Is it bad to be "rich"?

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Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
0
0
Personally its annoying but I can live with it.

But what kills me the most are when people "ShawnD1 here for example" says you use "free this and free that."

People need to understand that nothing is FREE. There is no such thing as FREE health care or FREE public roads.

Just because it is FREE TO you doesn't mean it is FREE TO everyone.


I understand that given the opportunity people will always vote themselves a larger piece of someone else's pie but just don't tell me its FUCKING FREE while you are taking it.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
In the lie that is your philosophy, you own everything. But, since it is a lie, you really have nothing. I'm sorry that pisses you off, but that doesn't give you a claim to the things of real value which I possess.
The lie is that it was yours in the first place. Just because your employer printed some imaginary numbers on your pay stub doesn't mean it was really your money. Part of what you "earn" belongs to society because it is our society -- i.e., America's extraordinary physical, financial, and educational resources, substantially funded through taxes -- that enabled you to "earn" your pay at all. Without it, you'd be digging for roots and grubs to survive, and your "wealth" would be measured in pretty rocks.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
To answer the OP, there is nothing wrong with wealth per se. There is much wrong with greed, and everything wrong with exploiting others to obtain wealth.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
We hate rich people for how much they gripe about the amount of "TAXES" they pay and their memory problems with the money they "OWE" taxes on.
Except it's generally not the rich who gripe about taxes. Some of the most prominent examples are people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates who've said they should pay more. It's the wanna-be rich who've deluded themselves into believing they would become rich if only it wasn't for taxes. It's easier to blame the poor for their self-perceived lack of success than to either admit they aren't good enough, smart enough, and hard-working enough to become wealthy, or to acknowledge their faith is misguided when they claim that hard work can make anyone rich.
 
Last edited:
Nov 30, 2006
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To answer the OP, there is nothing wrong with wealth per se. There is much wrong with greed, and everything wrong with exploiting others to obtain wealth.
Do the rich exploit the middle class to obtain their wealth? I would say 'yes'. Do the middle class exploit others to obtain their wealth? I would say 'no'. Yet the 'middle class' is where most of the money is in our economy will bear the brunt of ever increasing entitlements. No?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,802
6,358
126
First of all, the POWER to tax is not a DUTY to tax (see amendment 16). Second, the power to tax does not give anyone a claim to another's money, much less a right to it.

1) I'll give you that since it's pretty much Moot
2) Uhh, what do you think "Tax" is?

Sorry, you are justifiably Taxed. If you disagree, that's too bad, get the Law changed.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,802
6,358
126
Do the rich exploit the middle class to obtain their wealth? I would say 'yes'. Do the middle class exploit others to obtain their wealth? I would say 'no'. Yet the 'middle class' is where most of the money is in our economy will bear the brunt of ever increasing entitlements. No?

Most of the Money might be there, but not most of the Wealth.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
The lie is that it was yours in the first place. Just because your employer printed some imaginary numbers on your pay stub doesn't mean it was really your money. Part of what you "earn" belongs to society because it is our society -- i.e., America's extraordinary physical, financial, and educational resources, substantially funded through taxes -- that enabled you to "earn" your pay at all. Without it, you'd be digging for roots and grubs to survive, and your "wealth" would be measured in pretty rocks.
The bottom line is that "society" has never invented anything. Individuals and groups of people have invented things, resulting in a raising of the bottom line for everyone that takes advantage of said invention. Your misattribute all of these things to "society" because it's convenient for your worldview. You assume that all of these things which you attribute to society would not exist without society, without noticing that society did not create them. You also confuse society with government. In the end, you cannot understand reality because your premises are so bassackwards.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
1) I'll give you that since it's pretty much Moot
2) Uhh, what do you think "Tax" is?

Sorry, you are justifiably Taxed. If you disagree, that's too bad, get the Law changed.
In other words, you can't argue with me, so you'll just tell me, "Tough - get over it." You have no right to my money: you only have a need for it.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
No. The amount of money in your bank account is irrelevant. There are plenty of bad poor people too. Is being materialistic bad? Probably. Plenty of materialistic poor people too.

PS According to the New Testament it's pretty clear that being rich is immoral. Always fun to see Christians try to weasel out of that one though.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Do the rich exploit the middle class to obtain their wealth? I would say 'yes'. Do the middle class exploit others to obtain their wealth? I would say 'no'. Yet the 'middle class' is where most of the money is in our economy will bear the brunt of ever increasing entitlements. No?
I absolutely agree, and I made a comment about this in the "entitled to my wealth" thread (or something like that). It is indeed the middle class and especially the upper middle class who are subsidizing both the poor and the very rich. Unfortunately, most people who complain about "wealth transfer" see only the hand-outs to the have-nots and not the hand-outs to the have-mores.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
The bottom line is that "society" has never invented anything. Individuals and groups of people have invented things, resulting in a raising of the bottom line for everyone that takes advantage of said invention. Your misattribute all of these things to "society" because it's convenient for your worldview. You assume that all of these things which you attribute to society would not exist without society, without noticing that society did not create them.
Absolutely true, and I fully support those inventive and creative individuals being rewarded for innovation that advances society. That doesn't mean they shouldn't also help pay for the resources that gave the foundation to develop and market their innovation.


You also confuse society with government. In the end, you cannot understand reality because your premises are so bassackwards.
Or maybe you're just so blindly partisan you can't accept that you aren't all-knowing and that contrary views can and often do have merit.
 

Soltis

Member
Mar 2, 2010
114
0
0
The bottom line is that "society" has never invented anything. Individuals and groups of people have invented things, resulting in a raising of the bottom line for everyone that takes advantage of said invention. Your misattribute all of these things to "society" because it's convenient for your worldview. You assume that all of these things which you attribute to society would not exist without society, without noticing that society did not create them. You also confuse society with government. In the end, you cannot understand reality because your premises are so bassackwards.

Cyclo I think you may have missed one of my posts on the bottom of the first page, I hate being the last post on a page:\

Also, while I understand where you are comming from, ultimately its a trade-off. Society and Government are made of every individual that is a part of it. For the most part, the majority usually has control over what's what, even if that is more taxes and restrictions. We accept this because ultimately its somewhat of a small trade-off for what we gain; public schools, hospitals, fire departments, but also we gain things like a standard currency, and access to a mass clientele. You may lose out some of your money to the pitfalls of society, but in the long run having a market to sell things to and a standard of doing work and getting paid is worth it. Most people get "rich" or make vast wealth by selling to the masses I would think, which would be near impossible if there were no "society" or a giant "connection" or people. In the end, you have to choose between losing some of your money to the wolves and still living good, or having every cent you earned right alongside you on a deserted island.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,802
6,358
126
So you admit that you are using the government as an extortioner to take money from others and give it to yourself? Do you think that this is morally justifiable?

:rolleyes:

Government has programs that they see as beneficial for the whole. It is their Constitutional Right/Duty to do so. Sorry.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Absolutely true, and I fully support those inventive and creative individuals being rewarded for innovation that advances society. That doesn't mean they shouldn't also help pay for the resources that gave the foundation to develop and market their innovation.
You are forcing them to pay for the infrastructure, then claiming that because they have to use the infrastructure they paid for, they must continue to pay for it. The "resources" that gave them that foundation were their own, or those of a previous generation. "Society" does not generate any resources. At best, it can simply pool them together for the common good.
Or maybe you're just so blindly partisan you can't accept that you aren't all-knowing and that contrary views can and often do have merit.
And which side am I beholden to? I have no representation in our government at this point, and I've never been a member of any political party. I don't have a dog in the fight. I simply object to those who claim that their need gives them a right to what I have earned. To be fair, you have made just about the best argument I've seen for why "society" might have some claim to what I've earned, but it still falls apart because society as a whole cannot contribute anything - only its members can.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,447
216
106
When you live in a 'society' you have agreed that to mutual benefit you will be taxed to have service rendered.
Now how much that is and what you agreed to for service is the debate. Historically private enterprise has proven unreliable to meet the common good for all in a society.

You can't do it all by yourself in spite of the fantasy of independance . If you want to have the decades longer life expectancy complex society provides this is how we get there.
Man's collective efforts is what makes us the dominant species on the planet 'right or wrong'
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,802
6,358
126
Answer the question: is it morally justifiable to extort money from one group to give it to another?

It is entirely Justifiable to Tax a Group and provide for the Needs of another.

Your use of words just makes you look like an Idiot. Sorry.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Cyclo I think you may have missed one of my posts on the bottom of the first page, I hate being the last post on a page:\

Also, while I understand where you are comming from, ultimately its a trade-off. Society and Government are made of every individual that is a part of it. For the most part, the majority usually has control over what's what, even if that is more taxes and restrictions. We accept this because ultimately its somewhat of a small trade-off for what we gain; public schools, hospitals, fire departments, but also we gain things like a standard currency, and access to a mass clientele. You may lose out some of your money to the pitfalls of society, but in the long run having a market to sell things to and a standard of doing work and getting paid is worth it. Most people get "rich" or make vast wealth by selling to the masses I would think, which would be near impossible if there were no "society" or a giant "connection" or people. In the end, you have to choose between losing some of your money to the wolves and still living good, or having every cent you earned right alongside you on a deserted island.
The problem is well illustrated in your list of what we "gain" from taking part in society:
1. Public schools: public schools are a huge scam, are much more expensive per student than private schools, and nearly always give an inferior education. There are always exceptions, but here they are few and far between. Thus, if the government stopped spending the money of private citizens on public schools, private schools would pop up to fill the supply gap and the quality of education would likely increase while the percentage of GDP spent on this education would decrease.

2. Hospitals: the best hospitals in this country are private. Public hospitals generally perform at a far lower level than an equivalently funded private hospital. If you were sick in St. Louis and had a choice, would you go to the John Cochran VA hospital (a government-run hospital), or to Barnes-Jewish (a private hospital associated with Washington University School of Medicine)? Only an idiot would choose the government hospital. Yet the budgets for the two are very similar, and the same arguments I made for public schools largely apply here.

3. Fire departments: fire departments used to be private, and why not? Early in this country's history, fire departments were private and citizens would pay to cover their houses. If you go to Charleston, SC, you can still see the emblems of the various fire companies on the houses they covered. Now, fire departments are unionized and have driven their costs through the roof in many cities, forcing the cities to make hard decisions about how many employees they can afford. It's not politically feasible to fire a fireman, after all, and since it is a public monopoly, there is no rational basis for setting a wage. If you look at the news from my home town of Muncie, IN, you will see that this is a real problem, especially in smaller communities. Its population has declined from 80,000 to close to 60,000 over the last 20 years, but the number of firefighters has stayed the same. The per capita income has similarly dropped, but the wages of firefighters has continued to rise. Privatizing these fire companies would force them to break even, setting a rational basis for wages and likely decreasing costs for everyone who wants coverage. If you have a mortgage, your bank would probably require you to have coverage from one of these companies, so they could negotiate the rates for you.

I think these points are an excellent way to illustrate that things which have always been seen as necessary functions of government are actually better performed by non-government entities.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
It is entirely Justifiable to Tax a Group and provide for the Needs of another.

Your use of words just makes you look like an Idiot. Sorry.
My use of words makes me look like an idiot? Everyone on this forum uses words to express ideas. I'm sorry that the use of language is below your superior intellect. :eek:
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
When you live in a 'society' you have agreed that to mutual benefit you will be taxed to have service rendered.
Now how much that is and what you agreed to for service is the debate. Historically private enterprise has proven unreliable to meet the common good for all in a society.

You can't do it all by yourself in spite of the fantasy of independance . If you want to have the decades longer life expectancy complex society provides this is how we get there.
Man's collective efforts is what makes us the dominant species on the planet 'right or wrong'
If what you say is true, then ants would be at the top of the food chain. Why is that not the case?