Is Edward Jones for suckers?

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MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
9,294
8,603
136
My dad was a financial guy, yet he invested with Edward Jones...

I am not a financial guy, but I have a number of accounts with Edward Jones, all doing well, and now providing income. I guess some of it depends on the agent. Mine takes the time to explain everything and let me decide, no pressure to do anything. Got enough with them that they don't charge me any fees.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
Ah,

So VTSAX is one of the more popular Index funds from Vanguard. It is typically only available in their personal brokerage accounts. However, if your University offers Vanguard as an option, you may be able to purchase VTSAX through that account, or more likely you have an option for an "Institutional" total stock market Index--which has an even lower fee: 0.03 or 0.02%, and no minimum for that fee (Admiral Funds class minimum investment--the 0.04% fee--in personal accounts is $10k).

however, TIAA offers similar total __x__ market funds, as does Fidelity and others with very low fees. I just go throught the list of funds, look for those at <0.5%, total "something market" fund, and dump my money there.

Ok, this is starting to make sense now, thanks. Sounds like if there's any "total x" market fund through my university and I can contribute enough, then that's going to be the no-brainer. Are there restrictions to setting up one of these personal brokerage accounts for the sole purpose of starting a VTSAX account to use, if option A isn't available? I've poked around the Vanguard site a few times, but it was super intimidating and I actually couldn't find a way as an individual to even start an account (entirely possible I was missing an obvious necessary step).

Relatedly, I'm assuming what you've been talking about are 401ks or equivalentn thus far, which means they cap at 18.5k per year. Is there any value in starting a Roth/traditional IRA if I can't make that 18.5? I can't really see any value except that perhaps the penalties are lower/the accounts are more flexible if you need to tap into them in emergency situations (which none of us really expect, but we keep plenty of $$ in savings to mitigate really anything except a catastrophic medical emergency).

Last question, I promise. Wife's grandfather will likely leave us a decent chunk of change in his will within the next few years (somewhere in the low five figures I'd imagine). Aside from just maxing retirement contribution to this account that I set up/settle on in the next six months, is there anything more creative I should start reading about now?

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful advice and clarification so far, by the way. You've made a confusing process much less painful so far.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,553
3,713
126
Ah,

So VTSAX is one of the more popular Index funds from Vanguard. It is typically only available in their personal brokerage accounts. However, if your University offers Vanguard as an option, you may be able to purchase VTSAX through that account, or more likely you have an option for an "Institutional" total stock market Index--which has an even lower fee: 0.03 or 0.02%, and no minimum for that fee (Admiral Funds class minimum investment--the 0.04% fee--in personal accounts is $10k).

Start with the TIAA account that your university offers ( I've had these, and currently use it as my primary) and at the very least meet your minimum that they will match.

There have been some changes by TIAA and Vanguard in the 403b\457 market that are not all that customer friendly. Vanguard now outsources a lot of administration to the Newport Group. Not only were there a lot of issues with the transition but it has royally screwed up their website functions (many reports\graphs show an error unless you go to a second website. Things that used to be on one screen are now on 4-5). Customer service took a big hit, the annual fee 'record keeping' (or whatever it was called) went up 4x although supposedly you get access to things like loans and additional fund options (but that also depends on your institution). Vanguard is also charging other institutions more to offer their funds so ERs for Vanguard funds at Fidelity\Schwab etc have gone up at those places

TIAA is cutting back on customer service and is facing allegations its pushing customers into higher cost\less customer friendly options via higher sales quotas and incentives. I have personally seen this in both of my interactions with them. The two different TIAA people I met with had no interest in answering my more in depth questions and basically said "You don't want those index funds. Lets see what we can do about getting you into some better performing mutual funds" Yeah - gtfo. I realize you can find this at a lot of places but there was a long thread over at Bogleheads about this and many reported the same thing. There is a whistle blower case against them at the SEC and there have been several lawsuits settled for excessive fees charged - even for their own employees.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/business/the-finger-pointing-at-the-finance-firm-tiaa.html

It might be worth considering Fidelity although the Vanguard problems are more manageable than TIAA's imo.

Take a look at the funds they offer and pick those with the lowest fees, most stable.

Heh - those would be money market funds ;)

I moved my 401k from my old company profit sharing to Edward Jones... I paid about 1600 roughly last year in admin fees etc, but I made about 19k. to me I will pay someone 1500 a year to make 19k... Pretty much a no brainer.. I dont have time to sit down and pick and choose and really day trade. I have mine in a pretty solid return...

Since most mutual funds (75-90%) under perform an index every year I'd be curious to know what you were invested in to compare with an index. My suspicion is that over a few years you overpaid for your returns
 

DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
2,262
326
126
Ok, this is starting to make sense now, thanks. Sounds like if there's any "total x" market fund through my university and I can contribute enough, then that's going to be the no-brainer. Are there restrictions to setting up one of these personal brokerage accounts for the sole purpose of starting a VTSAX account to use, if option A isn't available? I've poked around the Vanguard site a few times, but it was super intimidating and I actually couldn't find a way as an individual to even start an account (entirely possible I was missing an obvious necessary step).

Relatedly, I'm assuming what you've been talking about are 401ks or equivalentn thus far, which means they cap at 18.5k per year. Is there any value in starting a Roth/traditional IRA if I can't make that 18.5? I can't really see any value except that perhaps the penalties are lower/the accounts are more flexible if you need to tap into them in emergency situations (which none of us really expect, but we keep plenty of $$ in savings to mitigate really anything except a catastrophic medical emergency).

Last question, I promise. Wife's grandfather will likely leave us a decent chunk of change in his will within the next few years (somewhere in the low five figures I'd imagine). Aside from just maxing retirement contribution to this account that I set up/settle on in the next six months, is there anything more creative I should start reading about now?

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful advice and clarification so far, by the way. You've made a confusing process much less painful so far.

Go take an estate planning course at a local university. It will cover wills, trusts, probate, etc.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
Much appreciated--I know a zillion people go the schwab/EJ route because it must work for them, but this is good to know. I assumed my university plan would at least be in the top percentiles for "we won't overtly screw you over," but more info is better.

Schwab =/= EJ. Schwab is a DIY investment approach suited well for buying mutual funds at low cost. EJ is entry level financial advisor retirement advising.

Anybody with any substantial amount of retirement net worth that is at EJ is better served with a independent financial advisor. EJ is all about fee generation and referrals. Just about any independent CFP will do better for you EJ.

Schwab is a good route after you have maxed out any employment matching programs if those same programs happen to have higher fees than Schwab. Just stick it in a target and forget about it more or less. Then when you are north of $500k retirement you probably want to start thinking about an active CFP to start handling it.
 

DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
2,262
326
126
Schwab =/= EJ. Schwab is a DIY investment approach suited well for buying mutual funds at low cost. EJ is entry level financial advisor retirement advising.

Anybody with any substantial amount of retirement net worth that is at EJ is better served with a independent financial advisor. EJ is all about fee generation and referrals. Just about any independent CFP will do better for you EJ.

Schwab is a good route after you have maxed out any employment matching programs if those same programs happen to have higher fees than Schwab. Just stick it in a target and forget about it more or less. Then when you are north of $500k retirement you probably want to start thinking about an active CFP to start handling it.

When you are saying target, are you talking about a target date fund? Or are you talking about an ETF?
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,553
3,713
126
Ok, this is starting to make sense now, thanks. Sounds like if there's any "total x" market fund through my university and I can contribute enough, then that's going to be the no-brainer. Are there restrictions to setting up one of these personal brokerage accounts for the sole purpose of starting a VTSAX account to use, if option A isn't available? I've poked around the Vanguard site a few times, but it was super intimidating and I actually couldn't find a way as an individual to even start an account (entirely possible I was missing an obvious necessary step).

I would find out who your University offers as there are others that offer almost identical funds like Fidelity, Schwab and iShares. Going through your institution will often get you access to funds with lower fees than doing it yourself. Also keep in mind that funds are not restricted to financial institutions. It is possible to find Fidelity funds at Vanguard or vise versa. You should be able to get an 'available fund' list from the financial institutions your employer uses

Relatedly, I'm assuming what you've been talking about are 401ks or equivalentn thus far, which means they cap at 18.5k per year. Is there any value in starting a Roth/traditional IRA if I can't make that 18.5? I can't really see any value except that perhaps the penalties are lower/the accounts are more flexible if you need to tap into them in emergency situations (which none of us really expect, but we keep plenty of $$ in savings to mitigate really anything except a catastrophic medical emergency).

So some 401k\403b\457 plans do let you take loans out which may or may not have lower penalties than a Roth\tIRA. Another benefit of a Roth would come into play if your current tax rate is lower than what you think your tax rate will be in retirement. For example if you're in the 15% tax bracket now but think you'll be in the 25% later you would essentially pay the 15% tax on Roth contributions now and get the money tax free later as opposed to not paying taxes now on traditional IRA\401k plans and paying 25% later. But that doesn't take into consideration that perhaps having a lower tax bill now will let you invest more than you would normally.

Another thing to consider is if you have access to a 457 account at work as well. This is a separate plan that is similar to a 401k\403b with two very big differences. The first is that it has a separate cap meaning you can put an additional $18.5k away along side the 403b's $18.5k. The other is that to withdraw the funds without penalty you only need to no longer be employed by that employer. So if you retire at 50 (or even just change employers) you can get $ out of a 457 without penalty (just pay income tax) while a 403b would charge the early withdrawal penalty since you're under 59.5 years of age.

Last question, I promise. Wife's grandfather will likely leave us a decent chunk of change in his will within the next few years (somewhere in the low five figures I'd imagine). Aside from just maxing retirement contribution to this account that I set up/settle on in the next six months, is there anything more creative I should start reading about now?

Assuming this is an inheritance or gift (under the gift tax exemption) you will want to keep in mind that this money is untaxed. This opens up tax arbitrage opportunities. If you put it in a Roth you will not have paid taxes on the inheritance\gift and will not have to pay taxes on the gains. (The low IRA contribution limits will slow this though). You could also use this money to live off of and completely max out your 40Xy savings options. This could lead to an absurdly low tax bill come April 15th. Depending on your income, current tax bracket and how big the inheritance\gift ends up being you could potentially do this for many years. As an example (with a made up income tax bracket):

Your income tax bracket is 25%. You put the remaining inheritance\gift $ into a taxable investment account. You periodically sell holdings in this account to generate income to live on as you max out your Roth IRA, 403b account, your 457 account and your wife's Roth IRA and 401k account. You do this because you would pay 25% on your employment income that is now going into those plans untaxed (except for the Roths). Instead of paying this 25% you are now paying 15% on just the gains of from the holdings you sell in your taxable investment account.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,587
30,838
146
Ok, this is starting to make sense now, thanks. Sounds like if there's any "total x" market fund through my university and I can contribute enough, then that's going to be the no-brainer. Are there restrictions to setting up one of these personal brokerage accounts for the sole purpose of starting a VTSAX account to use, if option A isn't available? I've poked around the Vanguard site a few times, but it was super intimidating and I actually couldn't find a way as an individual to even start an account (entirely possible I was missing an obvious necessary step).

It's really no different than setting up a bank account. Every thing can be done online, with no human interaction. Give them the personal info they need, link at least one bank or savings account, and you are good to go. The primary difference is setting up an IRA versus a standard brokerage account (though Vanguard recently renamed all of their accounts with a brokerage label on everything, so now it is a "brokerage IRA," for example). The main difference is that the IRAs or other tax-deferred savings accounts have their yearly investment limits, fees for early withdrawals, and fees or lack of fees and taxes for transactions within the account. The benefit of differentiating between the type of shares within each account is that you might want to consider putting the higher-taxed funds (so you have some REITS or other dividend funds that actually pay you monthly or quarterly, at higher percentages, thus entail a greater number of annual taxable events) into your IRA, so that you don't have to worry about keeping track of those events. VTSAX is a great option for anything, but particularly with a standard brokerage account because it pays a low percentage, quarterly dividend that isn't going to cause much of an annual tax hassle beyond your typical low-interest savings accounts.
Also, while IRAs have a maximum annual contribution, those limits do not apply to rollover values. Say you have 10k sitting in an old employer retirement account, and you want to transfer it to your personal IRA or a current employer 401/403. All of that value can be transferred over in one go, and none of it applies to your annual maximum. The annual maximum refers to income only, so whatever you earn/contribute as income in that tax year. Rollover money is considered previous year income.

Relatedly, I'm assuming what you've been talking about are 401ks or equivalentn thus far, which means they cap at 18.5k per year. Is there any value in starting a Roth/traditional IRA if I can't make that 18.5? I can't really see any value except that perhaps the penalties are lower/the accounts are more flexible if you need to tap into them in emergency situations (which none of us really expect, but we keep plenty of $$ in savings to mitigate really anything except a catastrophic medical emergency).

There really isn't an additional financial value in starting an additional trIRA if you can't max your 401, but it also doesn't hurt anything. I like mine because I consider it my "Actual retirement account" When I have left this current job, whenever that will be, and on and on, those accounts will be rolled into my personal Vanguard IRA. I'd say there is value in opening a ROTH IRA, however, because they are taxed differently and the interest earned on those contributions don't suffer withdrawal and tax penalties, unlike other IRAs. I like to think of it as a hyper savings account, assuming you've been adding to one for some time, or have a long-term plan (say 5-10 years and longer), want to make a down payment on something fun or necessary (Say, new house, boat, small island). You can keep contributing to that and the interest earned, many years later, is basically untaxable cash that you can use for that down payment, thus increasing the actual value of your payment. ....and of course if you have balls you can buy individual shares of whatever you want in these accounts and benefit from their tax-deferred status, so they could grow much faster than the typical, expected ~7-8% per year, over time if sticking to Index funds, but that requires lots of luck and, balls.

Last question, I promise. Wife's grandfather will likely leave us a decent chunk of change in his will within the next few years (somewhere in the low five figures I'd imagine). Aside from just maxing retirement contribution to this account that I set up/settle on in the next six months, is there anything more creative I should start reading about now?

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful advice and clarification so far, by the way. You've made a confusing process much less painful so far.

If you don't have any specific plans and/or needs for that money, I would just keep it as spending cash and max out your contributions on your paycheck until you reach that year's contribution limit. (AKA: how to effectively transfer taxable inheritance into your tax-deferred retirement account). Or just use the first chunk to open a new Roth IRA if you don't have one by then.

One option to consider, if you meet the requirements to open one, is an HSA. This requires you to have access to only expensive healthcare plans and, uh, I forget the rest. I only know that I can't open one, which sucks. It's basically a trIRA and Roth IRA all in one, but with much tighter annual max contributions (something like $3550, I think....and I think it was recently lowered). Sometimes Employers offer these--you can check with HR, but I think you can only open one during Open Enrollment, but if your Employer doesn't offer them, you can open your own, at various banks. Some access to funds aren't that great, from what I hear, so it really depends on where you open it. This involves a lot of record-keeping and patience. ...basically the idea is to max out that HSA every year, pay all of your "medical expenses" out of pocket, KEEP YOUR RECEIPTS, and then several, many, whatever years later, start claiming those receipts from your HSA (pay yourself back), as you can withdraw money from them at any time, tax free, to cover approved medical expenses (I believe they are really generous with classifying expenses, too: an ergo chair, for example). The benefit is best realized as long as you can keep the investment within your account really high for many years, to benefit from compound interest, then only start paying yourself back later in life, when you start to see health needs (and the claims do not expire--so yeah, you can make a claim on 20 year+ old co-pay or medical device, prescription, whatever). This is not a Flexible Spending Account, which they are often confused with. Those are use-it or lose-it accounts that expire annually, and only really save you minimum deferred tax savings each year--basically garbage, imo.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,587
30,838
146
There have been some changes by TIAA and Vanguard in the 403b\457 market that are not all that customer friendly. Vanguard now outsources a lot of administration to the Newport Group. Not only were there a lot of issues with the transition but it has royally screwed up their website functions (many reports\graphs show an error unless you go to a second website. Things that used to be on one screen are now on 4-5). Customer service took a big hit, the annual fee 'record keeping' (or whatever it was called) went up 4x although supposedly you get access to things like loans and additional fund options (but that also depends on your institution). Vanguard is also charging other institutions more to offer their funds so ERs for Vanguard funds at Fidelity\Schwab etc have gone up at those places

TIAA is cutting back on customer service and is facing allegations its pushing customers into higher cost\less customer friendly options via higher sales quotas and incentives. I have personally seen this in both of my interactions with them. The two different TIAA people I met with had no interest in answering my more in depth questions and basically said "You don't want those index funds. Lets see what we can do about getting you into some better performing mutual funds" Yeah - gtfo. I realize you can find this at a lot of places but there was a long thread over at Bogleheads about this and many reported the same thing. There is a whistle blower case against them at the SEC and there have been several lawsuits settled for excessive fees charged - even for their own employees.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/21/business/the-finger-pointing-at-the-finance-firm-tiaa.html

It might be worth considering Fidelity although the Vanguard problems are more manageable than TIAA's imo.



Heh - those would be money market funds ;)



Since most mutual funds (75-90%) under perform an index every year I'd be curious to know what you were invested in to compare with an index. My suspicion is that over a few years you overpaid for your returns

Dang, I didn't know that! D:

I'm not too worried about it, though: I just pick the handful of funds I pick and monitor them ~monthly (used to be weekly) to make sure everything is where I expect it to be. We do have those quarterly consultation appointments on campus, but I never sign up for them. I was planning to do that a couple of years ago when I realized, like OP "Oh damn, I need to start figuring this out!" and I had various accounts scattered everywhere, from old Employers, and needed to figure out how best to rollover everything and where I wanted to put it. I thought it would be useful, but now I realize these meetings might be there just to up-sell some shitty funds?

We did have our accounts "re-shuffled" at the beginning of this year. There were several emails and then messages within the account page about it, but I didn't notice any structural change to fees or anything like that. I'm honestly not sure what it was about--maybe they were consolidating funds among various groups because they were cutting jobs?

My understanding is that the shadiness with the Retirement Investment firms and Employer account is usually between the Firm agent and the Employer's agent--basically steering them towards expensive options and limiting what is available in the employee's accounts. I didn't know they were directly advising employees in this way. I get that this goes on everywhere, and you certainly have great agents to go along with the shady ones, I just assumed that the shadiness from the job end was limited by your choice...eh, not that this makes it better; but at least you often have a few options from your employer and can switch accounts if you want.

Oh! I should add that the only funds I keep in my TIAA (employers) retirement accounts are Vanguard funds (total US and total International Stock Index funds....and a tiny percentage of Bond Index funds) The TIAA funds that they offered looked like garbage.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
I would go with a Vanguard.com account instead of EJ. You only need low-expense index funds with them to be fully diversified and there's no reason to pay a financial adviser a chunk of your earnings.

These 4 index ETFs are good: US & foreign stocks: VTI, VXUS; US & foreign bonds: BND, BNDX

You can start out with just VTI for US stocks, then add the others later as you put more funds into your brokerage account(s).

It's a little more work, but you can also look at your allocations across all of your accounts. For example, if your wife's retirement account has good low-expense stock index funds but no good bond funds you could make her account 100% stocks then balance that with bond fund shares at Vanguard.

The key parts for most people are: low expense ratio funds, if possible index funds instead of actively managed "stock picker" funds, and not thinking you need 20 different funds. The VTI fund gives you the entire US stock market, so it's already diversified. If you want to weight your stocks towards more "large cap" stocks you could add an S&P 500 index fund or ETF.

Edit: note for fees you can avoid most or all of them by choosing electronic delivery / paperless instead of having them snail mail you things.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,553
3,713
126
Dang, I didn't know that! D:

I'm not too worried about it, though: I just pick the handful of funds I pick and monitor them ~monthly (used to be weekly) to make sure everything is where I expect it to be. We do have those quarterly consultation appointments on campus, but I never sign up for them. I was planning to do that a couple of years ago when I realized, like OP "Oh damn, I need to start figuring this out!" and I had various accounts scattered everywhere, from old Employers, and needed to figure out how best to rollover everything and where I wanted to put it. I thought it would be useful, but now I realize these meetings might be there just to up-sell some shitty funds?

We did have our accounts "re-shuffled" at the beginning of this year. There were several emails and then messages within the account page about it, but I didn't notice any structural change to fees or anything like that. I'm honestly not sure what it was about--maybe they were consolidating funds among various groups because they were cutting jobs?

My understanding is that the shadiness with the Retirement Investment firms and Employer account is usually between the Firm agent and the Employer's agent--basically steering them towards expensive options and limiting what is available in the employee's accounts. I didn't know they were directly advising employees in this way. I get that this goes on everywhere, and you certainly have great agents to go along with the shady ones, I just assumed that the shadiness from the job end was limited by your choice...eh, not that this makes it better; but at least you often have a few options from your employer and can switch accounts if you want.

Oh! I should add that the only funds I keep in my TIAA (employers) retirement accounts are Vanguard funds (total US and total International Stock Index funds....and a tiny percentage of Bond Index funds) The TIAA funds that they offered looked like garbage.

Yeah if you're comfortable doing it yourself it doesn't matter but I would be concerned about what level of advice they give if you're looking for help. Unfortunately those negative interactions I've had and read about do all seem to be from Agent to employee. In addition to a one on one meeting with a TIAA rep I've actually been to a few of those on campus meetings if they coincide with my visit. Its a mixture of being curious what the presentation is, making sure I'm not missing anything and a free lunch. (I always tell them when I RSVP that I don't work there but do have their institution as an option and they never care). 2 TIAA, 1 Vanguard, 1 Fidelity and 1 American Funds (I think thats who it was). The American fund one left me feeling like I needed a shower. Ugh. One TIAA was fine - just a brief mention on their higher fee options but well done and a good overview, but I didn't have time to talk to one of the Advisers to see if there was a sales pitch. Another one was bad - wrong time, wrong room, too few lunches, obviously pushing sales goals. The Vanguard and Fidelity ones were basically the same. Light overview on what you should do with options for a more in depth planning if you wanted. Talked to the Fidelity guy since thats who I use and there was no sales pitch at all.

Do you know if your Vanguard funds changed rates at all? Some places are supposedly added as much as 0.05 to the ER for those. My plan only added 0.005 to the one Vanguard fund I have at Fidelity and I'm too lazy to see if there is an alternative for that low of an increase.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
It's really no different than setting up a bank account. Every thing can be done online, with no human interaction. Give them the personal info they need, link at least one bank or savings account, and you are good to go. The primary difference is setting up an IRA versus a standard brokerage account (though Vanguard recently renamed all of their accounts with a brokerage label on everything, so now it is a "brokerage IRA," for example). The main difference is that the IRAs or other tax-deferred savings accounts have their yearly investment limits, fees for early withdrawals, and fees or lack of fees and taxes for transactions within the account. The benefit of differentiating between the type of shares within each account is that you might want to consider putting the higher-taxed funds (so you have some REITS or other dividend funds that actually pay you monthly or quarterly, at higher percentages, thus entail a greater number of annual taxable events) into your IRA, so that you don't have to worry about keeping track of those events. VTSAX is a great option for anything, but particularly with a standard brokerage account because it pays a low percentage, quarterly dividend that isn't going to cause much of an annual tax hassle beyond your typical low-interest savings accounts.
Also, while IRAs have a maximum annual contribution, those limits do not apply to rollover values. Say you have 10k sitting in an old employer retirement account, and you want to transfer it to your personal IRA or a current employer 401/403. All of that value can be transferred over in one go, and none of it applies to your annual maximum. The annual maximum refers to income only, so whatever you earn/contribute as income in that tax year. Rollover money is considered previous year income.



There really isn't an additional financial value in starting an additional trIRA if you can't max your 401, but it also doesn't hurt anything. I like mine because I consider it my "Actual retirement account" When I have left this current job, whenever that will be, and on and on, those accounts will be rolled into my personal Vanguard IRA. I'd say there is value in opening a ROTH IRA, however, because they are taxed differently and the interest earned on those contributions don't suffer withdrawal and tax penalties, unlike other IRAs. I like to think of it as a hyper savings account, assuming you've been adding to one for some time, or have a long-term plan (say 5-10 years and longer), want to make a down payment on something fun or necessary (Say, new house, boat, small island). You can keep contributing to that and the interest earned, many years later, is basically untaxable cash that you can use for that down payment, thus increasing the actual value of your payment. ....and of course if you have balls you can buy individual shares of whatever you want in these accounts and benefit from their tax-deferred status, so they could grow much faster than the typical, expected ~7-8% per year, over time if sticking to Index funds, but that requires lots of luck and, balls.
If you don't have any specific plans and/or needs for that money, I would just keep it as spending cash and max out your contributions on your paycheck until you reach that year's contribution limit. (AKA: how to effectively transfer taxable inheritance into your tax-deferred retirement account). Or just use the first chunk to open a new Roth IRA if you don't have one by then.

One option to consider, if you meet the requirements to open one, is an HSA. This requires you to have access to only expensive healthcare plans and, uh, I forget the rest. I only know that I can't open one, which sucks. It's basically a trIRA and Roth IRA all in one, but with much tighter annual max contributions (something like $3550, I think....and I think it was recently lowered). Sometimes Employers offer these--you can check with HR, but I think you can only open one during Open Enrollment, but if your Employer doesn't offer them, you can open your own, at various banks. Some access to funds aren't that great, from what I hear, so it really depends on where you open it. This involves a lot of record-keeping and patience. ...basically the idea is to max out that HSA every year, pay all of your "medical expenses" out of pocket, KEEP YOUR RECEIPTS, and then several, many, whatever years later, start claiming those receipts from your HSA (pay yourself back), as you can withdraw money from them at any time, tax free, to cover approved medical expenses (I believe they are really generous with classifying expenses, too: an ergo chair, for example). The benefit is best realized as long as you can keep the investment within your account really high for many years, to benefit from compound interest, then only start paying yourself back later in life, when you start to see health needs (and the claims do not expire--so yeah, you can make a claim on 20 year+ old co-pay or medical device, prescription, whatever). This is not a Flexible Spending Account, which they are often confused with. Those are use-it or lose-it accounts that expire annually, and only really save you minimum deferred tax savings each year--basically garbage, imo.[/QUOTE]

I think I understood about 95% of this, which is good. Thanks. We do pay 55% of our mortgage bi-weekly so that every year we get an extra two payments in, and last year paid our property tax out of pocket to get in on that last opportunity to get the tax break before the new bill went into effect. I had the credit union print out an amortization schedule if we were to do this from here out, and it turns our 30 year mortgage into a 14 year. I realize the interest rate on our mortgage is low compared to the return rate on retirement investing, but I may continue to do so anyway if we can get near the max contribution for the 401k/IRA, because I'm drawn to the idea of paying off this house ASAP.

We also do have and HSA that we pump money into to the tune of a few thousand a year, and it's matched to a certain percent by the employer, which is nice. Didn't know that there isn't a "statute of limitations" on them, so you can claim stuff as old as you want. Good to know. The whole thing about paying everything out of pocket so that you get the benefit of the compound interest and then paying yourself back at some predetermined time in the future---I totally get the advantage, but man, I'd have to see some serious return on the money to go through that granular, painstaking of a process and be convinced to keep that detailed of records and receipts. What if there's a fire, or my dropbox loses all the digital copies or some shit? I'd also have to be convinced that I wouldn't have to watch every fricking piece of healthcare legislation over the next two decades to make sure they don't get rid of the statute and totally fuck me over. At this point we just pay for stuff using the HSA and get the (admittedly smaller) benefit from that.

Both you and the other guy mentioned this strategy of turning taxable inheritance into tax-deferred retirement, and I think this is both relatively simple and a great idea and I'll remember it. Thanks. Seems like it only requires me to jack up our contributions when the inheritance comes through, live on it, then switch everything back once that inheritance is gone. Smart idea. Not for nothing, but this is the kind of thing I was leaning towards Edward Jones for--yes, the retirement stuff which is important and complicated, but this kind of thing as well which I would like to know is an option. By no means are we dealing with significant amounts of money at this point, but in the last five years we went from grad students with an annual household income of $30k to triple that, and I'd like to begin the process of having a more nuanced approach to wealth management than "continue living like poor grad students and just put everything in a half a percent credit union savings account."

I also like the idea of treating the Roth like a hyper long-term savings account. I've got no beef with tossing some money in there each month for ten or fifteen years and seeing what happens. The stuff about TIAA being shady is a bummer, but sounds like can't be avoided by your average joe.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
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I would go with a Vanguard.com account instead of EJ. You only need low-expense index funds with them to be fully diversified and there's no reason to pay a financial adviser a chunk of your earnings.

These 4 index ETFs are good: US & foreign stocks: VTI, VXUS; US & foreign bonds: BND, BNDX

You can start out with just VTI for US stocks, then add the others later as you put more funds into your brokerage account(s).

It's a little more work, but you can also look at your allocations across all of your accounts. For example, if your wife's retirement account has good low-expense stock index funds but no good bond funds you could make her account 100% stocks then balance that with bond fund shares at Vanguard.

The key parts for most people are: low expense ratio funds, if possible index funds instead of actively managed "stock picker" funds, and not thinking you need 20 different funds. The VTI fund gives you the entire US stock market, so it's already diversified. If you want to weight your stocks towards more "large cap" stocks you could add an S&P 500 index fund or ETF.

Edit: note for fees you can avoid most or all of them by choosing electronic delivery / paperless instead of having them snail mail you things.

Thanks Dave. Good to know. Wife's current retirement is through Empower and is just a Vanguard Target Retirement 2050 Trust II. It seems to have been doing well, but yeah we'll want to make sure it re-balances as we get old or the account gets big enough.

Sounds like I'll stick at the outset here with some sort of index fund with a low maintenance fee. Hopefully I can just get this through my current university employer
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,587
30,838
146
sorry I messed up the quote tags, but edited it before you were able to post, :D

anyway:

By no means are we dealing with significant amounts of money at this point, but in the last five years we went from grad students with an annual household income of $30k to triple that, and I'd like to begin the process of having a more nuanced approach to wealth management than "continue living like poor grad students and just put everything in a half a percent credit union savings account."

How about: continue to live like poor graduate students...but make triple the money and invest it wisely in non-shitty credit union savings accounts. That's what I do. :D

I worship the greater theory of achieving wealth through limited spending. But I have backed off a little bit....only a little bit. It can become tiresome trying to sustain a weekly diet of olive oil by the tablespoon, especially when you know that you don't have to.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
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81
Looks like the university my wife is at also has a six-course arc for certified financial planners on everything from estate to tax to retirement to investing. Will be seeing if her tuition waiver can be used for these courses for sure. First one starts in June. Could be fun to learn.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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> Wife's current retirement is through Empower and is just a Vanguard Target Retirement 2050 Trust II.

Nice, that's a better choice than many employers offer and it's a fully diversified mix of low-expense index funds that automatically rebalances itself to add more bond shares as you near retirement. A Vanguard <target> fund is a pretty good single-fund choice for most people.

ETFs can be more tax-efficient than mutual funds, but that only matters once you reach the point that you are maxing out all retirement fund options and need to open a non-retirement brokerage account.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
sorry I messed up the quote tags, but edited it before you were able to post, :D

anyway:



How about: continue to live like poor graduate students...but make triple the money and invest it wisely in non-shitty credit union savings accounts. That's what I do. :D

I worship the greater theory of achieving wealth through limited spending. But I have backed off a little bit....only a little bit. It can become tiresome trying to sustain a weekly diet of olive oil by the tablespoon, especially when you know that you don't have to.

A-fucking-men. Can honestly say that it was as great a rush buying a house after fifteen years of renting as it was walking down the aisle for my PhD. And when my wife says every three months (because she's even more frugal than me) "Can I buy X, it costs forty dollars?" I get a thrill knowing that we no longer have to decide between being a new pair of jeans or paying for gas to drive back home when a friend gets married.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,587
30,838
146
Do you know if your Vanguard funds changed rates at all? Some places are supposedly added as much as 0.05 to the ER for those. My plan only added 0.005 to the one Vanguard fund I have at Fidelity and I'm too lazy to see if there is an alternative for that low of an increase.

You mean the Vanguard funds within TIAA? I don't know...but will go back and check. I try to go back through the fund list every couple of months because they do add/remove some from time to time. I hadn't thought to look at the expense ratios.

....I actually moved all of my TIAA, temporarily, into money market and a bit into bonds, sometime around the early February dip. stupid, I know, but it is less than 40% of my overall savings and figured, what the hey? I know all of the advice not to try and time the market--and yes, with Index funds I'm totally not gaining much of a benefit that way--but I am the type of moron that only learns from stupidity.
 

Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
6
81
> Wife's current retirement is through Empower and is just a Vanguard Target Retirement 2050 Trust II.

Nice, that's a better choice than many employers offer and it's a fully diversified mix of low-expense index funds that automatically rebalances itself to add more bond shares as you near retirement. A Vanguard <target> fund is a pretty good single-fund choice for most people.

ETFs can be more tax-efficient than mutual funds, but that only matters once you reach the point that you are maxing out all retirement fund options and need to open a non-retirement brokerage account.

Very glad to hear it. Got a meeting with my current employer later in the week to settle this situation with mine and get things going, and hopefully s/he just says I've got basically teh same option.
 

Chromagnus

Senior member
Feb 28, 2017
255
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Pretty much everything that I was going to say has been covered so I will just add as another vote to the TIAA/Vanguard route. Low fees and index funds are the key to maximizing long term gains. Don't pay someone to handle your money when they can't outperform an index in the long run, and none of them can.
 
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Raswan

Senior member
Jan 29, 2010
702
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Pretty much everything that I was going to say has been covered so I will just add as another vote to the TIAA/Vanguard route. Low fees and index funds are the key to maximizing long term gains. Don't pay someone to handle your money when they can't outperform an index in the long run, and none of them can.

Thanks chromagnus. Turns out my retirement through the university is also a 2050 target index fund. Just remains to be seen if they put a max on part-time employees (I only teach .4 FTE), and what the rules are if my classes get taken away in terms of contributing to the account.
 
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dr150

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2003
6,570
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Raswan, You should maybe look into something like Wealthfront.com to do some investing. Their advisory fee is really minimal (.25%) and they will handhold you to creating a portfolio to your needs/assets.

They do tax loss harvesting, etc that is really, really nice! And use ETFs that are cheap on the Expense Ratio, like Vanguard.

https://research.wealthfront.com/whitepapers/tax-loss-harvesting/
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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When I was a postdoc, I could have my 403(b) through Vanguard or TIAA - I went with Vanguard, since I also already had a lot of stuff there to start. Put in enough to get the full match (10%) and when I left, I rolled it over to a personal IRA to keep the university from cashing it out on me. In my current position, I have kind of a crappy match, but the fund options through Fidelity aren't too bad for my 401k.

Investing isn't rocket science. Most people will be well suited following some basic rules: find a good provider who offers low-cost index funds, then make sure you have a decent set of holdings (i.e, hold a total stock fund or an S&P500 fund, a bond fund, and an intentional stock fund), keep it balanced at whatever ratio you are comfortable with for your risk, and routinely add money to it.
 

zzuupp

Lifer
Jul 6, 2008
14,866
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I wish I could help you on EJ. I don't know anything about them.

If you do meet with them make sure you get a detailed accounting of their fees. A family friend of ours went from HS teaching to EJ and made great money with them. I guess that's good and bad. My dad did not invest with him.

Your best point is about FEES!

If one doesn't want to / can't / just doesn't understand, the fees might be worth it.
Vanguard (and a some others) Index funds are the place to be. Very low fees, but it's all self service.