Is Israeli a US ally or political liability?

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Micheal Orens, Israeli ambassador to the US has penning an article asking just that question
in foreign policy magazine. As he states, proving Israel is an ally and not a liability is now the most important thing he can do. As for me, I think the USA and the world should welcome the open debate.


http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=218011

The first thing Oren's honestly says, is that there are many American foreign policy wonks, who seriously advocate that present Israeli liabilities to the USA now far outweigh the present miniscule Israeli assets.


But a closer look at the article starts with the assertion that Israel and American share the same values?

Since when did the US assert that religious freedom, the ability to control its destiny and voting rights, belonged to only the members of one set of immigrants. Even at the height of American slavery, America only enslaved 14% of its population, while Israel over a 150 years later, still holds a full 30% of its population in perpetual third class citizenship.

But the bulk of the Oren's article reflects on a political reality that will only slowly change. Namely the fact that most of the American population are accustomed to favorably Israel to the extent of about 68%. How deeply those values are held is another question, but we can expect that this is a wedge Israeli will use.

Moreover, for the GOP its pure gold, a costless way to attack Obama for the next year.

But we can ask, what happens if the GOP wins the Presidency in 11/2012? And then when GOP policy wonks come to the conclusion that they can't afford to support a new rapidly turning fascist Israel without losing all of our allies, then Israel will have only a bought a few more years?

Also note the side article written by Petraeus outlining why the Present Israel policy has already tuned into a present liability.

My only remaining comment and I wonder why no one makes the point, some changes in present Israeli government policy could transform Israel back into a entire world asset.
 
Last edited:

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
This thread should be locked in favor of one of the other numerous threads you have opened discussing Israel. Honestly, stop spamming this shit.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
OK glenn1 and infohawk, adopt the strategy of the Ostrich and stick your heads in a hole. I can bring this to your attention now, or you can wait a month or two before its still becomes a national and international debate along the same lines.

If nothing else its proves, what I am saying is shared by many inside and outside of Israel.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Micheal Orens, Israeli ambassador to the US has penning an article asking just that question
in foreign policy magazine. As he states, proving Israel is an ally and not a liability is now the most important thing he can do. As for me, I think the USA and the world should welcome the open debate.


http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=218011

The first thing Oren's honestly says, is that there are many American foreign policy wonks, who seriously advocate that present Israeli liabilities to the USA now far outweigh the present miniscule Israeli assets.


But a closer look at the article starts with the assertion that Israel and American share the same values?

Since when did the US assert that religious freedom, the ability to control its destiny and voting rights, belonged to only the members of one set of immigrants. Even at the height of American slavery, America only enslaved 14% of its population, while Israel over a 150 years later, still holds a full 30% of its population in perpetual third class citizenship.

But the bulk of the Oren's article reflects on a political reality that will only slowly change. Namely the fact that most of the American population are accustomed to favorably Israel to the extent of about 68%. How deeply those values are held is another question, but we can expect that this is a wedge Israeli will use.

Moreover, for the GOP its pure gold, a costless way to attack Obama for the next year.

But we can ask, what happens if the GOP wins the Presidency in 11/2012? And then when GOP policy wonks come to the conclusion that they can't afford to support a new rapidly turning fascist Israel without losing all of our allies, then Israel will have only a bought a few more years?

Also note the side article written by Petraeus outlining why the Present Israel policy has already tuned into a present liability.

My only remaining comment and I wonder why no one makes the point, some changes in present Israeli government policy could transform Israel back into a entire world asset.



the Israeli arabs, that live in israel, hold FULL EQUAL rights that jews have.


those in the west bank and gaza (WHICH YOU SAY IS NOT PART OF ISRAEL) dont.

simple as that.


cant have it both ways.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
oh and for the topic title.

Obvious US Ally.

israel shared billions of dollars worth of soviet technology during the cold war, they constantly improve US military technologies, share technologies like the iron dome, have many american companies with facilities there,

and, as of right now, the only democratically elected country in the middle east.

EDIT: two more:

1. Israel also has trained many american troops on disarming bombs, for when we invaded iraq in 2003 and needed help

more of a world thing, but

2. After the tsunami in Indonesia a few years ago, israel sent in the first (aka before any other nation) group of international support. they also donated tsunami detectors to Indonesia

after the haitian tsunami, israel were one of the first responders, they also were the First to set up a field hospital to help the sick and injured.

After the japanese tsunami, israel also quickly responded.
 
Last edited:

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
oh and for the topic title.

Obvious US Ally.

israel shared billions of dollars worth of soviet technology during the cold war, they constantly improve US military technologies, share technologies like the iron dome, have many american companies with facilities there,

and, as of right now, the only democratically elected country in the middle east.

But! But! The JEWS! THE JEWS!!!!!
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
American has no permanent friends or enemies. We do, however, like other countries, have permanent self interests.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
OK glenn1 and infohawk, adopt the strategy of the Ostrich and stick your heads in a hole. I can bring this to your attention now, or you can wait a month or two before its still becomes a national and international debate along the same lines.

If nothing else its proves, what I am saying is shared by many inside and outside of Israel.

You don't bring anything to anyone's attention. Do you think you're some news source? You're just a horribly biased hack.

You've been posting crap like this for ages haven't you? Nothing has changed except you're getting more and more repetitive.
 
Last edited:

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Once gain FGD is a liar, as he maintains, "and, as of right now, the only democratically elected country in the middle east."

In terms of mid-east standing record Turkey is the longest standing Mid-east democracy.
And now Turkey will hold another election on June 11 2011, while the US firmly backs the royal house of Faud in Saudi Arabia.

But I am a somewhat child of wonder, as a profound Arab democracy ideals are toppling mid-east dictators left and right. Such wide regional events seldom happen so fast in only one year.

Smart nations take advantage of change, dumb ones don't.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Political liability would imply that by not being their ally we would pick up better allies.

So if we ditched Israel what would we gain??

A bunch of people who want us dead??
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
Once gain FGD is a liar, as he maintains, "and, as of right now, the only democratically elected country in the middle east."

In terms of mid-east standing record Turkey is the longest standing Mid-east democracy.
And now Turkey will hold another election on June 11 2011, while the US firmly backs the royal house of Faud in Saudi Arabia.

But I am a somewhat child of wonder, as a profound Arab democracy ideals are toppling mid-east dictators left and right. Such wide regional events seldom happen so fast in only one year.

Smart nations take advantage of change, dumb ones don't.


I, as the rest of the world, consider turkey as part of europe.

manly because of 2 things

1. they are a potential, and officially recognized candidate for the EU (aka European Union)
2. they are part of NATO (North Atlantic Treaty organization)

maybe you should join the rest of the world



but its nice to see you not trying to deny the rest of the post and would prefer to attack something majorly obvious and call it a lie, when 1. it isnt and 2. has been used previously in arguements to which you have never once tried to call out on.

404 diverting post off topic not found


Now, do you want to actually rebut my post or play the same old games you always do?
 
Last edited:

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
We might not agree with Israel on every issue but they are a representative democracy. I believe that it ought to be the policy of this country to encourage, support and if necessary, defend representative democracies, world wide. I also believe that should be the policy of ALL representative democracies around the world.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,422
10,723
136
Is Israeli a US ally or political liability?

Right, we should question the worth of pushing the Jews into the sea faster as Islamic terrorist groups demand of us. You choose our killers over the enemy of our killers.

Priorities Lemon Law, yours belong to the terrorists and it comes as no surprise for you to continue your propaganda campaign for them. Israel is not rushing into the sea fast enough, and so the screams of the 'injured' terrorists are supposed to be a concern for us, thus making Israel a liability.

You may desire to push harder, though make no mistake, I do not tolerate Islamic terrorist groups or their interests. They should be met with nuclear weapons, not peace deals.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
I, as the rest of the world, consider turkey as part of europe.

manly because of 2 things

1. they are in the EU (aka European Union) No they are not.
2. they are part of NATO (North Atlantic Treaty organization)

maybe you should join the rest of the world



but its nice to see you not trying to deny the rest of the post and would prefer to attack something majorly obvious and call it a lie, when 1. it isnt and 2. has been used previously in arguements to which you have never once tried to call out on.

404 diverting post off topic not found


Now, do you want to actually rebut my post or play the same old games you always do?

Just thought I would help you out there with your facts.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Political liability would imply that by not being their ally we would pick up better allies.

So if we ditched Israel what would we gain??

A bunch of people who want us dead??
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I gotta admit for once Non-Prof John asks a semi intelligent question.

But still the flaw in the PJ side of the question is in the assumption that we must either back Israel to the hilt or totally oppose Israel? That on the face of it is totally absurd contention worthy of the man from EIB.

Especially when democratic ideal, not caused by the US and Israel are sweeping the mid-east as young and idealistic Arabs reject the very dictators that have stagnated the mid-east for decades.

Its now an opportunity for the USA and Israeli to pick up Arab support, or we can be dumb, try to oppose all change and fail. Its a matter of using carrots to support the change we want, and if the USA and Israeli don't do it smarter nations will eat our lunch.

Those that think in only terms of black and white, can never see the world as it is or exploit moments for change when it comes.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
We might not agree with Israel on every issue but they are a representative democracy. I believe that it ought to be the policy of this country to encourage, support and if necessary, defend representative democracies, world wide. I also believe that should be the policy of ALL representative democracies around the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As now a777pilot asks a very interesting question, should we look at the world now and say because Egypt under Mubarak was a dictatorship we backed to the hilt, that Egypt thus can never in future can become a democracy?

Or that Israel that is now a democracy must be backed to the hilt as they refuse to give land they can never own to form what in future may become a democratic Palestinian State?

And by that very logic we should still be at war with the monarchy of Japan.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As now a777pilot asks a very interesting question, should we look at the world now and say because Egypt under Mubarak was a dictatorship we backed to the hilt, that Egypt thus can never in future can become a democracy?

Or that Israel that is now a democracy must be backed to the hilt as they refuse to give land they can never own to form what in future may become a democratic Palestinian State?

And by that very logic we should still be at war with the monarchy of Japan.

You sure did put a lot of words in my mouth that I never said. But then, this is the internet, so I guess it's just normal SOP.