Is it Ethical and/or legal to use your neighbors internet connection? *pollage*

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: senseamp
A person who configures his router to give access to anyone and then calls the police when they do connect to it, is like a woman who lets everyone have sex with her then calls the police and cries rape.

Intent is a large part of the law in these cases. And, actually your analogy is a bad one because there's no active trickery involved here.

If you want to make a trap analogy then this case is much more like a sting where the undercover cops act as drug dealers or prostitutes. You're the one willingly taking advantage of a service in a method known to be illegal.

It's not active trickery when a woman has sex with someone and then changes her mind to cry rape later. It's not a trap. It's called making a mistake. She made mistake of having sex with someone, then she decides she wants to prosecute them for rape. Same way someone makes a mistake of configuring their router to allow everyone to connect, then deciding to prosecute them for "stealing" internet access.

The difference being that there's an actual exchange of words and invitations between two people in your example when, in reality, you're the only one inviting yourself in when you hop on someone's network. If you had gone and asked the guy if it was okay to be on his network, he says yes and then he decides later that it was a mistake and calls the cops, then it would parallel your example.

Of course that all ignores the whole fact that you're both in violation of the ISP's terms when he agrees to let you on.

There is actual exchange of words and invitations by devices acting on behalf of those people. The owner configures his router to accept outside connections. I configure my adapter to connect to networks that grant access. Everything is done in the way that the network owner and the the person connecting have configured their devices to do. Actions speak louder than words, and the owner of the router configured it to grant access to outsiders. There is no way of getting around it.

Your same argument could be made of accessing personal shares on the network, which clearly isn't ethical or legal. I didn't know that electronic devices were allowed to make agreements on behalf of humans. Like I said before, if you haven't configured your wireless card because you're technologically ignorant ("ignorance is not a defense" blah blah blah) then it falls into a grey area for me.

However if you're trying to justify the legality and ethics of sitting on other peoples' networks with the intent of taking advantage of free internet then, frankly, your moral compass is off.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Your same argument could be made of accessing personal shares on the network, which clearly isn't ethical or legal.

Good point.

If it really is ethical to use someone's wireless connection, why does everyone do it secretively? If you really think the neighbor is granting you permission by configuring their router a certain way, why not just say "hey neighbor, I'm using your wireless connection, ok?" They obviously wouldn't mind, right? Or if you think they would mind, how can you say it's ethical to use it anyway?

To many people, whether it is right to do is less important than whether they can get away with it.

 

[Finalnight]

recommend people who use neighbor's internet to get a real job and their own internet service.

 

[intogamer]

Originally posted by: senseamp
By the way, when you are roaming on a different cellular network, you have no explicit verbal consent from the owner of that network to connect to it. It is implicit that if they configured their wireless network to allow your phone to roam on it, you have their consent. It should be no different for WiFi, which is the same situation on a smaller scale. It is not stealing if you configure your network access point to grant access to everyone.

Carriers have roaming agreements. 911 calls connects to any tower they find

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Your same argument could be made of accessing personal shares on the network, which clearly isn't ethical or legal.

Good point.

If it really is ethical to use someone's wireless connection, why does everyone do it secretively? If you really think the neighbor is granting you permission by configuring their router a certain way, why not just say "hey neighbor, I'm using your wireless connection, ok?" They obviously wouldn't mind, right? Or if you think they would mind, how can you say it's ethical to use it anyway?

To many people, whether it is right to do is less important than whether they can get away with it.

Wardriving and warchalking used be popular back when WiFi was new. Although some people questioned the practice, I don't know of anybody who got arrested for it back when it was popular.

Nobody seems to bother mapping open WiFi access points anymore, though... probably because they're now so plentiful that you can find one in practically any urban or suburban area.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Your same argument could be made of accessing personal shares on the network, which clearly isn't ethical or legal.

Good point.

If it really is ethical to use someone's wireless connection, why does everyone do it secretively? If you really think the neighbor is granting you permission by configuring their router a certain way, why not just say "hey neighbor, I'm using your wireless connection, ok?" They obviously wouldn't mind, right? Or if you think they would mind, how can you say it's ethical to use it anyway?

To many people, whether it is right to do is less important than whether they can get away with it.

Wardriving and warchalking used be popular back when WiFi was new. Although some people questioned the practice, I don't know of anybody who got arrested for it back when it was popular.

Nobody seems to bother mapping open WiFi access points anymore, though... probably because they're now so plentiful that you can find one in practically any urban or suburban area.

Yeah, but all wardrivers did was what you described, map the wifi points. They didn't piggyback the connection.

 

[seemingly random]

For those posters who are demanding justice to this obviously illegal and heinous activity, what sort of punishment is advocated? $100 fine & community service, $1000 find & six months in jail, $10,000 fine & five years in jail, ...

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
For those posters who are demanding justice to this obviously illegal and heinous activity, what sort of punishment is advocated? $100 fine & community service, $1000 find & six months in jail, $10,000 fine & five years in jail, ...

I believe the federal law carries 5 years and 10,000 dollars. States have their own penalties as well, depends on the state.

Here's another interesting note. If you are on my wireless network I can capture all your cookies, e-mail, traffic, etc WITHOUT penalty.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
For those posters who are demanding justice to this obviously illegal and heinous activity, what sort of punishment is advocated? $100 fine & community service, $1000 find & six months in jail, $10,000 fine & five years in jail, ...

I think people are more just astonished at the lack of personal responsibility that some posters have exhibited in this thread, as opposed to being out for blood and legal retribution.

 

[SandInMyShoes]

I think a lot of moral compasses are way off base. I feel there is enough precedent in place that the presence of an open WiFi network implies intent to allow access. I think the precedent is entrenched deeply enough that it is now the responsibility of the access point owner to secure his network if he does not desire open access to it.

That said, I think it is unethical to use a random unsecured access point as your primary internet connection on a day-to-day basis, unless you have explicit permission from the AP's owner, and then only if it does not violate the terms of service of the internet provider.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: seemingly random
For those posters who are demanding justice to this obviously illegal and heinous activity, what sort of punishment is advocated? $100 fine & community service, $1000 find & six months in jail, $10,000 fine & five years in jail, ...

I think people are more just astonished at the lack of personal responsibility that some posters have exhibited in this thread, as opposed to being out for blood and legal retribution.

Exactly.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: SandInMyShoes
I think a lot of moral compasses are way off base. I feel there is enough precedent in place that the presence of an open WiFi network implies intent to allow access. I think the precedent is entrenched deeply enough that it is now the responsibility of the access point owner to secure his network if he does not desire open access to it.

That said, I think it is unethical to use a random unsecured access point as your primary internet connection on a day-to-day basis, unless you have explicit permission from the AP's owner, and then only if it does not violate the terms of service of the internet provider.

Implies intent?

::shakes head::

Oh boy.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
For those posters who are demanding justice to this obviously illegal and heinous activity, what sort of punishment is advocated? $100 fine & community service, $1000 find & six months in jail, $10,000 fine & five years in jail, ...

I think paying for whatever bandwidth you used plus a warning would be fair for a first offense.
Second offense would be the fine and community service, progressing to harsher penalties if the person continues to ignore the law.


Is it ethical - no
If your neighbor opens a box of cookies and leaves them on your back steps, that doesn't mean your free to eat them. Something being on your property doesn't make it yours.

Legal - absolutely not, comes under theft of signal laws.

As for those that don't see a problem with using someones AP without permission.
Your probably the same ones that don't have a problem pirating music,movies,software.

 

[seemingly random]

The black and white moral certitude of some here ceases to amaze me.

Quandary: if you have a runny nose and are walking by a sidewalk cafe, is it stealing to take a napkin from a table?

And, just for the record, I think it's tasteless to continually use a neighbor's wireless connection knowingly whether to just browse a little or do heavy downloading. The operative words are here continuously and knowingly.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob


Heh. Using your logic, perhaps I should sue my neighbors for allowing their unsecured wireless access to "trespass" on my property

So its ok to hack satellite tv and get it i?
How about receiving the NSA and homeland security broadcast via satellite ?
Their signal is trespassing on your property isn't it ?
I'm sure they will see things your way !

Sorry... but if you don't want me to use your wireless access you shouldn't have set up your router to advertise it as available. Considering that most wireless software is configured to grab the strongest signal available, I'm sure that many people are often using their neighbors wireless access without even knowing it. What are you going to do... send them all the prison as well for not knowing how to configure the Windows networking settings properly?

The difference is intent.
If you have internet access at home and accidentally are using your neighbors wifi thats one thing. But if you have no internet access of your own and are using your neighbors that criminal. It doesn't matter if you don't even know you are doing it at that point.
Falls under the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" rules.
Where did you think the internet was coming from ?

Send them to prison, NO. Not for first time offenders. But once your warned and made aware of the law, then start talking about jail time.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: ultimatebob


Heh. Using your logic, perhaps I should sue my neighbors for allowing their unsecured wireless access to "trespass" on my property

So its ok to hack satellite tv and get it i?
How about receiving the NSA and homeland security broadcast via satellite?
Their signal is trespassing on your property isn't it ?
I'm sure they will see things your way !

Ahem. Those aren't unsecured transmissions.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: ultimatebob


Heh. Using your logic, perhaps I should sue my neighbors for allowing their unsecured wireless access to "trespass" on my property

So its ok to hack satellite tv and get it i?
How about receiving the NSA and homeland security broadcast via satellite?
Their signal is trespassing on your property isn't it ?
I'm sure they will see things your way !

Ahem. Those aren't unsecured transmissions.

Actually some of those are.
Its a scary thought but the NSA has prosecuted people in the past for intercepting email that was sent over satellite tcp/ip links in plain text. There are also companies that use satellite internet unencrypted.

 

[senseamp]

This is going to become a moot point soon, once wifi enabled devices become more widespread, and wifi service is treated more like cell phone service where you go from one access point to another without losing connection. Then hopefully the rednecks who think internet is a series of tubes and you have to walk around asking for permission before connecting to a shared network will get with the program.

 

[Minjin]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
The black and white moral certitude of some here ceases to amaze me.

Quandary: if you have a runny nose and are walking by a sidewalk cafe, is it stealing to take a napkin from a table?

Whats quandrous (yes I know I just made a new word) about that? Of course its stealing. If you need a napkin, ask a waiter or someone who is in position to give you one. You don't just take.

 

[smack Down]

Is it ethical to go to an unsecured forum server and post on it? Do I need to write Anand and get permission to use his site?

Face it the internet is different then the real world. Online if no one is preventing you from access content it is free for the taking.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
The black and white moral certitude of some here ceases to amaze me.

Quandary: if you have a runny nose and are walking by a sidewalk cafe, is it stealing to take a napkin from a table?

And, just for the record, I think it's tasteless to continually use a neighbor's wireless connection knowingly whether to just browse a little or do heavy downloading. The operative words are here continuously and knowingly.

It is amusing, isn't it? You have all these people preaching from their moral high horses in this thread, although we all know damn well that most of them probably have hard drives full of illegally copied software and iPod's filled with pirated movies and music. It's OK for THEM to break the law, just as long as nobody else does :|

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: smack Down
Is it ethical to go to an unsecured forum server and post on it? Do I need to write Anand and get permission to use his site?

Face it the internet is different then the real world. Online if no one is preventing you from access content it is free for the taking.

The Internet is a Public Network, by definition. Your neighbor's wifi IS NOT!

Nice try though.

This entitlement mentality and lack of personal responsibility is disgusting.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: senseamp
This is going to become a moot point soon, once wifi enabled devices become more widespread, and wifi service is treated more like cell phone service where you go from one access point to another without losing connection. Then hopefully the rednecks who think internet is a series of tubes and you have to walk around asking for permission before connecting to a shared network will get with the program.

Actually the newer standards address this very issue and there is a flag in the management protocol that says if it is a truly public network (don't need permission) or not (home, etc).

 

[Kewing]

Ethical - Yes. If they are not locking that shit down, and I am sitting down with my laptop and pick it up..imma use it if I need to. Using it as your sole way of getting the internet is kinda a gray area...but still isn't too bad

Legal - no

 

[PBMangan]

I must admit, my conection has gone down and I used an unsuspecting neighbor's connection to download a necesary driver, I never even tried to check out their files though.