Is it better to be born into the adoption system or never to be born at all?

[Whoozyerdaddy]

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Nominated for best post in the history of ATOT.

 

[zinfamous]

The point that people might not answer the same when the planets resources have been depleted has not been addressed many many times in this thread AFAIK.

so you're still ignoring the fact that arguing form a perspective of non-existence is completely ludicrous?

 

[HAL9000]

so you're still ignoring the fact that arguing form a perspective of non-existence is completely ludicrous?

I'm not ignoring your point, I disagree with it and I've explained why.

 

[zinfamous]

I'm not ignoring your point, I disagree with it and I've explained why.

no you haven't

 

[MrsBugi]

The adoption system in the states is sadly flawed. I've done work with adoption families and some of the stuff they've gone through is heartbreaking. 🙁

 

[HAL9000]

no you haven't

...

You're over thinking it, the point is that you would never have experienced anything positive or negative. Regardless of what that is like, the question is would you rather have gone through your life as is, but you would have been adopted. Or would you rather have never experienced all the good and bad in your life.

If you don't want to answer, or you find that confusing then that's your problem..

 

[zinfamous]

no, you haven't.

 

[HAL9000]

no, you haven't.

I disagree.

 

[zinfamous]

I disagree.

I'm sorry, neckbeard.

But you are wrong.

 

[HAL9000]

I'm sorry, neckbeard.

But you are wrong.

In your opinion. I've explained my point. I've explained what I meant by this thread, a lot of people got it without the explanation. If you don't like it, then this isn't the thread for you.

 

[zinfamous]

In your opinion. I've explained my point. I've explained what I meant by this thread, a lot of people got it without the explanation. If you don't like it, then this isn't the thread for you.

it isn't a matter of opinion, neckbeard.

And I have every right to post in this thread. So I'm gong to keep doing that.

 

[HAL9000]

it isn't a matter of opinion, neckbeard.

And I have every right to post in this thread. So I'm gong to keep doing that.

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[RisenZealot]

But the thing is, to contradict my statement, you'd need to look for a trend of pro-lifers adopting more frequently than the overall trend. that's the telling number.

Tell me that you found that.

Nothing I said is relevant to the fact that overall adoption is low on average. You need to see the pro-lifers actually stepping up above the expected normal.

Why must I find anything to contradict a statement that can't be proven true? As I said there is no way you can prove that more pro choice people adobt as opposed to pro life. There is also no way I can prove otherwise. So what that leaves us with imo anyway is nothing but speculation.

Secondly lets just assume you are correct and that more pro choice people do adopt. How does that in anyway reflect badly on pro choice people to start with? One can have any belief system they want to, it doesn't mean that they may have the financial means to do every single thing their personal beliefs would lead them to desire.

Myself, I have a family and I am the only person that works. I have a 2 year old son and another child on the way. I'm by no means dirt poor but I am also by no means filthy rich either. To be honest my ability to provide for my family would diminish extremely if I were to try and adopt. That by the way is if I could even afford to complete an adoption in the first place. Now can you honestly say that I sound like a bad person and have no right to hold a pro life sentement simply b/c I can't adopt?

Again I'm not here to make enemies. I'm not one of those crazy religious fools who runs around screaming how anyone who disagrees with me is going to hell. I recognize your right to believe how you wish. I also recognize that I have a right to believe how I wish as well.

I guess in the end I just get upset b/c numerous times online people with any religious beliefs (specially on tech sites like this one) get talked to like they are all uneducated morons. I take offense to that as I don't consider myself ignorant or stupid.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Why must I find anything to contradict a statement that can't be proven true?

As I demonstrated, his statement is true, and supported by the very same statistics you cited yourself.

As I said there is no way you can prove that more pro choice people adobt as opposed to pro life. There is also no way I can prove otherwise. So what that leaves us with imo anyway is nothing but speculation.

It isn't really about who adopts more, but the fact that it is inconsistent for a group as a whole to be anti-abortion and (by the numbers) significantly anti-adoption.

Secondly lets just assume you are correct and that more pro choice people do adopt. How does that in anyway reflect badly on pro choice people to start with? One can have any belief system they want to, it doesn't mean that they may have the financial means to do every single thing their personal beliefs would lead them to desire.

If you don't mind being inconsistent, then be inconsistent. To most people, having a consistent worldview is important. It lends itself to sanity.

Myself, I have a family and I am the only person that works. I have a 2 year old son and another child on the way. I'm by no means dirt poor but I am also by no means filthy rich either. To be honest my ability to provide for my family would diminish extremely if I were to try and adopt. That by the way is if I could even afford to complete an adoption in the first place. Now can you honestly say that I sound like a bad person and have no right to hold a pro life sentement simply b/c I can't adopt?

It is hypocritical to want to compel another person against his/her will to shoulder the burden of raising a child that you yourself are unwilling to raise yourself.

Again I'm not here to make enemies.

Any person that would turn a woman into an involuntary incubator is my enemy. Deal with it.

I'm not one of those crazy religious fools who runs around screaming how anyone who disagrees with me is going to hell. I recognize your right to believe how you wish. I also recognize that I have a right to believe how I wish as well.

The finer points of your beliefs are not clear to me, but I can say that any person who would deny a pregnant woman equal rights to that which he himself enjoys is either ignorant or wicked.

I guess in the end I just get upset b/c numerous times online people with any religious beliefs (specially on tech sites like this one) get talked to like they are all uneducated morons. I take offense to that as I don't consider myself ignorant or stupid.

After having spent more than a decade interacting with religious people online, I can say that it is a stereotype not without abundant foundation.

 

[RisenZealot]

As I demonstrated, his statement is true, and supported by the very same statistics you cited yourself.


It isn't really about who adopts more, but the fact that it is inconsistent for a group as a whole to be anti-abortion and (by the numbers) significantly anti-adoption.


If you don't mind being inconsistent, then be inconsistent. To most people, having a consistent worldview is important. It lends itself to sanity.


It is hypocritical to want to compel another person against his/her will to shoulder the burden of raising a child that you yourself are unwilling to raise yourself.


Any person that would turn a woman into an involuntary incubator is my enemy. Deal with it.


The finer points of your beliefs are not clear to me, but I can say that any person who would deny a pregnant woman equal rights to that which he himself enjoys is either ignorant or wicked.


After having spent more than a decade interacting with religious people online, I can say that it is a stereotype not without abundant foundation.

It is in no way an inconsistent view. Maybe to someone who has a very closed mind and can only grasp simple yes and no answers would it seem that way.

In reality the world is much deeper then that. Every single person in these forums has a belief of something. For example I'm willing to bet that the majority here would be against the random killing of dogs and dog fighting in general. Does it make me inconsistent then since I don't actively go around trying to rescue dogs who are in that situation? No it doesn't. Anyone who would say that I am incosistent with that would be insane.

The fact is you sir are dealing in absolutes and extremes. It is you who in my opinion sound closed minded.

Hey what about world hunger. I happen to think that sucks and I can't stand it. I don't actively travel the world giving food to strangers though so I guess I am incosistent.

You seem intelligent but I hope by now you can see how your view is flawed in this case. By your logic EVERY SINGLE person in the world would inconsistent and eventually insane. It is simply not possible to pursue every single thing you have a belief on.

Also want it known I have never refused to care for a child or the responsibility that comes with it. It's the people who want to abort that do that.

Lastly sir I'd just like to say that if you consider me your enemy that is perfectly fine. Trust me when I say I can "deal with it" lol. Fact is I was simply being cordial. If you in all your absolutes who knows absolutely nothing about me other then that I am pro life chooses to hate me.....Well, I guess that shows your ignorance.

 

[Doppel]

I said never at all because the question is so stupid I thought I'd answer it stupidly. It's like asking what's better: Pizza that is a bit lighter no pepperoni than you normally would like or being tortured.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It is in no way an inconsistent view.

Assertions are not evidence. It is pretty clear that it is inconsistent to compel a person to endure a circumstance that you yourself are not willing to endure.

In reality the world is much deeper then that. Every single person in these forums has a belief of something. For example I'm willing to bet that the majority here would be against the random killing of dogs and dog fighting in general. Does it make me inconsistent then since I don't actively go around trying to rescue dogs who are in that situation? No it doesn't. Anyone who would say that I am incosistent with that would be insane.

It appears you have misapprehended my charge, because your attempt at analogy missed the mark considerably. I will repeat, it is inconsistent to expect others to contend with circumstances against their will when you yourself would not willingly contend with the same circumstance -- that circumstance, in this instance, being raising a child.

The fact is you sir are dealing in absolutes and extremes. It is you who in my opinion sound closed minded.

I'm dealing with facts. It is unfortunate for you that my facts are so absolutely and extremely accurate.

Hey what about world hunger. I happen to think that sucks and I can't stand it. I don't actively travel the world giving food to strangers though so I guess I am incosistent.

It is one thing to refrain from taking action against world hunger. It is another thing entirely to force someone to go hungry under penalty of law whilst you yourself feast in abundance.

Also want it known I have never refused to care for a child or the responsibility that comes with it. It's the people who want to abort that do that.

Will you care for Joshua?

Lastly sir I'd just like to say that if you consider me your enemy that is perfectly fine. Trust me when I say I can "deal with it" lol. Fact is I was simply being cordial. If you in all your absolutes who knows absolutely nothing about me other then that I am pro life chooses to hate me.....Well, I guess that shows your ignorance.

I know enough about the abortion debate to understand that anyone who does not favor a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body is either ignorant or wicked. In either case, that person is no friend of mine.

 

[RisenZealot]

I respect a womans right to do as she pleases with her own body 100%. I do not however believe when a woman choses abortion she is effecting only her body as there is another life involved. At the moment I'm pleased to not be considered your friend.

Regardless lets go back to your statement of...

"It isn't really about who adopts more, but the fact that it is inconsistent for a group as a whole to be anti-abortion and (by the numbers) significantly anti-adoption."

You say they are anti adoption but it's such an ignorant statement. Even if you can prove they are not adopting (which you can't you only think you can b/c somehow you have the ability to read minds) that does not make them anti adoption.

I'm sure you will tell me how these examples are poor and how I "missed the mark" ( I can see by the way that any view that is not in 100% agreement with yours will "miss the mark") but I'll give em to ya anyway.

I do not like soccer and I do not play it. I am not however anti soccer as I have nothing against it. I also do not like to eat salads, they are just not my thing. However I am not anti salads. I also do not dance, however once again I am not anti dancing. Simple fact is I can go on and on with millions of examples of how your view is incosistent itself. Which by the way is hillariously ironic seing as how it was YOU who were calling people incosistent. To make it easy for you. Just because you do not do "something" does not mean you are anti "something".

Let me just say that it is my belief (does not mean I am right) that life begins at time of conception. That is why imo a woman rights to chose is not fair b/c she is chosing for another life as well. It is no longer only HER body.

Now I will say that if you do not believe life begins there then you are 100% correct and I agree with you completely that it should be her choice. The thing is though we both have contradicting views there. So my thing is if you cannot respect my right to believe life begins at conception then why should I respect your belief that it doesn't.

This is important b/c if you remember I never started out by saying any of this. I was simply saying it's unfair to judge pro life people as being anti adoption. It was you who made it personal and started talking about abortion itself and the different views there in.

Do you not see the danger in that? History is littered with fools of various religions and various other beliefs going to war and killing people simply b/c they could not for any reason respect anothers persons view and simply get a long. Funny, as you are most sertanly someone who blames religion for most of those wars yet you yourself by declaring me an enemy is doing the EXACT same thing they did back in the day.

I find you highly entertaining sir. I don't say that sarcasticly. You have many great points and it's fun to debate them with ya.

 

[zinfamous]

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I am not agreeing with your insanity, neckbeard.

oh, did you just log out and jump onto your other new account?

:hmm:

 

[RisenZealot]

I am not agreeing with your insanity, neckbeard.

oh, did you just log out and jump onto your other new account?

:hmm:

I hope you are not referring to me. I don't know what I have to do or what I can do to prove I am not the troll you guys can't stand but if you can think of a way for me to make it clear please tell me and I will.

 

[zinfamous]

I hope you are not referring to me. I don't know what I have to do or what I can do to prove I am not the troll you guys can't stand but if you can think of a way for me to make it clear please tell me and I will.

eh, you'll eventually stop siding with neckbeard, I know I sure as hell did. (I was one of the last stragglers.)

So, probably when that happens.

😉

but, even if you start disagreeing with him, it could just be another neckbeard "episode"

 

[RisenZealot]

Well so far I've only sided with him on one issue. Granted I haven't been around for awhile and this has been the only thing I've seen to take a side on lol.

Honestly judging from the way you guys treat him I doubt I'll side with him much. I know there is a stereotype out there that religious people are all closed minded but I assure you I'm not. There are very few issues where I take a stand and consider myself correct. Even then only a fool would ssy it's impossible to be wrong.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I respect a womans right to do as she pleases with her own body 100%. I do not however believe when a woman choses abortion she is effecting only her body as there is another life involved.

The latter statement is irrelevant to the first one. Nobody, born or unborn, has the unqualified right to occupy the body of another person, forcibly respirate and nourish from that persons blood stream, and inject that person with hormones and waste. You might as well argue that persons have no right to defend themselves with lethal force against armed assailants. After all, to do so would affect another life involved.

You say they are anti adoption but it's such an ignorant statement. Even if you can prove they are not adopting (which you can't you only think you can b/c somehow you have the ability to read minds) that does not make them anti adoption.

When only a very tiny minority of a certain population actually adopts, it is accurate to say that the population in general is not in favor of adopting. Paying it lip service is meaningless.

I do not like soccer and I do not play it. I am not however anti soccer as I have nothing against it.

In two sentences you managed to affirm that you do not like soccer but you are not anti-soccer. Disliking X by definition means you are anti-X. You can say that you are not anti-someone-else-playing-soccer, but that is another thing entirely. I'd easily stipulate that the pro-life population in general is in favor of anyone else but themselves shouldering the burden of rearing unwanted children, but that doesn't exactly absolve the inconsistency inherent in being willing to compel another person to shoulder a burden you yourself are unwilling to endure.

I also do not like to eat salads, they are just not my thing. However I am not anti salads. I also do not dance, however once again I am not anti dancing. Simple fact is I can go on and on with millions of examples of how your view is incosistent itself. Which by the way is hillariously ironic seing as how it was YOU who were calling people incosistent. To make it easy for you. Just because you do not do "something" does not mean you are anti "something".

It is not your failure to do X that makes you anti-X. It is your professed dislike of X that makes you anti-X.

Let me just say that it is my belief (does not mean I am right) that life begins at time of conception. That is why imo a woman rights to chose is not fair b/c she is chosing for another life as well.

Life, if it began at all, appears to have done so on this planet some many millions of years ago. Conception is merely the propagation of life, not its beginning. Life existed before conception and it will so after.

Furthermore, the objects of rights and duties in the United States are persons, and persons are born.

It is no longer only HER body.

Nobody owns another person's body or any part or portion thereof. We abolished slavery a long time ago also. Her body is therefore only her body.

Now I will say that if you do not believe life begins there then you are 100% correct and I agree with you completely that it should be her choice. The thing is though we both have contradicting views there. So my thing is if you cannot respect my right to believe life begins at conception then why should I respect your belief that it doesn't.

I do not respect your belief that life begins at conception because it is demonstrably false.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I hope you are not referring to me. I don't know what I have to do or what I can do to prove I am not the troll you guys can't stand but if you can think of a way for me to make it clear please tell me and I will.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that you are him. I certainly don't.

 

[RisenZealot]

Nobody owns another person's body or any part or portion thereof. We abolished slavery a long time ago also. Her body is therefore only her body.

I do not respect your belief that life begins at conception because it is demonstrably false.

If no one owns anothers body then how can you justify abortion in cases where the fetus has clearly developed into a life?

Regardless we could argue that all day long. Judging by your last sentence of what I quoted it's obvious you are a closed minded individual who has no respect or common decency towards anyone elses opinion if it differs from your own.

I want it known that I was completely open to the possibility of you being correct and tried to be as civil as possible. You were the one who could not find enough to warrent any form of mutual respect.

With that said continued discussion with you would do nothing but drag us both down further. I will continue this with anyone else who wished but my conversation with you is absolutely over in this matter. You may of course post and have the last words that is A ok with me. Do not expect a reply in way shape or form towards you.

*edit* I am not saying I will ignore you on everything. That would be completely asinine of me. I am only saying that towards this discussion as obviously we are both at a brick wall.