Is child support outdated in the abortion age?

[ultra laser]

You guys who claim children's rights are missing a very important point. Before a child can have rights, it must first EXIST. And whether or not this child will EXIST depends entirely on the WOMAN'S choice. Women either keep abortion and give up child support or give up abortion and keep child support. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

I would also like to bring to attention a form of female deception that is quite common. A woman will knowingly stop taking her birth control but not tell her partner. She will then get pregnant and will collect her 18 years of free money. This is indeed a glaring injustice that should not be allowed to continue in a free society.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: ultra laser
You guys who claim children's rights are missing a very important point. Before a child can have rights, it must first EXIST. And whether or not this child will EXIST depends entirely on the WOMAN'S choice. Women either keep abortion and give up child support or give up abortion and keep child support. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

I would also like to bring to attention a form of female deception that is quite common. A woman will knowingly stop taking her birth control but not tell her partner. She will then get pregnant and will collect her 18 years of free money. This is indeed a glaring injustice that should not be allowed to continue in a free society.

This is where your logic fails... Once the kid is born it stops being about the man and woman who made it and becomes solely about the child and what is best for the child. Period. What's best for mommy and daddy take a back seat to what is best for the kid. Does the man get screwed most of the time... yup.

However...

I agree that some women sometime use this as a trap. I used to date one. I know. But it stops being about YOU when the kid is born. Don't like it? Use a condom. Get your nads cut. Don't take her word for it that she's on the ball with her BC. Be proactive about these things.

But once you make a kid, your wants and needs are secondary, whether you wanted that kid or not.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: ultra laser
You guys who claim children's rights are missing a very important point. Before a child can have rights, it must first EXIST. And whether or not this child will EXIST depends entirely on the WOMAN'S choice. Women either keep abortion and give up child support or give up abortion and keep child support. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

I would also like to bring to attention a form of female deception that is quite common. A woman will knowingly stop taking her birth control but not tell her partner. She will then get pregnant and will collect her 18 years of free money. This is indeed a glaring injustice that should not be allowed to continue in a free society.

This is where your logic fails... Once the kid is born it stops being about the man and woman who made it and becomes solely about the child and what is best for the child. Period. What's best for mommy and daddy take a back seat to what is best for the kid. Does the man get screwed most of the time... yup.

However...

I agree that some women sometime use this as a trap. I used to date one. I know. But it stops being about YOU when the kid is born. Don't like it? Use a condom. Get your nads cut. Don't take her word for it that she's on the ball with her BC. Be proactive about these things.

But once you make a kid, your wants and needs are secondary, whether you wanted that kid or not.

Correct. All of that revolves around being a good man and a good citizen. It is about taking personal and fiscal responsibility both in a proactive and a reactive manner.

Some of you are acting like your argument is new and improved when the fact is that it is old and stale. There is a reason why every single state does not pass legislation that goes hand in hand with what you want and that reason is because they are doing what is most fair for the mother, the father, and the child. It is not just about what is fair between the mother and the father.

You guys are correct that it is not completely fair, but the bottom line is that I think that the child should get first dibs regardless of who made the choice to let it be born. You guys are bitching about fairness and choice for the father, but how is what you want fair to the child? What choice did the kid have in this mess? How hypocritical is it of all of you to whine about fairness and choice when what you want completely takes away anything that is fair for your own child? What you want is to take away the child's slice of the pie so you can eat it yourself because money is apparently more important to you than a child that you create. What kind of a person does that make you? At least you guys out there had the power to make the choice to have sex, the choice of who to have sex with, and whether or not to use a condom. That is a hell of a lot more choice than YOUR child will have.

Man up and take some responsibility already. No matter how you slice it, it is still your kid whether you wanted it or not.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Men don't get a choice in a lot of situations.

Condoms do fail.
Getting snipped isn't 100% sure, as your body can repair it in some men
other forms of BC fail.

So even if the guy is being responsible, accidents do happen but the women get 100% of the choice as to what happens. That's not fair.

IMO it should be if one person wants the child, the birth should happen, and then the parent who wants the child has 100% of the responsibility and the other doesn't have to have any involvement in it.

Women don't have to be responsible with BC, because if they have a kid then they get money for the next 18 years from the dude.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: ultra laser
You guys who claim children's rights are missing a very important point. Before a child can have rights, it must first EXIST. And whether or not this child will EXIST depends entirely on the WOMAN'S choice. Women either keep abortion and give up child support or give up abortion and keep child support. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

I would also like to bring to attention a form of female deception that is quite common. A woman will knowingly stop taking her birth control but not tell her partner. She will then get pregnant and will collect her 18 years of free money. This is indeed a glaring injustice that should not be allowed to continue in a free society.

This is where your logic fails... Once the kid is born it stops being about the man and woman who made it and becomes solely about the child and what is best for the child. Period. What's best for mommy and daddy take a back seat to what is best for the kid. Does the man get screwed most of the time... yup.

However...

I agree that some women sometime use this as a trap. I used to date one. I know. But it stops being about YOU when the kid is born. Don't like it? Use a condom. Get your nads cut. Don't take her word for it that she's on the ball with her BC. Be proactive about these things.

But once you make a kid, your wants and needs are secondary, whether you wanted that kid or not.

I don't think people get that. Even if both people want the child, the argument gets every guy out of paying child support. You could have a couple married for over a decade, both decide to have a child, then get divorced. The father wouldn't have to pay a thing for the child.

I'm sorry, but one of the possibilities when having sex is having a child. If you want 100% certaintee, don't have sex. If you do, make sure you're safe. It may not be 100%, but it's always a possibility.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Men don't get a choice in a lot of situations.

Condoms do fail.
Getting snipped isn't 100% sure, as your body can repair it in some men
other forms of BC fail.

So even if the guy is being responsible, accidents do happen but the women get 100% of the choice as to what happens. That's not fair.

IMO it should be if one person wants the child, the birth should happen, and then the parent who wants the child has 100% of the responsibility and the other doesn't have to have any involvement in it.

Women don't have to be responsible with BC, because if they have a kid then they get money for the next 18 years from the dude.

Excellent, except it flies in the face of the argument that pro-choice folks continually use: That it's wrong to enslave a woman to 9 months of pregnancy.

Are we amending that?

 

[Oceandevi]

Don't have sex if you don't want kids. Children are the end result of sex. The orgasm is the bait.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
Don't have sex if you don't want kids. Children are the end result of sex. The orgasm is the bait.

Tell that to Cerpin Taxt. :laugh:

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As usual, the majority of the problems with these kinds of arguments revolves around the fact that those of you who hate child support look at the entire situation as being the father vs the mother. Some how....and I have no idea how this is even possible...you forgot that it is not just about the mother and the father. It is about the mother, the father, AND THE CHILD!

Child support is indeed outdated, but only in one way. That is, there is not nearly enough enforcement to ensure that the court ordered child support gets paid and too many loopholes to avoid it. The only person getting the short stick here is the kid who is 100% innocent.

I also find it funny that a certain trend I identify is that those who complain about child support also tend to be the same people who cry and argue about personal/fiscal responsibility in America all of the time. You guys are nothing but a hypocritical joke.

lol, it's hilarious when people like you are so blinded you post without actually trying to understand things. The premise here is "choice". And IF you go on with that premise - statements like mine and the OP's aren't hypocritical at all - especially when we(atleast I) haven't agreed to the "choice" premise being the correct thing. You see, "choice" is cover for only one side's responsibility so if one side can absolve themselves - why not the other?

Like the choice you made to have sex?

No sir. I am talking personal responsibility and generally being a decent parent when faced with a difficult position where you and the mother just don't work out. You know what you are getting into before you get into her. Afterward, you may have to make the choice about whether or not you are willing to support your own child. He/she still has needs whether you believe you were unfairly stuck in a position with or without a "choice".

So, what are you going to do? Personally, I would do whatever I could do at that point which will increase the chances at making my child's life better. That's taking responsibility. Your ethical argument about choice completely fails in comparison to the importance of the welfare of your own child. What man in their right mind would think otherwise?

:roll: If you'd actually READ what I've written, you'd know I agree - AFTER the child is born and kept but using the premise presented of "choice" - my point stands and your post doesn't refute, address, or change that.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
Don't have sex if you don't want kids. Children are the end result of sex. The orgasm is the bait.

Tell that to Cerpin Taxt. :laugh:

how is that relevant?

 

[MikeyLSU]

what about the couple who has a kid(both parties wanted a kid) then split up?

no child support?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is right. Many people believe abortion is wrong. They are not having an abortion no matter what, it was never a choice.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Men don't get a choice in a lot of situations.

Condoms do fail.
Getting snipped isn't 100% sure, as your body can repair it in some men
other forms of BC fail.

So even if the guy is being responsible, accidents do happen but the women get 100% of the choice as to what happens. That's not fair.

IMO it should be if one person wants the child, the birth should happen, and then the parent who wants the child has 100% of the responsibility and the other doesn't have to have any involvement in it.

Women don't have to be responsible with BC, because if they have a kid then they get money for the next 18 years from the dude.

Excellent, except it flies in the face of the argument that pro-choice folks continually use: That it's wrong to enslave a woman to 9 months of pregnancy.

Are we amending that?

Then the woman needs to take precautions for her OWN reasons. I am not saying that abortion should be eliminated, but simply that there are times where a man wants the child and woman does not. In situations like these the father should have an equal say in that choice.

I am for abortion 100%, but believe that the father should have rights and a say in what happens with the child. If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she needs to then take steps to prevent it (and use the form of BC correctly) in addition to the man taking steps to protect himself from letting it happen.

Yes accidents still will happen, but the current system is fucked up majorly and screws the father way more often than the mother. At least it would be a little more fair for both sexes my way.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Oceandevi
Don't have sex if you don't want kids. Children are the end result of sex. The orgasm is the bait.

Tell that to Cerpin Taxt. :laugh:

how is that relevant?

He's convinced sex doesn't cause pregnancy.

 

[MixMasterTang]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
The man had the choice also.

When the child is born, it is due to both the male and female.
They need to take the responsibilty of the child.

Those are very different kinds of choices. Men don't have the absolute ability to prevent a pregnancy whereas women do. An example of an equal choice in this regard would be if abortion were made illegal and women were forced to carry unwanted embryos to term.

It comes down to this, women have 100% of the choice as to whether or not a child will be born, so why shouldn't they also bear 100% of the responsibility if a man offers to waive all parental rights within a reasonable amount of time after conception?

Ever heard of a vasectomy? If you want the choice to not have a kid, there it is.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: If you'd actually READ what I've written, you'd know I agree - AFTER the child is born and kept but using the premise presented of "choice" - my point stands and your post doesn't refute, address, or change that.

Let me explain it to you really simple since all you seem to care about is choice and fairness rather than choice, fairness, and the welfare of your own children.


This is how it works now:

Mom - Gets the long fairness stick
Dad - Gets the medium fairness stick, but is pretty close to the size of the long fairness stick because it is just way too easy to avoid paying child support and they also get to choose whether or not to have sex in the first place.
Child - Gets the shortest fairness stick compared to Mom and Dad by far.


This is how it would work if you got what you wanted:

Mom - Gets long fairness stick
Dad - Gets a fairness stick equal to the size of the Mom's stick, but is only longer than what they currently get now because Dad is a cold and greedy man who decided that the way to make things fair is to steal the Child's short fairness stick and add it to his own.
Child - No longer gets any stick at all.


I understand your argument about the unborn vs born child thing, but again, that has everything to do with fairness between Mom and Dad while completely leaving the child out of the picture. Of course, the only time you actually have a problem is the case where the child is born so we might as well assume that is going to happen when discussing fairness and choice. Our government looks at it that way and puts the kids first because they are innocent and you are not. Get the picture? You are an adult. You DO have control because you choose to have sex. Take control. Take responsibility. Part of taking responsibility is considering and accepting risks as well as their consequences. I mean, you are basically taking a risk and now asking for a legal bailout of your child support obligations. You realize that right?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Keep it simple stupid. KISS. Men get to choose to/not-to (poor little weak men who cannot keep it in their pants is not an excuse)get a woman pregnant, a woman then has to choose to bear/abort the child. Clearly it all starts with the man's choice. So HE gets to pay for the abortion or support, RIGHT?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU
what about the couple who has a kid(both parties wanted a kid) then split up?

no child support?

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is right. Many people believe abortion is wrong. They are not having an abortion no matter what, it was never a choice.

Irrelevant to the OP.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
Keep it simple stupid. KISS. Men get to choose to/not-to (poor little weak men who cannot keep it in their pants is not an excuse)get a woman pregnant, a woman then has to choose to bear/abort the child. Clearly it all starts with the man's choice. So HE gets to pay for the abortion or support, RIGHT?

So then women are what, baby making machines? They have zero choice in the matter?

Excluding rape of course. And I don't know too many rapists coming back to support their kids.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: If you'd actually READ what I've written, you'd know I agree - AFTER the child is born and kept but using the premise presented of "choice" - my point stands and your post doesn't refute, address, or change that.

Let me explain it to you really simple since all you seem to care about is choice and fairness rather than choice, fairness, and the welfare of your own children.


This is how it works now:

Mom - Gets the long fairness stick
Dad - Gets the medium fairness stick, but is pretty close to the size of the long fairness stick because it is just way too easy to avoid paying child support and they also get to choose whether or not to have sex in the first place.
Child - Gets the shortest fairness stick compared to Mom and Dad by far.


This is how it would work if you got what you wanted:

Mom - Gets long fairness stick
Dad - Gets a fairness stick equal to the size of the Mom's stick, but is only longer than what they currently get now because Dad is a cold and greedy man who decided that the way to make things fair is to steal the Child's short fairness stick and add it to his own.
Child - No longer gets any stick at all.


I understand your argument about the unborn vs born child thing, but again, that has everything to do with fairness between Mom and Dad while completely leaving the child out of the picture. Of course, the only time you actually have a problem is the case where the child is born so we might as well assume that is going to happen when discussing fairness and choice. Our government looks at it that way and puts the kids first because they are innocent and you are not. Get the picture? You are an adult. You DO have control because you choose to have sex. Take control. Take responsibility. Part of taking responsibility is considering and accepting risks as well as their consequences. I mean, you are basically taking a risk and now asking for a legal bailout of your child support obligations. You realize that right?

Again you don't seem to have read what I've written(I'm starting to think you are purposely not reading it). The PREMISE is "CHOICE" which allows one side to have full control after conception and the other - none. THAT isn't "CHOICE" - that's onesideded "choice". Yes, obviously after a child is born and kept(2nd "choice" given only to mother but IMO "owed" due to carry/delivery) the "choice" no longer exists and both have to act in the best interest of the child regardless of their situation. However, since both have EQUAL responsibility up to and including conception -there should be "choice" provided to both IF we are going to be in a "choice" world.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Again you don't seem to have read what I've written(I'm starting to think you are purposely not reading it). The PREMISE is "CHOICE" which allows one side to have full control after conception and the other - none. THAT isn't "CHOICE" - that's onesideded "choice". Yes, obviously after a child is born and kept(2nd "choice" given only to mother but IMO "owed" due to carry/delivery) the "choice" no longer exists and both have to act in the best interest of the child regardless of their situation. However, since both have EQUAL responsibility up to and including conception -there should be "choice" provided to both IF we are going to be in a "choice" world.

I am reading every word, but there is always a chance that I simply do not understand what you are trying to say. Just to make sure we are on the same page, please clearly define what choice it is you want that you do not have. I am under the impression that what you want is the following. If it is wrong then please correct me.

You want a say in the choice of abortion which is something men currently do not have. If she doesn't want an abortion and you do then you want to no longer be legally and fiscally responsible for the child. You do not want to be required to pay child support. Is that correct?

If that is correct, then not only have I been reading every word of your posts but I also understand them fully and have responded as such. Also, if that is correct, I would like to know how you justify what you want as being fair to the child?

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Women control sex, women control their birth control, women control carrying to term or not. Frankly if a woman has a baby in this day and age how is it anyone's responsibility but hers?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

just because a man wants to have sex with doesn't mean he wants to have a baby with you.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Women control sex, women control their birth control, women control carrying to term or not. Frankly if a woman has a baby in this day and age how is it anyone's responsibility but hers?

yeah where exactly does the man have any choice. What if she didn't want the baby and he did? Tough luck dude.

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Men don't get a choice in a lot of situations.

Condoms do fail.
Getting snipped isn't 100% sure, as your body can repair it in some men
other forms of BC fail.

So even if the guy is being responsible, accidents do happen but the women get 100% of the choice as to what happens. That's not fair.

IMO it should be if one person wants the child, the birth should happen, and then the parent who wants the child has 100% of the responsibility and the other doesn't have to have any involvement in it.

Women don't have to be responsible with BC, because if they have a kid then they get money for the next 18 years from the dude.

Abstinence works 100% of the time. See issue resolved.

If you're not ready for the responsibility of being a parent, you're not ready to start having sex with someone. Birth control is never 100% and the future of some poor child shouldn't be on the line (either through abortion or a poor environment to grow up in) because you want to satisfy your urges without responsibility.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
just because a man wants to have sex with doesn't mean he wants to have a baby with you.

Consciously? Yeah, that might be the case. However, the urge to have sex with a person stems from biological imperative to reproduce. So indirectly it is. Just because the urge to have children isn't a conscious one doesn't give you a free pass on the responsibility and consequences of sex.