Is it a privilege to be born white? Do blacks have disadvantages?

[geno]

Originally posted by: Spooner
I'm not touching this one.

not with a ten-foot clown pole.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Skoorb

NO ONE is born advantaged or disadvantaged. It's what one makes of oneself throughout life. I'm sure there are people born to millionaires and billionaires who've had a golden road laid before them and screw it up and are complete wastes of life. Then, there are people born with literally nothing, in a third world country and grow to become successful or emigrate to the U.S. and startup a business or something and make something of themselves.

That's idealistic and seems to indicate that you think we all start off with a clean slate, which isn't true. A child of a doctor and lawyer is far more likely to have themselves such a profession than a child of two janitors. The former child will have more encouragement to excel in their studies, more money thrown at them for private schooling, university, etc.

Money doesn't equal advantage. Opportunity equals advantage. Everyone has similar opportunites. It boils down to how much support and encouragement a child gets from its parents. Plenty of doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. made it thru public schools and state universities.

I think the presumption is "all things being equal" money can buy a lot more opportunities for children than willpower can.

 

[Deeko]

Yea, blacks have a signifigant disadvantage: because of their race they get an automatic edge over equally qualified whites in job/college searching

oh wait, thats an ADVANTAGE, my bad.

 

[StageLeft]

Money doesn't equal advantage. Opportunity equals advantage. Everyone has similar opportunites.

If opportunity equals advantage I'll say that money equals opportunity. If you live in a poor area and go to a crappy school you will have less oppotunity to a good education than somebody who's getting trucked to a private rich school everyday. And when it comes time for university if your parents have money saved for that you will have more opportunities there.

It boils down to how much support and encouragement a child gets from its parents.

Parents from a highly educated well to do background are more likely to encourage their kids towards the same goal than lower educated and lower class parents.

Classes tend to be fairly consistent, with overlap here and there as people rise or fall below what they were brought up in. But a poor kid born to low-class parents is less likely to be rich and successful in the future than a rich kid born to high-class parents. For every poverty kid who becomes a doctor you've got a dozen who became doctors from middle and or upper class families. I went to a private school. Out of all the people who graduated with me in grade 12 guess how many are making minimum wage working at mcdonalds? Exactly zero. They are ALL university educated now. That's more than we can say for the grade 12 kids who went to the local highschool. It was expected of us and for the most part our parents paid our way through, at least undergrad. That's a major advantage. And this is also why I'll be saving for my child's university education the second their umbilical is cut.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Redhotjrm

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Skoorb

NO ONE is born advantaged or disadvantaged. It's what one makes of oneself throughout life. I'm sure there are people born to millionaires and billionaires who've had a golden road laid before them and screw it up and are complete wastes of life. Then, there are people born with literally nothing, in a third world country and grow to become successful or emigrate to the U.S. and startup a business or something and make something of themselves.

That's idealistic and seems to indicate that you think we all start off with a clean slate, which isn't true. A child of a doctor and lawyer is far more likely to have themselves such a profession than a child of two janitors. The former child will have more encouragement to excel in their studies, more money thrown at them for private schooling, university, etc.

Money doesn't equal advantage. Opportunity equals advantage. Everyone has similar opportunites. It boils down to how much support and encouragement a child gets from its parents. Plenty of doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. made it thru public schools and state universities.

Conjur you're speaking idealistically and individually... which is fine, but try to look at it at a societal level, not an individual level.

Maybe I'm looking at things with rose-colored glasses but I don't buy into the "woe is me...I can't go to college and get a career because I was born into a poor family."

That's B.S.

Parental support and encouragement is the key. Now, it may be a statistical fact that minority x has more problem homes than majority a and that leads to fewer children going to college and having a career. But, there's nothing set in stone. It's just as easy to grow up a bum when born white as it is when born black, red, yellow, green or purple.

 

[0roo0roo]

its a privilege to be born in america.


blacks in america enjoy the highest standards of living of blacks in the world.


i seem to remember something about how black immigrants from africa do better then african americans.

slavery exists in africa to this very day.

Slavery is still very much a part of life for too many. According to Anti-Slavery International, over 20 million people are in bondage. Even children are subject to the horrors described by the President - UNICEF estimates that 200,000 children from West and Central Africa are sold into slavery each year. In 2000, the State Department reported that over 15,000 children between the ages of nine and 12 "have been sold into forced labor on plantations" (globalexchange.org).

http://www.teenink.com/Past/2003/September/16898.html

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Classes tend to be fairly consistent, with overlap here and there as people rise or fall below what they were brought up in. But a poor kid born to low-class parents is less likely to be rich and successful in the future than a rich kid born to high-class parents. For every poverty kid who becomes a doctor you've got a dozen who became doctors from middle and or upper class families. I went to a private school. Out of all the people who graduated with me in grade 12 guess how many are making minimum wage working at mcdonalds? Exactly zero. They are ALL university educated now. That's more than we can say for the grade 12 kids who went to the local highschool. It was expected of us and for the most part our parents paid our way through, at least undergrad. That's a major advantage. And this is also why I'll be saving for my child's university education the second their umbilical is cut.

I guess I'd have to agree with this...maybe I've been mistating my opinion. Race, imo, has nothing to do with advantage. And, I still believe class is not the overall deciding factor as to whether one becomes successful or not. Parenting is probably the most important factor.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Classes tend to be fairly consistent, with overlap here and there as people rise or fall below what they were brought up in. But a poor kid born to low-class parents is less likely to be rich and successful in the future than a rich kid born to high-class parents. For every poverty kid who becomes a doctor you've got a dozen who became doctors from middle and or upper class families. I went to a private school. Out of all the people who graduated with me in grade 12 guess how many are making minimum wage working at mcdonalds? Exactly zero. They are ALL university educated now. That's more than we can say for the grade 12 kids who went to the local highschool. It was expected of us and for the most part our parents paid our way through, at least undergrad. That's a major advantage. And this is also why I'll be saving for my child's university education the second their umbilical is cut.

I guess I'd have to agree with this...maybe I've been mistating my opinion. Race, imo, has nothing to do with advantage. And, I still believe class is not the overall deciding factor as to whether one becomes successful or not. Parenting is probably the most important factor.

Probably is the most important, but class definitely helps! Race is harder to nail down because you can't tell if somebody is doing badly because of their race of because of their class (and since certain races make up a disproportionate of certain classes you can't always separate the two).

 

[isaacmacdonald]

I guess I'd have to agree with this...maybe I've been mistating my opinion. Race, imo, has nothing to do with advantage. And, I still believe class is not the overall deciding factor as to whether one becomes successful or not. Parenting is probably the most important factor.

The thing I'm not sure about is if there is that much of a discrepancy between the majority of parents of any class. Most are mediocre, some are really great, some are really bad. What we're looking at is mediocre parents who either can or can't afford to provide more opportunities for their children. If minority families statistically have less money/child, I would have to assume they have less opportunities.

Yes it is true that an individual can overcome difficulties, but that's a question of potential not actualization.

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Originally posted by: conjur

Money doesn't equal advantage. Opportunity equals advantage. Everyone has similar opportunites. It boils down to how much support and encouragement a child gets from its parents. Plenty of doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. made it thru public schools and state universities.

And money equals opportunity. Parents can love and support their children, but given equally supportive parents, the richer ones can provide better opportunities. Consider the affordability of educational toys, increasing numbers of school activities which require participant funding as opposed to being footed by the schools themselves, Internet access. Even the amount of family time together can be affected by income levels if parents need to work extended hours.

No one is saying that opportunity doesn't exist everywhere, but I think you're willfully ignoring that it's far easier to create more opportunity with means than without.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

also note the quality of public schools in affluent communities is vastly higher than those in low income areas.

 

[yellowperil]

Well, blacks have enjoyed equal legal status with whites for the past ~35 years. But blacks still get eyed more suspiciously by the police, store owners, employers, etc. day in, day out, and that is a significant psychological disadvantage. It is a similar burden with Hispanics.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Yes, but it's almost entirely impossible to identify with numbers this trend, although I believe it to be so. While a person's color may make them more or less likely to have a certain job or criminal history, or whatever else, there are also cultural reasons and their upbringing, so if a person says that there are 4 times as many blacks in jail as whites (for instance), one can't presume to think that judges are far more biased against blacks to account for that, just as one can't presume that blacks are exactly 4 times as likely to commit a crime (or even more since they are a minority of the population). Many different factors affect it all!

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Your question is too simplistic. It isn't just about skin color of a child's family, its also about the income, the location, the social connections, the education, and only god knows what else.

There is no level playing field, there never was. But race isn't the only factor.

 

[Freejack2]

It really tends to vary I think.
Being a minority can have it's advantages. If a person knows how to navigate the system they will find a lot of scholarships and whatnot for college that are available for minorities.
On the other hand there still is discrimination going on. Jim and Joe apply for a job, Their resumes are identical in every way. The only difference between them? Jim is white, and Joe is a minority. Many times Jim will get the job because he is white.

Far as I'm concerned it's just a color of the skin, what's important to me is what the person is like on the inside.

 

[m2kewl]

Originally posted by: Spooner
I'm not touching this one.

 

[TooOne21]

He is extremely thorough and passionate about African-American studies.

No kidding? :Q

 

[CrazyDe1]

Girls like black guys...black guys can jump...they also have bigger units >=P

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Redhotjrm
"Is it a privilege to be born white? Do blacks have disadvantages?" This is not a racial flamefest... it is simply a question of personal belief based on personal experiences.

This topic is going to be discussed in my African-American studies class this afternoon.

I believe my answer is going to be that yes... it is an advantage to being born white because blacks are born into byproducts of slavery (racism, discrimination, prejudice). If slavery hadn't existed, these byproducts would not still be around today.

EDIT: BTW, this class is tought by a black adjunct professor who is one of the best teachers I've ever had. He is extremely thorough and passionate about African-American studies.

slavery existed for a long time absent racism. it wasn't until slavery started being thought of as bad that the racialist arguments came up.

 

[Nyical]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Spooner
I'm not touching this one.

/pulls up Nomex(TM) lawnchair

/puts on sunglasses

Popcorn, Spooner?

- M4H

Your gonna need more then that Nomex(TM) lawnchair for this one

 

[Mani]

I'd say it is far better to be born white. The good ol' boys network is alive and well, and in ways, is more pervasive than affirmative action. The fact that management positions are disproportionately white is evidence of this. And the higher up you go, the less minorities you find.

As the old saying goes, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Whites are more likely to know whites, either by family or friend ties. I know FAR more people who have gotten into a job by having the right ties than who have gotten into a job from affirmative action. The term for this is institutional racism, which I think is a bit harsh because it implies that it is intentional discrimination based on skin color, but the fact does remain that it benefits whites disproportionately, since they are the majority in upper-level positions in companies.

I really wonder if the people who say minorities have it better have ever experienced the psychological anguish being called racial slurs as a child or led to believe you were inferior because of something you can't change. Or if these people have ever walked into a store and had everyone there look at them suspiciously. Or noticed people intentionally avoiding them out of fear because of some racial stereotype. Or finding themselves having to counter other peoples' preconcieved notions of them based on their race in every conversation they participate in. Or found themselves subject to "security checks" every time they walk into an airport.

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that because they benefit from some halfassed government attempt at correcting past predjudices, that minorities have it better. It's clear that the people saying this have no idea what it is like to be a minority in america.

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: Mani
I'd say it is far better to be born white. The good ol' boys network is alive and well, and in ways, is more pervasive than affirmative action. The fact that management positions are disproportionately white is evidence of this. And the higher up you go, the less minorities you find.

As the old saying goes, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Whites are more likely to know whites, either by family or friend ties. I know FAR more people who have gotten into a job by having the right ties than who have gotten into a job from affirmative action. The term for this is institutional racism, which I think is a bit harsh because it implies that it is intentional discrimination based on skin color, but the fact does remain that it benefits whites disproportionately, since they are the majority in upper-level positions in companies.

I really wonder if the people who say minorities have it better have ever experienced the psychological anguish being called racial slurs as a child or led to believe you were inferior because of something you can't change. Or if these people have ever walked into a store and had everyone there look at them suspiciously. Or noticed people intentionally avoiding them out of fear because of some racial stereotype. Or finding themselves having to counter other peoples' preconcieved notions of them based on their race in every conversation they participate in. Or found themselves subject to "security checks" every time they walk into an airport.

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that because they benefit from some halfassed government attempt at correcting past predjudices, that minorities have it better. It's clear that the people saying this have no idea what it is like to be a minority in america.

blah blah blah - all a black person has to do to get into med school is graduate from a good school with a 2.5 GPA and take the MCAT - 100% acceptance rate. A white student has to get a 3.0 (absolute minimum to have a shot) 80%ile+ on the MCAT and then face the 50/50 odds

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: Mani
I'd say it is far better to be born white. The good ol' boys network is alive and well, and in ways, is more pervasive than affirmative action. The fact that management positions are disproportionately white is evidence of this. And the higher up you go, the less minorities you find.

As the old saying goes, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Whites are more likely to know whites, either by family or friend ties. I know FAR more people who have gotten into a job by having the right ties than who have gotten into a job from affirmative action. The term for this is institutional racism, which I think is a bit harsh because it implies that it is intentional discrimination based on skin color, but the fact does remain that it benefits whites disproportionately, since they are the majority in upper-level positions in companies.

I really wonder if the people who say minorities have it better have ever experienced the psychological anguish being called racial slurs as a child or led to believe you were inferior because of something you can't change. Or if these people have ever walked into a store and had everyone there look at them suspiciously. Or noticed people intentionally avoiding them out of fear because of some racial stereotype. Or finding themselves having to counter other peoples' preconcieved notions of them based on their race in every conversation they participate in. Or found themselves subject to "security checks" every time they walk into an airport.

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that because they benefit from some halfassed government attempt at correcting past predjudices, that minorities have it better. It's clear that the people saying this have no idea what it is like to be a minority in america.

blah blah blah - all a black person has to do to get into med school is graduate from a good school with a 2.5 GPA and take the MCAT - 100% acceptance rate. A white student has to get a 3.0 (absolute minimum to have a shot) 80%ile+ on the MCAT and then face the 50/50 odds

Nobody's disputing that. But to say that blacks have it better overall because they have an easier time getting into med school is still stupid.

 

[zixxer]

I'm so sick of minorities complaining about unfair disadvantages.


Here's my point of view; from atlanta, ga:

I drive by the local trailer park.. what do I see?? 30-50 black young men (early-mid twenties) playing basketball, beating each other up, etc. Probably while pulling in their welfare check (38% of my paycheck...)..... while the local best buy is BEGGING for unskilled labor for stocking, etc. etc.

why dont they get a job? racial prejudice?? NO. laziness. This is strewn all across the cities of america. Wake up people.

 

[conjur]

38% of your check goes to welfare, eh?