Maybe one day you can convince your neighbors to vote rationally, for your sake (I know you don't vote republican).
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It might cover less that has to do with your specific life, but $20 says it covers a hell of a lot more, just not things you'd expect to need at your age/gender.

You'd be VERY hard pressed to have insurance that covered MORE before the affordable care act than after, it's always possible, but you must have been paying massive premium pre-affordable care act if you actually had more coverage.

The whole reason the cost went up is because it covers a hell of a lot more, the problem is most people simply don't see the point in the extra coverage because they're young and healthy. But the coverage itself is across the board much broader coverage for almost everyone besides people who already had top tier expensive insurance.
I'm about to turn 56, and not exactly a picture of health. I'd say the reason it has so raised the cost is because of all the freebies and because the people not previously covered tended to most need health insurance. Although one of my doctors (who universally hate it) did bring up the massive increase in paperwork, training and software costs.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
The person I was responding to wasn't talking about payroll taxes and you continuing to talk about them is quite frankly baffling. You might as well be talking about whether Trump pays more in parking tickets or something because that's just as irrelevant to what the person asked. Just to remind you:



And if you want to lower payroll taxes because you think they're unfair to the poor or whatever your angle is go right ahead.

As for "tax incentives = regulation" again I don't think that really answers the question Indus posed. Unless you think the answer to his question is that Trump pays lower taxes than Indus because it's "how we do regulation in this country."

As another reminder this is what I replied to:

Yes, amazing how that works when the person I responded to was talking about how his income tax paid was higher than Trump's. With your razor sharp ability to miss the point I can see where you'd start complaining about something completely different. But don't worry, I have zero doubt that Indus didn't pay more in payroll taxes than Trump.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
The person I was responding to wasn't talking about payroll taxes and you continuing to talk about them is quite frankly baffling. You might as well be talking about whether Trump pays more in parking tickets or something because that's just as irrelevant to what the person asked. Just to remind you:



And if you want to lower payroll taxes because you think they're unfair to the poor or whatever your angle is go right ahead.

As for "tax incentives = regulation" again I don't think that really answers the question Indus posed. Unless you think the answer to his question is that Trump pays lower taxes than Indus because it's "how we do regulation in this country."

You're desperately avoiding the real issue, which is Trump's tax rate, not the amount of money he pays if any. The fact that there have been years when he paid no federal income tax on massive incomes indicates that he lives at the apex of tax avoidance strategy & that he likely pays even less than Mitt's 14% rate.

What he proposes, of course, is that the rates of people in his circumstances be cut even further so that we can find the pot of gold at the end of the trickle down rainbow.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,759
16,109
146
I believe it is the trickle down rainbow that is golden and the only thing at the end of it is a golden puddle.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You're in Rocky Top, right? I'm sorry that your republican lesgislature let you down, and refused to let the ACA work for you.

Lol, look at this guy! He tried!

More and more, we see that the only places where the ACA fails to deliver, are in states where republicans dare not let blacky! tell them what to do! Of course, their peons champion them along in this great crusade, and then they get sick. And shift the blame.

Sucks. Maybe one day you can convince your neighbors to vote rationally, for your sake (I know you don't vote republican).
Actually Tennessee already has an expanded alternative Medicaid system. I support the further expansion; the thing about the hospitals covering the state's share is bogus since they do it with money the state gives them, but the state is going to pay most of those costs anyway. Maybe with the expansion, another quarter million Tennesseans might be inspired to have something checked out before it gets too advanced to easily treat. A friend's son had long term stomach pains and by the time he went to the emergency room, he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. His medical bills were way over $250k, and he still died. Had he insurance, perhaps his cancer would have been curable for a lot less. Sometimes cheaper isn't cheaper, and while nothing is wholly good or wholly bad, this seems like a worthwhile shot. Also, I know a lot of people who no longer have health insurance due to the ACA. Most of them (probably all except some of the younger ones) would qualify under the expanded program. Those people will likely form some of the next wing of chronically ill.

Full disclosure, McCormick (my state Congressman) and Haslam are Republicans I do vote for. They are good people.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You're desperately avoiding the real issue, which is Trump's tax rate, not the amount of money he pays if any. The fact that there have been years when he paid no federal income tax on massive incomes indicates that he lives at the apex of tax avoidance strategy & that he likely pays even less than Mitt's 14% rate.

What he proposes, of course, is that the rates of people in his circumstances be cut even further so that we can find the pot of gold at the end of the trickle down rainbow.
Whatever Trump pays is determined by the rules put into place by Senator Clinton and those like her. Rest assured that whatever draconian taxes she puts in place, she and those like her (of both parties) will be largely unaffected.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
As another reminder this is what I replied to:

Payroll taxes are capped. Thus unless Indus made less money than Trump it actually is impossible that Indus paid more in payroll taxes than Trump and since his question starts with the assertion "I'm in a lower tax bracket than Trump" my statement is accurate. Read it again: I have zero doubt that Indus didn't pay more in payroll taxes than Trump.

You're desperately avoiding the real issue, which is Trump's tax rate, not the amount of money he pays if any. The fact that there have been years when he paid no federal income tax on massive incomes indicates that he lives at the apex of tax avoidance strategy & that he likely pays even less than Mitt's 14% rate.

What he proposes, of course, is that the rates of people in his circumstances be cut even further so that we can find the pot of gold at the end of the trickle down rainbow.

I didn't raise the issue you dumbass, Indus did. And even your statement is inaccurate because the amount of money Trump pays in taxes has a lot to do with how much income Trump made in a given year. Taxes owed are a factor of both net income, statutory tax bracket rate, and deductions or credits so it's entirely likely and altogether proper that he might pay low or no taxes some years. Perhaps he didn't take a salary from his company and got compensated in stock options instead, in that case his income taxes are going to be low because he'll be paying cap gains instead. Maybe he lost a sh!t ton of money in the stock market and thus had an effective negative income for the year, in that case he would owe zero income tax. Perhaps like I stated he installed solar panels on all his properties and got a gazillion dollars in tax credits for it. Maybe his company went bankrupt and his salary was one of the creditors claims against the company. Point is we have no damn idea. Given the nature of his businesses and his bankruptcy history, etc. it's probable that some years he pays extremely high income tax rates and other years pays zero or extremely little; that's the nature of tax returns for the ultra wealthy.

Now compare someone like Indus, we'll presume for sake of argument he makes $100k. Likely his income is comprised almost entirely of salary. And he doesn't itemize because he doesn't own a house. Because of this situation his tax bill is likely going to be relatively consistent year to year. Thus he will almost certainly pay higher income taxes than Trump in some years because some years Trump won't have declared income and thus has no tax liability.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Whatever Trump pays is determined by the rules put into place by Senator Clinton and those like her. Rest assured that whatever draconian taxes she puts in place, she and those like her (of both parties) will be largely unaffected.

Well, Dems did manage to bump the LTCG rate to 20% & an ACA surtax on all income above $250K, iirc.

You're right about the ultra rich being largely unaffected by taxes, however. If we doubled their tax rates their lifestyles would remain unaffected. Their stranglehold on the economy would just grow more slowly.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
seems like this is the first year that republicans really don't care about "flip flopping" and have spent no small amount of energy explaining around how lying really isn't all that important, anyway.

It's fascinating.

It's called rationalization. They've already decided who they want to vote for, and they will explain away any negative traits in wonderfully out of touch with reality imaginative ways up to and including "if you don't vote for my candidate meteors will fall out of the sky and randomly crush the skulls of a village of orphans holding kittens in their arms...maybe...you can't prove it won't happen!!!"

In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable—or even admirable...
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,265
9,338
136
A friend's son had long term stomach pains and by the time he went to the emergency room, he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. His medical bills were way over $250k, and he still died. Had he insurance, perhaps his cancer would have been curable for a lot less. Sometimes cheaper isn't cheaper, and while nothing is wholly good or wholly bad, this seems like a worthwhile shot. Also, I know a lot of people who no longer have health insurance due to the ACA. Most of them (probably all except some of the younger ones) would qualify under the expanded program. Those people will likely form some of the next wing of chronically ill.
.
The point of all "insurance" is that you pay small amounts of money into a pool of money, and if/when you need a service covered by that specific insurance pool, the money is there. The most effective and efficient insurance pool includes every single person. Some may pay in more than others, and some people may not pay at all. But the larger the insurance pool, the better for the entire society.

In a civilized society, everyone pays in, and everyone is able to receive health care. This is the starting point. Civilized people then begin negotiating what is covered. Why it is covered. When it is covered. And of course whether there is private supplemental coverage and how it should be treated.

This is, in fact, how any civilized society should function on almost every single issue. Society should function to make society better off, and then you tweak around the edges to try to make it as fair and functional as possible. But I digress.

Anyway, if health care were universal, perhaps your friend's son would have just gone and seen a doctor because he was having stomach pains, and didn't need his father or mother or caregiver to have a specific job that offered health insurance. Depending on how old your friend's son was, perhaps he was eligible for SCHIP. Perhaps they were eligible for Medicaid and just didn't know it. And, uh, just to remind everyone, the ACA was initially written and designed with all of the 50 US states getting expanded Medicaid. Which means that your friend's son may have been able to have the expanded Medicaid that was intended, had not Chief Justice John Roberts decided that mandatory Medicaid expansion would take away states' freedoms to not cover it's poorer citizens with health insurance. But, I don't know the exact circumstances of your friend and his son.

It's awful that some people get sick from genetics and happenstance and die from lack of health care, and it's equally awful and aggravating watching people intentionally destroy their bodies over decades and then decide to seek help when the condition isn't curable and is instead palliative. Personally, I just assume cover everyone with one giant health insurance pool, because not only can people who need health care "on accident" get it when they need it, but people who destroy their bodies for decades might stop by the doc every now and again...just enough to keep their acute and chronic problems in check, and much cheaper to treat.

And everyone getting preventative care when they need it would be much cheaper than what we do today. The hundreds of insurance pools that exist have infinitely less power to drive down health care costs than one health insurance pool, aka universal coverage.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
Payroll taxes are capped. Thus unless Indus made less money than Trump it actually is impossible that Indus paid more in payroll taxes than Trump and since his question starts with the assertion "I'm in a lower tax bracket than Trump" my statement is accurate. Read it again: I have zero doubt that Indus didn't pay more in payroll taxes than Trump.

It's entirely possible that Trump doesn't pay himself a salary, if anything that might be likely given his supposed record with paying taxes.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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It's entirely possible that Trump doesn't pay himself a salary, if anything that might be likely given his supposed record with paying taxes.

Yes I agree it's entirely possible in real life. But it's not in this rhetorical question that Indus posed that begins with the assumption that Trump is in a higher tax bracket than Indus. From that assumption the logic inevitably flows that Trump had income and it was enough to put him into a higher tax bracket. Well, let me slightly adjust that, Trump could have some passive income or something that wasn't subject to payroll taxes but that doesn't really change the nature of the question Indus asked which was about income taxes.

As I've stated earlier I'm open to ideas about reforming either the income tax or payroll tax systems. Both are monstrous Rube Goldberg machines that have created huge unintended consequences and moral hazard by (most of the time) well meaning subsidies, credits, et cetera that were passed by well-meaning people to achieve some policy goal. However no matter how well intentioned or logical at the time, when you holistically look at the current tax code as a whole it's a fvcking mess and doesn't achieve those policy goals. What I do reject is efforts to use the tax code as a weapon against one class or group like the rich because you think they 'have it coming to them' or whatever.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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Yes I agree it's entirely possible in real life. But it's not in this rhetorical question that Indus posed that begins with the assumption that Trump is in a higher tax bracket than Indus. From that assumption the logic inevitably flows that Trump had income and it was enough to put him into a higher tax bracket. Well, let me slightly adjust that, Trump could have some passive income or something that wasn't subject to payroll taxes but that doesn't really change the nature of the question Indus asked which was about income taxes.

I really don't give a shit about whatever "question" which has nothing to do anything Indus said. I simply made a comment about payroll tax which you brought up, which then you got confused why anyone said something about payroll tax.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I really don't give a shit about whatever "question" which has nothing to do anything Indus said. I simply made a comment about payroll tax which you brought up, which then you got confused why anyone said something about payroll tax.


Here's my initial post you're referring to in context of what it was referring to and responses to my comment. Kindly point out where payroll tax is mentioned anywhere in that post. I didn't bring up payroll tax, Senseamp did in his response to my post. You can admit your error at any time.


Is it even possible for Hillary to win a debate?

Apparently not but why are my taxes higher than Trump's then when I'm supposed to be in a lower income tax bracket?

No idea. Maybe Trump is taking advantage of the solar power subsidies that Democrats love. Or the fossil fuel subsidies that Republicans love. Or who the hell knows what. The tax code is a fvcking joke with all the carve-outs to special interests and pet programs on both sides and if you're making middle class income both parties have made it such that you're the one getting screwed and paying the most in taxes as a percentage of income. That's not by accident and neither of these candidates would do a damn thing to change that.


C:\Users\ghoback\AppData\Local\Temp\1\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg
Typical misleading rightwing BS that ignores payroll taxes.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
Here's my initial post you're referring to in context of what it was referring to and responses to my comment. Kindly point out where payroll tax is mentioned anywhere in that post. I didn't bring up payroll tax, Senseamp did in his response to my post. You can admit your error at any time.


Is it even possible for Hillary to win a debate?

I didn't reply to that post, dumbass. I realize it hurts to be called stupid, but a battle of wits with someone in a position to call you that isn't to your advantage.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I didn't reply to that post, dumbass. I realize it hurts to be called stupid, but a battle of wits with someone in a position to call you that isn't to your advantage.

So no you won't admit your error. That's fine. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the phrase "brought up" and have it confused with "responded to someone else who brought it up".

You: "I simply made a comment about payroll tax which you brought up"
Me: "I didn't bring up payroll tax, Senseamp did."
You: "I didn't reply to that post."
Me: <sigh>
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
So no you won't admit your error. That's fine. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the phrase "brought up" and have it confused with "responded to someone else who brought it up".

You: "I simply made a comment about payroll tax which you brought up"
Me: "I didn't bring up payroll tax, Senseamp did."
You: "I didn't reply to that post."
Me: <sigh>

I said something about payroll tax in reply to a post which mentioned payroll tax. Something about that evidently confuses you and it'll probably forever remain a mystery why.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I said something about payroll tax in reply to a post which mentioned payroll tax. Something about that evidently confuses you and it'll probably forever remain a mystery why.

Yeah, I guess you don't know what "brought up" means.

But back to your supposed point, whether Trump pays himself a salary or not is only one factor that determines whether you have a tax liability or not, whether that tax liability is income, payroll, capital gains, or other. Since a good amount of Trump's income may be from non-salary sources which are also subject to payroll taxes he could theoretically still pay higher payroll taxes than Indus despite having zero salary.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-the-new-medicare-tax-applies-rental-property-owners.html

I have little doubt that Trump paid whatever taxes he was legally obligated to pay, otherwise hopefully he gets audited and fined for underpayment or prosecuted for tax evasion. Senseamp seems to want to bring up an unrelated topic of whether our tax policy should be changed. Which is a perfectly fine conversation to have but mostly irrelevant to how much tax liability Trump has in a given year and whether it's less than some ATPN poster like Indus.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
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Yeah, I guess you don't know what "brought up" means.

It's a synonym for mentioned in this case. Recall your confusion from the start was why anyone would talk about payroll in reply to a post which brought-up/mentioned/says payroll right in the post. Maybe it would help if you tried to explain in greater detail why this is confusing as that completely beggars belief.

But back to your supposed point, whether Trump pays himself a salary or not is only one factor that determines whether you have a tax liability or not, whether that tax liability is income, payroll, capital gains, or other. Since a good amount of Trump's income may be from non-salary sources which are also subject to payroll taxes he could theoretically still pay higher payroll taxes than Indus despite having zero salary.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-the-new-medicare-tax-applies-rental-property-owners.html

I have little doubt that Trump paid whatever taxes he was legally obligated to pay, otherwise hopefully he gets audited and fined for underpayment or prosecuted for tax evasion. Senseamp seems to want to bring up an unrelated topic of whether our tax policy should be changed. Which is a perfectly fine conversation to have but mostly irrelevant to how much tax liability Trump has in a given year and whether it's less than some ATPN poster like Indus.

Indus's general point is that it similarly beggars belief a supposedly really rich guy can conceivably pay less or at least similar taxes than he does. Your point that maybe trump gets many breaks or whatever is apropos, which is why I also replied that breaks or whatever are a result of our regulatory regime.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
It's a synonym for mentioned in this case. Recall your confusion from the start was why anyone would talk about payroll in reply to a post which brought-up/mentioned/says payroll right in the post. Maybe it would help if you tried to explain in greater detail why this is confusing as that completely beggars belief.

Indus's general point is that it similarly beggars belief a supposedly really rich guy can conceivably pay less or at least similar taxes than he does. Your point that maybe trump gets many breaks or whatever is apropos, which is why I also replied that breaks or whatever are a result of our regulatory regime.

So which tax breaks that would be applicable to Trump's personal tax liability do you think are part of the 'regulatory regime'? If you meant to say the tax codes are full of provisions meant to influence economic behavior to achieve desired social or political objectives that I can buy. If you want to say that tax policy can supplement regulatory regimes in certain domains like international trade then sure. But individual returns are influenced by special interest tax policy considerations exponentially more than statutes designed to support the regulatory regime. I guess the Obamacare "no insurance penalty" could be one factor in individual taxes that could be considered to support the 'regulatory regime' but I can't think of many more that you could say the same about. And Trump almost certainly isn't filing as an S-Corp or something else that might muddy the water about his personal taxes versus those due to his business activities.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
So which tax breaks that would be applicable to Trump's personal tax liability do you think are part of the 'regulatory regime'? If you meant to say the tax codes are full of provisions meant to influence economic behavior to achieve desired social or political objectives that I can buy. If you want to say that tax policy can supplement regulatory regimes in certain domains like international trade then sure. But individual returns are influenced by special interest tax policy considerations exponentially more than statutes designed to support the regulatory regime. I guess the Obamacare "no insurance penalty" could be one factor in individual taxes that could be considered to support the 'regulatory regime' but I can't think of many more that you could say the same about. And Trump almost certainly isn't filing as an S-Corp or something else that might muddy the water about his personal taxes versus those due to his business activities.

Just to be clear about what I was replying to with the statements about tax breaks & such, since there's been much confusion in that regard as of late:

No idea. Maybe Trump is taking advantage of the solar power subsidies that Democrats love. Or the fossil fuel subsidies that Republicans love. Or who the hell knows what. The tax code is a fvcking joke with all the carve-outs to special interests and pet programs on both sides and if you're making middle class income both parties have made it such that you're the one getting screwed and paying the most in taxes as a percentage of income. That's not by accident and neither of these candidates would do a damn thing to change that.

And again to be perfectly clear here, are you expecting me to explain why you thought he was getting tax breaks? Have you considered asking yourself first?