Born2bwire
Diamond Member
- Oct 28, 2005
- 9,840
- 6
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Probably the great thing about the 5.56 mm is the low recoil compared to the 7.62x39. The Swedes used to use a 6.5 mm rifle cartridge and the times that I have fired it I was always impressed by the lower recoil and high accuracy of the rifles. Never used an intermediate cartridge in that caliber though but I would imagine it would be an excellent compromise between the low recoil of the 5.56 and the heavier bullet of the 7.62.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
The funny thing is that the 5.56mm round, like the 9mm pistol round, is very effective when hollow-point bullets are used. Since fragmenting rounds are prohibited under the law of armed conflict (as inflicting unnecessary cruelty), however, we are limited to using jacketed bullets, rendering both rounds (particularly the 9mm) relatively ineffective.
For a first hand account on firearms in Iraq, please read in total.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20051121-093501-9601r.htm
...Galvanized
http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20051121-093501-9601r.htm
...Galvanized
"Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cannot be reliably counted on to put the enemy down."
Hmmm like I've seen before
But yes a lot of rounds would be fine if they weren't jacketed, so when that happens you have to rely on mass and diameter
I figured the M-14 would be solid but the trade-off again of too few rounds
Hmmm like I've seen before
But yes a lot of rounds would be fine if they weren't jacketed, so when that happens you have to rely on mass and diameter
I figured the M-14 would be solid but the trade-off again of too few rounds
Problem is that long range performance is not the key factor anymore. For a European engagement, the stated distance for small arms combat was 300-400m. For the desert, it's obviously longer, but how much of the desert war (either DStorm or OIF) was decided with small arms as opposed to air power and armor? For long distance, all the services are turning to either designated marksman or snipers with specialized equipment.
For the current conflict, short range (200m?) effectiveness in an urban environment should be the determining factor, not long range.
I'm not arguing for or against any round, just saying that long range effectiveness is not as important currently as it might have been previously. It's not immaterial, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor.
While armor penetration isn't a huge deal currently, it is a factor with the availability of good body armor and will only increase in importance as body armor becomes more prevalent. Military training is now starting to emphasize head shots, or at least train for them, as a result. I heard that AFOSI agents don't even bother with body shots anymore, at least in theater.
Oh, I did see a few M-14s over there on the backs of guys walking around. I really want to have one of those rifles! Beautiful things.
I'd love to speak with like 25 serviceman who are/have been in combat in Iraq and
see what they have to say about the round and the rifle.
Of course i bet most of them would tell you it's fine, no matter what they think.
see what they have to say about the round and the rifle.
Of course i bet most of them would tell you it's fine, no matter what they think.
357 mag whats?
Lead, caste, jacketed?
at 70 yrs the M-14 would blow holes in that 1/2 in plate not just dent it, even as such you're comparing a pistol cartrige with a rifle?
Lead, caste, jacketed?
at 70 yrs the M-14 would blow holes in that 1/2 in plate not just dent it, even as such you're comparing a pistol cartrige with a rifle?
The M-16 is a piece of crap. It's jammy, underpowered and fragile. In vietnam, half a platoon would be down cleaning their rifles because they jammed up.
The AK, on the other hand, is the most reliable weapon ever made. You can kick it, throw it, fill it with mud, run it over with a truck, and it WILL still work. And it's accurate, and it has stopping power.
WW2 engineering FTW!
The AK, on the other hand, is the most reliable weapon ever made. You can kick it, throw it, fill it with mud, run it over with a truck, and it WILL still work. And it's accurate, and it has stopping power.
WW2 engineering FTW!
OrganizedChaos
Diamond Member
- Apr 21, 2002
- 4,524
- 0
- 0
i wasn under the impression that because the 5.56MM tumbles when it hits stuff it tore up your insides pretty good.
If you look closely those aren't dents. One hole looks like it actually went right through. Also my point wasn't to compare the rounds but to show how deadly the 5.56 round could be.
This kind of reminds me of the problem Delta Force faced in somalia. They were using then the Army's new green tip tungsten tip round which was made for piercing armor, except when shooting the sammies (which had no body armor) it would go right through them like a hot knife through butter, so unless it was a head shot or hit a vital organ, they were taking 5 or so hits and kept on shooting.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
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Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
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Its a factor in Afghan. And if you can get long range performance and not lose anything else, why not go for it?
Agreed, but see above. If you dont sacrafice any short range performance and gain long range, then really whats the problem?
Agreed.
SAPI plates will stop just about any man portable firearm. Generally, within reason, anything a GI takes in the field will either defeat armor or wont, not much else to it.
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
- 0
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Jammy? Only if you dont take care of it. The Vietnam issue was cleared up decades ago. At one time combustion engines burned alot of oil and werent very reliable but that doesnt come up in arguments anymore about engines does it?
It was a design flaw, its been corrected.
Underpowered? Compared to what?
It exhibits BETTER terminal ballistics then .308 from 0 to roughly 200 meters (Depending on ammo aand barrel combinatrion), in certain cases it exhibits BETTER penetration then .308 at longer ranges, its lighter, less recoil, faster follow up shots......Underpowered??
Fragile? I'm sorry, I havent heard of any accounts of the ammo breaking if its dropped on the ground.
Yes, the AK is a good weapon but its also made for conscripts. The type of people who dont know much about firearms. Our military is highly trained, the soldiers are trained in how to maintain their weapon. The AR is a superior platform in virtually every way over the AK except for reliability. And thats only a factor if you dont maintain your weapon.
Which goes back to the difference between highly trained soldiers and conscripts.
In fact, the Iraqi army even requested we supply them with M16's as they wanted to transition from AK-47's to M16's.........
Tumblin bullets are a myth to make the 5.56 seem worse than it is
"The reality is that any sharply pointed FMJ bullet may tumble if it hits something hard enough to destabilize or deform it, a large bone, for example. This tumbling effect has been noted by US troops ever since the adoption of the .30-06 cartridge and its 150 grain spitzer bullet in 1906. It is not unique to the 5.56mm bullet. But often a FMJ bullet will simply drill a bullet diameter hole straight through the target, particularly in soft tissue. The terminal performance of any FMJ spitzer bullet is unpredictable and any result other than a caliber diameter hole cannot be relied on."
http://www.chuckhawks.com/definitive_service_caliber.htm
"The reality is that any sharply pointed FMJ bullet may tumble if it hits something hard enough to destabilize or deform it, a large bone, for example. This tumbling effect has been noted by US troops ever since the adoption of the .30-06 cartridge and its 150 grain spitzer bullet in 1906. It is not unique to the 5.56mm bullet. But often a FMJ bullet will simply drill a bullet diameter hole straight through the target, particularly in soft tissue. The terminal performance of any FMJ spitzer bullet is unpredictable and any result other than a caliber diameter hole cannot be relied on."
http://www.chuckhawks.com/definitive_service_caliber.htm
Specop 007
Diamond Member
- Jan 31, 2005
- 9,454
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Except the 5.56 fragments after tumbling, which is why its such a good performer.
The downside is you NEED velocity to get fragmentation which means your "effective" range (For fragmentation) is limited to roughly 100-200 yards depending.
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