Is Edward Jones for suckers?

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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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Raswan, You should maybe look into something like Wealthfront.com to do some investing. Their advisory fee is really minimal (.25%) and they will handhold you to creating a portfolio to your needs/assets.

They do tax loss harvesting, etc that is really, really nice! And use ETFs that are cheap on the Expense Ratio, like Vanguard.

https://research.wealthfront.com/whitepapers/tax-loss-harvesting/

Every year, compounded over decades, that 0.25% adds up.

Spending a few hours once, learning about the 1-5 mutual funds or ETFs you want to invest in, lets you keep that 0.25% every year, and you get the compounded growth. Try https://www.bogleheads.org/

If someone is still lost after trying to learn on their own, it might help to talk to a financial adviser who is willing to charge a one-time flat fee to help you pick the right funds at vanguard.com. For you to buy directly yourself, not through the adviser's company. Anyone acting as a middleman may be getting kickbacks of one kind or another even if they do just charge you a one-time fee.
 
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BarkingGhostar

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2009
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I'm 34, got out of grad school a couple years ago, and work as a part-time college professor. My wife is the primary breadwinner and has always had a retirement plan, which we've pumped money into for years. Rest of our income has just gone into the bank. However, I'm making enough now that it's time to start a separate retirement account for me.

I'm not a finance guy, and while I know in principal how most retirement accounts work I've little sense of the best route to take here to get started. Start my own vanguard account and go that way? Hire Edward Jones for awhile at least until I'm more comfortable with everything? See if I can go all-in on the small TIAA-cref account my university offers (and then deal with it if I end up not working there anymore)?

I have no problem sitting down with someone and saying "Look here, I'm a smart guy but I've little sense of all my available options and I'd rather not waste potential gains on the first five years of retirement savings by picking a sub-par route."

I just don't know who that person is.

Save me ATOT. Take me to school.
You do realize that TIAA-cref offers free assistance in retirement matters and can greatly help you in getting things started/done? I was astonished when the wife and I went to one of their offices a couple of years ago (in Atlanta). The assistance was free because of the wife's TIAA-CREF for her university. I would say start by calling them and maybe going to one of their offices via appointment.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
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You do realize that TIAA-cref offers free assistance in retirement matters and can greatly help you in getting things started/done? I was astonished when the wife and I went to one of their offices a couple of years ago (in Atlanta). The assistance was free because of the wife's TIAA-CREF for her university. I would say start by calling them and maybe going to one of their offices via appointment.

Yep, thanks. We do have a meeting set up for about a month from now, but I wanted to get a head start before going in so I at least understand the basic options and terms. Also find it useful to know how these folks make money off of the advice they give, so that I can judge whether that advice sounds good because they're a good salesperson, or because it's actually the right advice given all factors. As has become clear through the advice from Chess and Simmons and Cepak and Zinfamous--given our current net worth and investment level, if anyone suggests anything except one of the low-fee index funds and just maximizing contributions, they're selling me something that's in their interest rather than mine. Once we get a chunk of change in there down the road I'll shift the plan appropriately.
 

kranky

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
21,019
156
106
Bogleheads.org is the best site for learning how to handle your investments. The first thing to realize is that investing need not be complicated, but financial advisors need you to think it is so they can justify their fees. The bogleheads wiki is phenomenal.

The second thing is that by the time you know enough to understand if your advisor is a good one, you know enough to not need one.

The third thing is that fees really, really matter over time. Try this calculator https://www.dinkytown.net/java/CompareFees.html and see the enormous impact fees have over time.

EJ fees are very high and not worth paying. I've seen what happened to relatives who used EJ. They loved their advisor. But when I charted their EJ account performance against what Bogleheads calls the "3-fund portfolio", the EJ account lost. I do not believe EJ advisors decide what to do for each client. I think they pigeonhole each customer into one of a few categories based on investment goals, and the EJ mothership tells them what the investments ought to be. The advisor has no secret sauce. If you are categorized into the "Capital Appreciation with Moderate Risk" bucket, your investments are the same as every other EJ customer in that bucket.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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You also have to be careful about turning over your money to anyone other than a self-service company like Vanguard, Schwab or Fidelity.

Besides the up-front annual fee, they can charge trading fees, and even if they have index funds like the S&P 500 the annual expense ratio might be higher than at Vanguard or Schwab. Sometimes the fund is not a company fund (so it looks independent) but it pays a cut when the manager buys shares for you.

So you end up losing more of your growth over time compared to buying and holding funds at Vanguard for decades, and possibly much more if they engage in excessive paid trading.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,872
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Yep, thanks. We do have a meeting set up for about a month from now, but I wanted to get a head start before going in so I at least understand the basic options and terms. Also find it useful to know how these folks make money off of the advice they give, so that I can judge whether that advice sounds good because they're a good salesperson, or because it's actually the right advice given all factors. As has become clear through the advice from Chess and Simmons and Cepak and Zinfamous--given our current net worth and investment level, if anyone suggests anything except one of the low-fee index funds and just maximizing contributions, they're selling me something that's in their interest rather than mine. Once we get a chunk of change in there down the road I'll shift the plan appropriately.

I can honestly say that I don't know all that much about this field, but I'm confident that I now know enough to keep myself happy with what I am doing. Only a few years ago I knew absolutely zilch, and had the majority of my meager savings slumming away in an old ING account (savings and CDs), which was great when I started it at 7-12% interest for some of those, but of course that was 10+ years previous.

Exterous is one of the real experts around here. And Dave Simmons pops up frequently with similar advice but different funds that he likes.

This is where I started, which I find to be great reads even though you don't need to adhere to these life lessons 100%

http://jlcollinsnh.com/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
https://www.gocurrycracker.com/

All of those represent various versions of my attitude towards life and money, so I find their advice to be extremely useful, and often entertaining. Even a little empowering.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,580
3,777
126
You do realize that TIAA-cref offers free assistance in retirement matters and can greatly help you in getting things started/done? I was astonished when the wife and I went to one of their offices a couple of years ago (in Atlanta). The assistance was free because of the wife's TIAA-CREF for her university. I would say start by calling them and maybe going to one of their offices via appointment.

Again - I would be careful about TIAA and their assistance. While I have no doubt they have people who would give good advice its also clear many at TIAA are pushing people to higher fee 'solutions'

TIAA provides additional compensation in the form of variable annual bonuses to individual advisors. These bonuses are determined not only as a percentage of the amount of assets under management advisors accumulate, but also by the amount of wealth advisors are able to transfer from existing funds into their TIAA managed brokerage accounts. This means, that, while advisors receive a base salary (“no client commissions or product fees”), the bonus structure heavily influences advisors to move client assets to new managed accounts with added management fees, and to sell complex solutions (i.e., TIAA annuities or TIAA insurance) to their clients.

http://www.bluestemfa.com/blog/tiaa-changes-more-thank-just-its-name

You can see the jump in $$$ being funneled into their funds in 2011 when they made their compensation changes:

Xhudz8Y.jpg


This is despite their unusually bad (even for mutual fund) performance:

s70zX2K.jpg


So this 'free' assistance may very well cost you a lot of money due to bad advice that lines the pockets of a TIAA employee at your expense.

I found one of the boglehead threads on it and many people were reporting they were also given bad advice or pressured into moving money into TIAA funds:
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=230313

Exterous is one of the real experts around here. And Dave Simmons pops up frequently with similar advice but different funds that he likes.

:oops: :D

Yep, thanks. We do have a meeting set up for about a month from now, but I wanted to get a head start before going in so I at least understand the basic options and terms. Also find it useful to know how these folks make money off of the advice they give, so that I can judge whether that advice sounds good because they're a good salesperson, or because it's actually the right advice given all factors. As has become clear through the advice from Chess and Simmons and Cepak and Zinfamous--given our current net worth and investment level, if anyone suggests anything except one of the low-fee index funds and just maximizing contributions, they're selling me something that's in their interest rather than mine. Once we get a chunk of change in there down the road I'll shift the plan appropriately.

Sounds like you have a great starting plan. Honestly you can continue to do index funds even with a larger chunk of money - there are plenty of people over at Bogleheads with 8 figure retirement accounts all in index funds. Its also a great place to get feedback or sanity checks on decisions you're thinking about making after your meeting in a month
 
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Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
I can honestly say that I don't know all that much about this field, but I'm confident that I now know enough to keep myself happy with what I am doing. Only a few years ago I knew absolutely zilch, and had the majority of my meager savings slumming away in an old ING account (savings and CDs), which was great when I started it at 7-12% interest for some of those, but of course that was 10+ years previous.

Exterous is one of the real experts around here. And Dave Simmons pops up frequently with similar advice but different funds that he likes.

This is where I started, which I find to be great reads even though you don't need to adhere to these life lessons 100%

http://jlcollinsnh.com/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
https://www.gocurrycracker.com/

All of those represent various versions of my attitude towards life and money, so I find their advice to be extremely useful, and often entertaining. Even a little empowering.

Thanks for those resources--they are much, much appreciated. It is a genuine treat to dive into something I little understood before with thoughtful, helpful guidance along the way.

So turns out I am required by the state as a faculty member to be enrolled in an IRAP with fixed contributions of 4.5% by me and 6% by employer. Can't contribute additional funds. But I can start a TSA-403b plan (mentioned by someone previously) to supplement it, and apparently as long as there's a "reasonable expectation that I return" to teaching at some point in the future there, I don't have to cash out/roll over the account.

Looks like among the slew of TSA options available my best options are:
Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund Institutional Plus Class Equities 18.13% 14.62% -- 11.93% 12/31/2017 0.05% / 0.05%
Vanguard Institutional Target Retirement 2045 Institutional Multi-Asset 21.47% -- -- 9.18% 12/31/2017 0.09% / 0.09%
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Institutional Multi-Asset 13.86% 10.10% 7.16% 6.44% 12/31/2017 0.06% / 0.06%

There are a shitton of T. Rowe and CREF options in there in equities and multi-asset that approach the same performance, but I really don't see how they're different except having a higher fee? I don't know, maybe I'm not allowed to share this site, but it seems pretty generic. You see anything obvious in there that I'm missing as a viable option? Don't feel obligated to look in any way. You've been super helpful already, and at this point I can talk to TIAA and see what exactly the difference is.


 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
Again - I would be careful about TIAA and their assistance. While I have no doubt they have people who would give good advice its also clear many at TIAA are pushing people to higher fee 'solutions'



http://www.bluestemfa.com/blog/tiaa-changes-more-thank-just-its-name

You can see the jump in $$$ being funneled into their funds in 2011 when they made their compensation changes:

Xhudz8Y.jpg


This is despite their unusually bad (even for mutual fund) performance:

s70zX2K.jpg


So this 'free' assistance may very well cost you a lot of money due to bad advice that lines the pockets of a TIAA employee at your expense.

I found one of the boglehead threads on it and many people were reporting they were also given bad advice or pressured into moving money into TIAA funds:
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=230313



:oops: :D



Sounds like you have a great starting plan. Honestly you can continue to do index funds even with a larger chunk of money - there are plenty of people over at Bogleheads with 8 figure retirement accounts all in index funds. Its also a great place to get feedback or sanity checks on decisions you're thinking about making after your meeting in a month

Thanks for this and the other help Exterous. It's a huge load off. Will keep in mind that there's no need to jump ship in ten or fifteen years as well. So that I am clear--my only option with this employer is through a TIAA 403b. Am I correct in assuming that the link I posted a second ago lists as options a whole bunch of investment plans that would be available to anyone, including outside of TIAA? In other words, going into my meeting with them, your words of caution could be answered if I stick to one of the Vanguard options, since TIAA is just administering the plan at the advertised fee rate?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,872
31,379
146
Thanks for those resources--they are much, much appreciated. It is a genuine treat to dive into something I little understood before with thoughtful, helpful guidance along the way.

So turns out I am required by the state as a faculty member to be enrolled in an IRAP with fixed contributions of 4.5% by me and 6% by employer. Can't contribute additional funds. But I can start a TSA-403b plan (mentioned by someone previously) to supplement it, and apparently as long as there's a "reasonable expectation that I return" to teaching at some point in the future there, I don't have to cash out/roll over the account.

Looks like among the slew of TSA options available my best options are:
Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund Institutional Plus Class Equities 18.13% 14.62% -- 11.93% 12/31/2017 0.05% / 0.05%
Vanguard Institutional Target Retirement 2045 Institutional Multi-Asset 21.47% -- -- 9.18% 12/31/2017 0.09% / 0.09%
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Institutional Multi-Asset 13.86% 10.10% 7.16% 6.44% 12/31/2017 0.06% / 0.06%

There are a shitton of T. Rowe and CREF options in there in equities and multi-asset that approach the same performance, but I really don't see how they're different except having a higher fee? I don't know, maybe I'm not allowed to share this site, but it seems pretty generic. You see anything obvious in there that I'm missing as a viable option? Don't feel obligated to look in any way. You've been super helpful already, and at this point I can talk to TIAA and see what exactly the difference is.



The Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund is what I have for ~70% of my TIAA accounts. The rest I have ~25% in a Vanguard International stock index fund and ~5% in a bond fund. (though, I like I said yesterday, I temporarily moved everything into the money market fund because of the dip...and because I'm a dummy...but this only in my TIAA account(s))

VBAIX that you have listed is also good, essentially invested like a Target retirement fund, but without the timed reallocations as you age through life. Apparently VBAIX is a solid performer, but I just don't like the 40% into bonds. I like to be at 5% or less in bonds for the entirety of my retirement accounts.

You're planning for the long haul and aren't really interested in the value less than 20 years out, in which case you should only be considering stocks for the best performance. ...just ignore the bumps along the way.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
The Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund is what I have for ~70% of my TIAA accounts. The rest I have ~25% in a Vanguard International stock index fund and ~5% in a bond fund. (though, I like I said yesterday, I temporarily moved everything into the money market fund because of the dip...and because I'm a dummy...but this only in my TIAA account(s))

VBAIX that you have listed is also good, essentially invested like a Target retirement fund, but without the timed reallocations as you age through life. Apparently VBAIX is a solid performer, but I just don't like the 40% into bonds. I like to be at 5% or less in bonds for the entirety of my retirement accounts.

You're planning for the long haul and aren't really interested in the value less than 20 years out, in which case you should only be considering stocks for the best performance. ...just ignore the bumps along the way.

I'm much the same way, though as I get older I'm slowly adding a little more in bond funds with my new purchases. I rebalance by buying new shares rather than selling existing ones.

If you buy and hold your stock index fund shares over decades, the recessions don't matter in the long run. Staying put and continuing to contribute during the dip is safer than trying to time the market.

The people who lost big during the last recession were the ones who panicked and sold at the bottom, then came back months or years later to buy in after they missed the recovery gains. "sell low, buy high" does not work very well.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,872
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I'm much the same way, though as I get older I'm slowly adding a little more in bond funds with my new purchases. I rebalance by buying new shares rather than selling existing ones.

If you buy and hold your stock index fund shares over decades, the recessions don't matter in the long run. Staying put and continuing to contribute during the dip is safer than trying to time the market.

The people who lost big during the last recession were the ones who panicked and sold at the bottom, then came back months or years later to buy in after they missed the recovery gains. "sell low, buy high" does not work very well.

Aye. In my Vanguard account, I'm starting to just put my new contributions towards a REIT or two, because I want to add a bit more "concentrated diversity," but mostly because I want to start racking up some decent dividend payers now, so by the time I need to look to them for actual income, they will be there and paying off well.

While not really a REIT, I picked up ~65 shares of LTC over the last weeks
https://www.google.com/search?q=ltc...hrome.0.0l6.1574j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

because the dividends are great, and they are essentially distributed like a REIT. I'm either going to start adding to Vanguard's REIT fund, or buy into one or two different stocks like LTC, but are invested in different groups of real estate. ...obviously, retirement homes and such seem like a no-brainer, but with the way I am, I like to keep track of these people and make sure they aren't shady and abusive. Those things do piss me off.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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Thanks for this and the other help Exterous. It's a huge load off. Will keep in mind that there's no need to jump ship in ten or fifteen years as well. So that I am clear--my only option with this employer is through a TIAA 403b. Am I correct in assuming that the link I posted a second ago lists as options a whole bunch of investment plans that would be available to anyone, including outside of TIAA? In other words, going into my meeting with them, your words of caution could be answered if I stick to one of the Vanguard options, since TIAA is just administering the plan at the advertised fee rate?

So as a bit of a step back - most people have to deal with crappy 401k\403b options and sales people who are highly incentivized to move people into certain funds whether its in the best interests of the customer or not. TIAA just had a reputation for being 'one of the good guys' which seems to no longer be deserved. That doesn't mean there are no good options with them just that you should be aware that the investment world has a lot of incentives for people who are 'helping you' to maybe help you a little bit less to line their pockets a little bit more. Companies change too so don't blindly trust one because they've been ok in the past. Its good that you are taking the time to learn about this so you are less likely to be taken advantage of.

In regards to the links you mentioned:
Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund Institutional Plus Class is a Small and Mid cap fund. Cap tilts may have their place in a portfolio based on methodology but I would not make it a substantial commitment and not without understanding the risks\rewards behind doing so.
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Institutional is potentially a good mix of stocks and bonds depending on your risk tolerance (too safe for my tastes but thats me) but only US stocks and bonds. The prevailing recommendation is to have between 20-40% in international stocks and 0-20% in international bonds. You could, of course, make up the difference with a different fund in this account or a different account.
Vanguard Institutional Target Retirement 2045 Institutional is a good set and forget option as it will 'rebalance' for you as you get older. This means it will decrease its domestic and international stock portion and increase your bond and TIPS portion. This reduces volatility and preserves capital to make sure your retirement account balance is where you need it to be when you retire. There is some debate as to whether it has the right mix of domestic\international stocks and the stock to bond ratio (Even vanguard has tweaked it a few times) so many people choose to go their own route if appropriate funds are available

So if I click on "Show More" on your TIAA site I see these funds are also options:
https://www.tiaa.org/public/tcm/min...ce/nonpropmutualfunds/profile?ticker=22893353
https://www.tiaa.org/public/tcm/min...nce/nonpropmutualfunds/profile?ticker=6906193
https://www.tiaa.org/public/tcm/min...ance/nonpropmutualfunds/profile?ticker=316335

A bond index, an international stock index and a domestic stock index. These would create the popular 3 fund portfolio which comprises indexes that consistently beat 75-90% of the mutual funds in the same category
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Three-fund_portfolio

They would also form the base of more complicated options that start to gain exposure to REITs, Small or Mid cap tilts etc:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Lazy_portfolios

Something you will want to figure out is what you want your various asset weights to be. How much in domestic stock, now much in international, bonds etc. This is not an exact science so people have different methodologies and risk tolerance. As you get older you will generally want your investments to get safer. That said everything in investing has caveats and this "rule" is no different. For longer retirement time frames (over 30 years) you will want to have a higher stock allocation to deal with your increased withdrawal timeframe. That said here are some very rough guidelines:
Stocks: 60-80% domestic large cap 20-40% international large cap
Stock\Bond allocation: Between 20-60% in bonds based on age - the older you are the more bonds you generally want to have
TIPS\REITS\SmallCap etc: 5-10% IF you chose to do this. Weightings less than 5% are not worth your time. Weightings more than 10% get significantly more risky for minimal return\diversification

Keep in mind that some of the asset balance needs to be related to your risk tolerance. It can be a gut punch to watch your portfolio crumble before your eyes and you will be tempted to sell. Everyone says "I won't do that" but millions did in 2008\2009 and royally screwed up their accounts. If you need a higher bond portion or want to include TIPS for that piece of mind or to not panic and sell, giving up some gains to prevent that is a very good trade off.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you will want to balance your investments across ALL of your and your wife's funds. This can be complicated depending on your options but well worth the time and effort to do. Depending on your goals and fund options you may be able to keep certain accounts only invested in one or two funds. For example my wife's 403b is only one international stock index. I have a 401a that is only one domestic stock index. However my 403b and 457 accounts have several funds which allows me to keep my desired allocation by adjusting how much I contribute to the funds in response to our increasing age and the performance of the funds (So if domestic stocks are doing much better than bonds I have to increase my bond contributions in those funds while decreasing my stock contribution to keep my over all portfolio ratio in line. The general rule of them is rebalance once your allocations get out of sync by more than 5 points. My desired international stock percent is 35% so I don't typically do much unless it hits 30-31%)
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,872
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The Vanguard Extended Market Index Fund is what I have for ~70% of my TIAA accounts. The rest I have ~25% in a Vanguard International stock index fund and ~5% in a bond fund. (though, I like I said yesterday, I temporarily moved everything into the money market fund because of the dip...and because I'm a dummy...but this only in my TIAA account(s))

VBAIX that you have listed is also good, essentially invested like a Target retirement fund, but without the timed reallocations as you age through life. Apparently VBAIX is a solid performer, but I just don't like the 40% into bonds. I like to be at 5% or less in bonds for the entirety of my retirement accounts.

You're planning for the long haul and aren't really interested in the value less than 20 years out, in which case you should only be considering stocks for the best performance. ...just ignore the bumps along the way.

Exterous fixed my error in PM. This is not the fund that I hold, but the 3rd one that he linked in his preceding post:
https://www.tiaa.org/public/tcm/min...ance/nonpropmutualfunds/profile?ticker=316335

It is basically VTSAX

He described VEMX (or whatever) as all mid and small cap, at which point I realized no, that can't be the fund I hold. Then thought nothing of it, but because he is a swell guy, like I said, he PM'd me anyway to make sure that I hadn't done something foolish.
:D
 
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Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
Exterous fixed my error in PM. This is not the fund that I hold, but the 3rd one that he linked in his preceding post:
https://www.tiaa.org/public/tcm/min...ance/nonpropmutualfunds/profile?ticker=316335

It is basically VTSAX

He described VEMX (or whatever) as all mid and small cap, at which point I realized no, that can't be the fund I hold. Then thought nothing of it, but because he is a swell guy, like I said, he PM'd me anyway to make sure that I hadn't don't something foolish.
:D

Ha! Well thanks for the update (I was confused by it given what Exterous said), and kudos to him for the act of a good Samaritan.