Is ESO going to self destruct before it even launches?

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Markbnj

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It's interesting how the most critical comments seem to come from people who played just a few minutes or an hour or two. I would guess you guys are just burned out on the whole genre. I think that assumption is strengthened by comments like "it's too much like everything else we've seen." People who fall into this category are obviously, and for whatever reason, looking for something different. But it ought to be just as obvious that not everyone, or perhaps even a majority, of players are likely to feel this way. You could say the same thing about every shooter, every side scroller, every hack-n-slash, every golf sim. There's not some unwritten law that states that x number of hack-n-slash online RPGs are allowed, and then we all have to move on. Some people just like this genre, and I suspect a lot of those who do will like this game.

I'm not at all sure, though, that a mass market can be found that is large enough to justify the money that is now being spent to create these titles. That's the real issue: they have to succeed in a massive way or they fail. For me, personally, they could drop a lot of the most expensive stuff (starting with every voiced character in the game), and I wouldn't miss it.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
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Thats fair I suppose. Morrowind takes a little while to get into but its a darn fine game.
I am often critical of people who thumb there nose at it too early.
 

asteldian

Member
Nov 25, 2013
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Well, I managed to get my first play on the game this Beta, and log in issues aside on Saturday, I was able to play a decent amount. So thought I would share my impressions, for what they are worth. Before I do, I should probably clarify a bit of my background with regards to ES games. I warn you now this post is long winded and if you have no interest in what a random geezer on the internet is blabbering on about, I advise you to skip my post now.

Overall, I am a casual ES player, I am not a huge fan of their games, I like their style, but ultimately, whilst being able to boast freedom and huge games, I found I get bored of them fairly quickly, one of my favourite things about gaming, especially RP games is that I like sharing the experience with friends. In ES games, fun though they are for a while, I find them to be very large, lonely worlds and I cannot imagine ever spending hundreds of hours in them. I didn't even bother with Skyrim after becoming very bored of Oblivion I figured it wasn't worth paying for anymore ES games.

MMO wise I am a hardcore casual player – I spend a lot of hours playing, but am not all that interested in racing to end game and farming raids there endlessly for more gear in preparation of the next content.

So, onto the Beta. It definitely felt like ES games, they have styled the game well in hat aspect – the way combat is, the way your map doesn’t just show you all quests, the way you uncover quests if you explore, and even the levelling process all had the feeling of ES. Undeniably the amount of quests found and he way the quests are is diluted compared to normal ES games, but it definitely feels similar. Same goes for builds, while there are classes, it really seems you can build a role regardless of class, again, it is not quite the freedom of the single player games, but far closer than I ever expected, you can pretty much build any role out of all the classes to the point I am not even sure which class I want for building a tank. I can’t help but feel you really must be the hardest of hardcore ES players to believe the game does not play like the single player ones.

MMO wise it has that familiar feeling of skills and special attacks and roles you can fill, the few skill slots available is very different, I think possibly even to few for my tastes as an MMOer (though weapon switch doubling your slots will help). While feeling familiar, it also is very different, and not just because of the slots – levelling is MUCH slower, for modern day MMOers this will be off putting, but for me it was refreshing (getting to the end game is the part I dread in MMOs as this is when I rapidly lose interest), simply grinding mobs also is not a sensible option as you don’t get much from it (this may be an issue later when sometimes all you want to do is have a good dungeon grind). The skill ups also introduce a whole new aspect, especially when you add in the morphing of abilities – there are some trees I want to put a skill in just to open up so I can level it as a may be interested in some of the later abilities, but at lower lvl I cannot afford to spend the points yet. Again, you really must be a hardcore ES fan to feel this is some kind of WoW clone, or someone so burned out on MMOs that it feels the same.

My biggest concern with the game currently is just how well it will work as a multiplayer game, teaming up with the wife was no issue but was also not needed in anyway, the game feels like it could feel a bit to solo orientated for its own good, but to be fair, I consider this an issue with all MMOs too due to their desire to make games so easy and accessible that everyone can race to the end game easily and alone, obviously I only experience the early parts of the game and in reality you expect nothing less than to do it alone.

All in all I felt it was an interesting blend of MMO and ES, as someone who is without an MMO or any other game at the moment it is one I will be getting for the wife and I as it is a refreshing take on things – Whilst overall it is not innovative in regards to either genre (MMO or ES) by combining them together they have brought a freshness to the MMO scene and it should bring me some entertainment for a decent while.

Having said all that, I do expect the game to be forced into F2P within a year for the following reasons:

1) Cost to produce. At $200M the game was just too expensive, it is the same error SWTOR made. When you blow that much money on making the game it is a huge ask to try and get that back and you need a lot of subscribers to do it. Unlike a single player game which has a MUCH wider audience, you really can’t indulge in such costs for a game. In reality, with a Dev team of 20, at about $70k a year each, an audience of only 100k (tiny in the eyes of MMOs these days) you easily earn enough to maintain servers, the staff and can work on updates whilst still turning some profit. Whack on a $200M debt and it is a whole new ball game and you need to keep huge numbers to stay afloat, add that you want to make considerably more profit than what 100k subscribers would give you and you are asking for too much. FFXIV was remade and after a few months was at 600k subs, this is viewed as a huge success for the company and improved their profit forecast. Compare that to SWTOR who as soon as they dropped from 1M were already hitting panic buttons and eyeing up the F2P option, you can see why the hefty price tag is too heavy to cope with

2) What kind of audience is the game going to appeal too? Hardcore MMOers aren’t going to want it – few buttons to mash, lack of ‘rotations’ to master, too slow to level, it doesn’t fit the modern gamers style. Clearly hardcore ES fans are also not supportive of the game either as it is not ES enough for them, but at the same time people who dislike ES games won’t like this because it is TOO ES for them. I am pretty sure I am a minority audience for MMOs – I like old school games, the WoW and beyond generation of MMOs tick none of the boxes for me and sol I can’t last more than a couple months on them. I am also the minority ES gamer too – not being a huge fan of the big worlds the single player offers yet liking the style of the game enough to want to play an MMO version.

3) Game cost and decisions made with it. £50 for the normal version is a crazy high price for an MMO, at least £20 more than it should be and is typical for an MMO. Add in the controversial Imperial race lock behind the Collectors Edition and you have people put off on principle. The reality is, the Imperial is going to be nothing more than Cosmetic (whatever ‘role’ you want to make in the game already has a race ideal for it, so there is nothing the Imperial will have that will leave someone ‘short changed’ by not being able to make them) but that isn’t really the point, people feel shafted by this decision.

The excessive cost is clearly related to the games production cost, they want to scrape as much money as they can from sales to make their money back, as in reality that is the only hope they have of avoiding going F2P – if the game sells about 2M PC copies (may be possible, initial sales are usually very good for an MMO) that gives them about $100M, likely more thanks to Collectors sales. Then if they were to sell 1M for Playstation/Xbox, that would be around $150M they would be on track to be able to survive the rapid attrition rate of post release (2 or 3 months post launch) and be able to support the game on much more reasonable subscription numbers. But it is a fair few ifs and buts.

For me, I will buy it and play and enjoy it for what it is – an interesting love child of ES and MMOs, likely leaving once it goes F2P – Like I said, I am a minority in the modern era and F2P quickly puts me off a game
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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I played this weekend. Enjoyed most of what I played.

My only annoyances really were the long loading screens, the long queue times, a lack of intuitive UI/menu system, and the broken quests. The first two were expected, and the last one I expected 1 or maybe 2 low level quests to be broken. I did not expect to run into over 6 of them from playing.

Then again, there wasn't that many overall bugs I ran into. A few boxes I couldn't open. A couple items that couldn't be used. That sort of thing.

The lack of intuitive UI wasn't THAT bad, but that compass system versus a minimap was annoying. Which I could live with if I had too. The mystery meat icon navigation style menu system was craptastic though. Especially without a tutorial on how to navigate. Tried to screw around with crafting system. Took me forever to figure out how to even make iron ingots from iron ore. Then again, I expect perhaps some explanation will be more forth coming when the game goes live.

All in all, not a bad weekend I guess or game play experience. I've seen MUCH MUCH MUCH worse. From talking with friends that played previous weekends, they've all said the game has progressed by leaps and bounds every weekend thus far. Like the previous weekend most of the in game NPCs were still using Microsoft Sam and Mary voices instead of actual voice overs. So to me this looks very hopeful overall for the game.
 

Markbnj

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Man, there's a lot I'd like to talk about :). Suffice it to say I really enjoyed the game this weekend. It's coming along very well. I'm hopeful that beta characters will be carried forward from this point (as they were this weekend) so that I can continue into higher level content in later sessions. This session is on until 11:59PM tonight, so I am hoping to get a couple more hours in after dinner.
 

Lil Frier

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Oct 3, 2013
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I liked my brief playing of the game as well. I can understand the complaints, as the MMO is REALLY lacking (seriously, what are you supposed to do as a group?). The combat is a bit like watered-down Skyrim, with attack ranges being something I'm a little annoyed by. In Skyrim, I was primarily an archer, and I'd like to stay at extreme range and pick off guys while sneaking, but this game doesn't allow for that. I don't necessarily hold it against them, because it's fairly logical to NOT have it, it's just something that I miss from Skyrim to TESO.

The main thing I disliked was just the general lack of need to be in a group. I suppose that's the same for leveling in WoW, where you can basically solo everything to max level. However, as I have not researched this game much at all, I don't know how the endgame content compares to WoW. Will there be guilds and raids and the like? I don't see any hint that we'd get dungeons, so I don't know where raids would come in, either. Really, what is there to do once you hit max level?

Also, I both like and dislike the leveling. I like the part where it's not just a leveling tree like WoW or Borderlands--you get your spec skills, but also skills with the different armors and weapons, it's kind-of neat. However, those skills pages are also sorted poorly, not sure why.

It's a game I'd love to get, but I can't justify $15/month on WoW, a game I have years invested in. There's NO WAY I'm going to invest that money in TESO, a game I have no history with. I agree that they're just going to have the sub for a bit, like TOR did. It'll get the diehards to pony up cash to pay back some of the high development costs, then it'll go free-to-play once they realize that WoW is really the only exception to the sub-based rule anymore.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
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Man, there's a lot I'd like to talk about :). Suffice it to say I really enjoyed the game this weekend. It's coming along very well. I'm hopeful that beta characters will be carried forward from this point (as they were this weekend) so that I can continue into higher level content in later sessions. This session is on until 11:59PM tonight, so I am hoping to get a couple more hours in after dinner.

My biggest gripe was that my main quest line got bugged along with one of the major side quests. I also found out that if you abandon a quest right now, you can't get it back. Which I did with my main quest line. So if they carry forward I will probably have to restart a new character anyhow.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I liked my brief playing of the game as well. I can understand the complaints, as the MMO is REALLY lacking (seriously, what are you supposed to do as a group?). The combat is a bit like watered-down Skyrim, with attack ranges being something I'm a little annoyed by. In Skyrim, I was primarily an archer, and I'd like to stay at extreme range and pick off guys while sneaking, but this game doesn't allow for that. I don't necessarily hold it against them, because it's fairly logical to NOT have it, it's just something that I miss from Skyrim to TESO.

The main thing I disliked was just the general lack of need to be in a group. I suppose that's the same for leveling in WoW, where you can basically solo everything to max level. However, as I have not researched this game much at all, I don't know how the endgame content compares to WoW. Will there be guilds and raids and the like? I don't see any hint that we'd get dungeons, so I don't know where raids would come in, either. Really, what is there to do once you hit max level?

Also, I both like and dislike the leveling. I like the part where it's not just a leveling tree like WoW or Borderlands--you get your spec skills, but also skills with the different armors and weapons, it's kind-of neat. However, those skills pages are also sorted poorly, not sure why.

It's a game I'd love to get, but I can't justify $15/month on WoW, a game I have years invested in. There's NO WAY I'm going to invest that money in TESO, a game I have no history with. I agree that they're just going to have the sub for a bit, like TOR did. It'll get the diehards to pony up cash to pay back some of the high development costs, then it'll go free-to-play once they realize that WoW is really the only exception to the sub-based rule anymore.

Dude, you didn't go very far into the game then for the group content. There are massive elite areas and dungeons once you get off newbie island. The map icons with the big skull and cross bones are all elite areas. You go there solo and you'll be dead.

Then even some of the "solo" bosses are ridiculous. Part of the problem is that none of the "group" quests show up as different in your quest log compared to solo quests. So you go along a line merrily as can be thinking it's a solo quest. And then you get hit with a group boss mob at the end. You are like WTF??? At least me and my friends on skype. Worst is the few quests you can not group to complete them since they are setup for solo instances only. Which means dealing with a massive boss mob you can't beat solo at the same level as the boss. Or even 2 levels over the boss. Those were annoying.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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I'm not at all sure, though, that a mass market can be found that is large enough to justify the money that is now being spent to create these titles. That's the real issue: they have to succeed in a massive way or they fail. For me, personally, they could drop a lot of the most expensive stuff (starting with every voiced character in the game), and I wouldn't miss it.
That's the thing that gets me. If they wanted to blow 30-50M, then maybe add more with an expansion, later, with no up front added cost (FI, the initial purchase price including 3 months): cool. Not my cup of tea, but there's definitely room for some good truly Western MMOs, especially with WoW slowly waning. The genre is kind of played out, but more in the sense that it needs some creative sparks, than that everything that can be done has been done.

But, 200M, and it's basically them making an MMO like other MMOs, just happening to be in some bits of Tamriel, with an ES-like UI? They're not going to get a wide ES player base, I doubt--at least not on the PC, where the CKs are half the reason for anticipating the games--and I doubt there's a wide general MMO base, at least not for making back up 200M, given that there's so much else people already have time investments into. It just seems like such a huge risk, when I'd bet they could have gotten 90% of the meaningful gameplay and world work done for a much smaller sum.
 

Lil Frier

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Oct 3, 2013
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Nah, I didn't get far. I didn't get to play on Friday, because of internship stuff (stayed until 7, in stead of the planned 5:30). Saturday, I was at the internship again until 2 PM, and I ended up not playing a whole lot, just because I was tired and had a cold. I got to the island and pretty-much was done, at that point. Sunday, I was going to play some, but I got annoyed and quit when it bugged on me. I was doing the quest where you find the stranded sailors, and when I got to the dude tied to the post, it broke the game. I hit the option to leave the body, and it didn't do anything. I logged off and went to do Xbox 360 Achievements on the Black Ops II campaign instead.

Problem is, I just didn't have anyone to play with. The friend I played WoW with hated Skyrim, and I imagine he would dislike this as well (he didn't sign up for the beta). My brother-in-law, who likes Skyrim, is in med school, and doesn't play PC games. Playing MMOs alone gets boring quickly, at times.
 

Markbnj

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But, 200M, and it's basically them making an MMO like other MMOs, just happening to be in some bits of Tamriel, with an ES-like UI? They're not going to get a wide ES player base, I doubt--at least not on the PC, where the CKs are half the reason for anticipating the games--and I doubt there's a wide general MMO base, at least not for making back up 200M, given that there's so much else people already have time investments into.

In a business sense, yes, they are shooting for the same model. From a design standpoint they are doing a lot of things differently, and I think most of them work well. But ultimately I agree that it will be hard to recoup the investment unless the game can attract a good couple of million subs and last five or ten years. That's so damn hard to accomplish now that the market's attention is fragmented across so many different entertainment options. The state of the world when WoW came out was much different, but studios seem to think it hasn't changed at all.
 

Markbnj

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Playing MMOs alone gets boring quickly, at times.

This is an interesting comment. It's not necessarily true for me, since I love to play loner characters like Rangers and explore far and wide, but I can see where it would be an issue for a lot of people. But what if an MMO was a little more like the real world? There are lots of people in the world, but you don't feel like you can't experience the world if you aren't hanging out with five or six of them all the time. There are lots of fun things you do alone, and then there are things you do with others. Most importantly, the fact that you aren't hanging out with other people all the time doesn't mean the world isn't a lot richer with them in it, than it would be if they were all robots.

So if an MMO offered a lot of content that was more like single-player RPG content, and maybe even did it better than many single-player games do, experiencing that content would be as fun as it is in a single player game, with the added bonus that the world is full of real people. Some of them are doing the same things as you, some are doing other stuff, and sometimes you get together to do the things that you can't or don't want to do alone.

Not saying ESO is at all like that, of course :).
 

Cerb

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Ultima Online is probably the closest anything has ever come to that. Making something like that anew would take a very special hand. Kind of like CDP did with the two Witcher games so far, getting so many little things about the atmosphere and plots right--in that they had character to them, that kept you coming back--even when they made glaring mistakes (like the uneven difficulty scaling through the 1st game), it wouldn't be the kind of thing that throwing money at will be able to make happen, without the right team backed by the right investors.
 

Lil Frier

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Oct 3, 2013
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This is an interesting comment. It's not necessarily true for me, since I love to play loner characters like Rangers and explore far and wide, but I can see where it would be an issue for a lot of people. But what if an MMO was a little more like the real world? There are lots of people in the world, but you don't feel like you can't experience the world if you aren't hanging out with five or six of them all the time. There are lots of fun things you do alone, and then there are things you do with others. Most importantly, the fact that you aren't hanging out with other people all the time doesn't mean the world isn't a lot richer with them in it, than it would be if they were all robots.

So if an MMO offered a lot of content that was more like single-player RPG content, and maybe even did it better than many single-player games do, experiencing that content would be as fun as it is in a single player game, with the added bonus that the world is full of real people. Some of them are doing the same things as you, some are doing other stuff, and sometimes you get together to do the things that you can't or don't want to do alone.

Not saying ESO is at all like that, of course :).

Like I said, it's just "at times." WoW, I could run around and do the Pandaria dailies without anyone just fine. The occasional help for or from others was welcomed, but not necessary. The bore with TESO comes from how the starter zone is just a chore. It's a decent bit of running to or from anything. There aren't many different types of enemies, and they're not difficult to defeat.

In WoW, if I wanted to make killing mobs a bit more-entertaining, I could grab a bunch, then kite then and try to kill the group (I played a Hunter on there). With TESO, it's basically just one or two of the same two or three types of enemies on the starter island, and it's very redundant. I'm guessing that gets a lot better as I get off of the island, but leveling's ALWAYS been a chore for me with WoW so I expect this won't be a whole lot better.
 

Larnz

Senior member
Dec 15, 2010
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Wildly average imo.

I played probably 15-20 hours over the stress test. I don't think I will be picking it up, it is just lacking that 'something' for me. I find it to be excessively grindy really with little reward progression. I don't think it's questing is half as good as wow or some other games due to the rewards/char progression. I played as a destruction templar to level 11 (leveling is super slow) I think and of all that time probably only 4 or so reward items were even for my class. Also the quests don't tell you what reward you will get for completing them which is annoying to me. I prefer item reward quests to have options of loot at completion. Item progression is a huge thing to get right, people like upgrades often to keep them interested. Crafting seems fairly good but. The skill/class system really seemed quite limited to me, I doubt there will be much diversity in builds between main archtypes.

It was all pretty easy and never felt like it required even a modicum of skill in the PVE I did, was just a grind. The exploration and the TES scenery/theme was all that really kept me going but I think I got enough of that from the weekend.

The dungeon I did was ok, the bosses had mechanics to them but nothing new or ground breaking. They seemed to replace kill XX monster quests with a metric fuck tonne of talk to this guy then this guy then that guy and then come back to me and talk which is super boring. Alot of the quests involve going into a cave or lair or portal and basically killing the dude at the end of them.

Basically If it wasn't an Elder Scrolls game, if it was just some random mmo with the same features it wouldn't get a look in, really its theme is all it has going for it but that can't carry it imo.

If I only had one word to sum it all up it would be: Dull

It just seemed well dull, it wasn't super exciting and didn't have any real drive to get to that next level to unlock XX awesomeness etc.
 

CountZero

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2001
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Wife and I played this weekend and we both came to same the conclusion. It isn't bad but it also isn't good. If it was the GW2 or TSW model we'd totally be buying it but it doesn't seem quite good enough for two subscriptions. We got off noob island #1 but I think we are just on noob island #2 at this point maybe it gets better on the main land.

One of the biggest gripes is it seems that grouping while leveling is not a well thought out experience. Just getting together was consistently buggy and the fact that interacting with npcs was phased meant you would see other party members running ahead with their version of events while yours were going on at a slightly different time. People in the same group should experience the same single version of what is happening but you don't. It is like you are playing a single player game coincidentally with another person and not like you are adventuring together. It sounds subtle but the effect on immersion is pretty big.

We haven't run into those solo dungeons someone mentioned but that's some of the worse design I've heard of in a MMO. TSW did it a lot and it was one of the main reasons we just stopped playing. I don't understand the design philosophy that goes into designing MMO content that intentionally splits a group.

Overall it feels like they intend you to play it solo most of the time and occasionally group up rather than adventure in a group at all times. It does some stuff well and some stuff poorly but it doesn't seem to excel at anything.
 

Markbnj

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I'm guessing that gets a lot better as I get off of the island, but leveling's ALWAYS been a chore for me with WoW so I expect this won't be a whole lot better.

Yeah there's a basic difference in attitude there that we just have to agree cannot be reconciled :). I don't think of levelling as a chore, and I don't even think of "playing" as "levelling." Well, I did more toward the middle to end of my time in DAoC, when I had seen everything and just wanted to get a new toon to 50 and grab some MLs. Typically what I play a game like this for is to explore, loot, craft a little, and hopefully get into some factional PVP battles when I feel like it. I like quests mostly as a way to get into the game and get a mature character going. Later I like to transition to more exploring/crafting/pvp. Don't get me wrong, level is important, and especially in PVP, but I don't feel a rush to get there. One of the reasons I like faction-based PVP over hardcore rulesets like Darkfall is that I can get into large factional battles even with a mid-level mid-geared toon and have some fun.
 

Lil Frier

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I imagine a big reason leveling felt so bad for me was that I always did it alone. On top of that, I joined WoW in 2008, right before Wrath launched. That means that I couldn't play the game with my friend who got me into the game until about a month later. Part of the problem there is basically that I had to spend $15 just to get to where I could play the game with someone else. Doing dead content (vanilla/TBC) by myself for that first month was just a huge bore. Cataclysm was similar, as I got it a couple of months after my friend, so I didn't get to do anything with anyone at the start then, either.

Pandaria was a bit better, mostly because the continent was nicer, in my opinion. I had actually done some legitimate, guild-based raiding in Cataclysm, so I had done more to get comfortable with my character. I got to do some of the stuff with my friend, partially because the zone wasn't massive like Cata, where you had two continents with new zones and most people in Storwind when I joined.

I didn't necessarily hate the leveling in TESO while I played. I like it as a means of getting a grasp on how the game is played. I didn't feel like it was TOO grindy, but I also only hit about 6 or 7 on my character. However, playing the beta makes me agree with the assessment that they should have worked on a co-op TES game, rather than an MMO. I just am not sold that I'll enjoy this style of play in the MMO format. When I was playing Skyrim, I was thinking "I wish I could do this stuff with my brother-in-law," not "I wish there were raids."
 

asteldian

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Nov 25, 2013
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I think a problem with MMOs these days is the overfocus of quests. Nowadays you log in and check your 'To Do List' for the day and hop on autopilot and get on with it, pretty much ignoring most people while you do so.
I kind of miss just logging on and camping an area or ploughing through some open dungeon to see what loot drops and enjoy the thrill of battle with friends.

TESO seems to follow te quest heavy standard of modern MMOs which isn't surprising, but I like playstyle as a little different from typical MMOs, though I would like more skill slots.

My only gripe with the game is its starting price, I like sub games so no issue there, but an MMO, espeically with a sub shouldn't be more than £30