Is Bush's goal to suck California dry?

[MrPALCO]

<< Price Gouging is not an aspect of a &quot;Free Market&quot; >>



If you stop buying power, would the price come down?

Use the power of the purse and refuse to pay exhorbitant prices, running to government for price protection is not a solid long term solution.

 

[etech]

&quot;Tell me Corky,when the power supplies are manipulated as a result of Collusion by the Power Generators how can that be defined as a &quot;Free Market&quot;? If price caps are put into place it's only because the Power Generators Pricing Schmems will have been proven to be usuary and that they have broken the law and in turn have shown themselves as an entity that can't be trusted to obey the law. &quot;

u·su·ry (y¡¹zhe-r&ecirc noun
plural u·su·ries
1. The practice of lending money and charging the borrower interest, especially at an exorbitant or illegally high rate.
2. An excessive or illegally high rate of interest charged on borrowed money.
3. Archaic. Interest charged or paid on a loan.

I'm not sure how charging interst on a loan applies, but anyway.

The high prices that are referred to are on the unregulated spot market. I don't see where that is breaking a law.

The one possibility of collusion would be if they took plants off line to force energy to be bought on the spot market. That is under investigation and as far as I know so far there have been no charges filed.

 

[Red Dawn]

You are correct Etech, in my haste to post that reply I misused the word &quot;Usuary&quot; In fact I misused it earlier in this thread too. I should have known better as I was a Real Estate Agent and when getting my license we studied the practice of lending money and charging the borrower interest, especially at an exorbitant or illegally high rate.



<< The one possibility of collusion would be if they took plants off line to force energy to be bought on the spot market. That is under investigation and as far as I know so far there have been no charges filed. >>

That is what California is alleging.

What I don't understand is this tit for tat debate we are having. What concern is it of yours? You act as if you have some stake in this situation in California? The only way the crisis here can effect you is if there is a deep recession which spreads throughout the country occurs. So far the Consumers here in California are doing what's asked of them, even before any of the Price increases have been applied to our bills (So much for the argument that higher prices are needed to make us conserve)I dare say that I doubt that you in Oklahoma or anywhere else would conserve as effectively as we do here in California. Of course we have had ample practice at it through conserving water over the numerous drought we have endured in the past 30 years.

It seems more like a personal vendetta than anything else. I just hope that Bush and the RatpubliKan party isn't as small minded as some of you.

 

[etech]

&quot;I just hope that Bush and the RatpubliKan party isn't as small minded as some of you.&quot;

I have not and do not agree with the allegations that Bush and the &quot;ratpubliKans&quot; are responsible for California's woes. Many people have tried to best to put the blame on the current administration, even by misspelling Republicans and hoping they are not &quot;small minded&quot; there is some allegation involved.

I doubt that you in Oklahoma or anywhere else would conserve as effectively as we do here in California.
aww shuckens Red, Weuns wankers and knuckledragging brain farting toothless inbreds jest dunt nue nuthing aboot thet thar conseving steff. Gully, you californians are jest so smart and edeucacted I bet youns can due without eny of the electricity weuns produce out hear in inbred land.


California is alleging collusion, they have yet to prove any. Is that a case of blaming others for problems that the deregulation has caused, we will see.

BTW, I had answered your question in a previous post.
Red, &quot;Why would you even care?&quot; What is the title of this thread? I do not believe that is the case and also would rather be under a Republican administration then a democratic one. Since someone who has done no research might believe that false contention I responded.

 

[Kanly]

Data show Tulsa firm had Southern California plants curb output, boosting prices.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< California is alleging collusion, they have yet to prove any. Is that a case of blaming others for problems that the deregulation has caused, we will see. >>

OI for one am not blaming Bush for the problems caused by our misguided and ill advised plan of deregulation. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of Pete Wilson and the Republicans and Demoncrats in the California Legislature back when Pee Wee Pete was the Governor. When a state can't provide enough energy for it's needf on it's own deregualtion does not work. Deregualtion only works when a State can provide a surplus amount of energy on its own. At the time we had a 20% deficit in energy production.



<< aww shuckens Red, Weuns wankers and knuckledragging brain farting toothless inbreds jest dunt nue nuthing aboot thet thar conseving steff. Gully, you californians are jest so smart and edeucacted I bet youns can due without eny of the electricity weuns produce out hear in inbred land. >>

Well at least we agree on something.

 

[Moonbeam]

As regards proving collusion, the energy companies aren't stupid. They aren't going to hand a big brief case to the Att. Gen. labled how we fixed prices to gouge Californians. It will take years of intense legal investigation and whistle blowers to do it effectively in a court of law. In the mean time, that it happened is obvious. The state has never been short more than a few % of it's needs and yet the price went up thousands of times.

 

[MrPALCO]

California screwed up.

Give the &quot;greens&quot; boot and return to common sense.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Give the &quot;greens&quot; boot and return to common sense. >>

Amen Brother. In fact we are allowing Natural Gas burning power Plants to run at full capacity even though they don't mee enviromental regulations.

 

[glenn1]

<< Ahmen Brother. In fact we are allowing Natural Gas burning power Plants to run at full capacity even though they don't mee enviromental regulations. >>



Forgive my ignorance in this instance, but i thought that natural gas was a relatively clean burning fuel, esp. in regards to coal (which i had understood powers the larger commercial generating facilities, whereas natural gas burners were smaller units)? Or is it because pollution control devices are more readily available and or technically advanced/effective for coal burning facilities?

 

[MrPALCO]

<< In fact we are allowing Natural Gas burning power Plants to run at full capacity even though they don't mee enviromental regulations. >>



While I do not favor breaking the law, I do favor changing it to reflect common sense.

Build nuclear, it is the most efficient, if you will eliminate the politics from it.



ed..sp

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Forgive my ignorance in this instance, but i thought that natural gas was a relatively clean burning fuel, esp. in regards to coal (which i had understood powers the larger commercial generating facilities, whereas natural gas burners were smaller units)? Or is it because pollution control devices are more readily available and or technically advanced/effective for coal burning facilities? >>

Hey you know as much as I do



<< Build nuclear, it is the most efficient, if you will eliminate the politics from it. >>

Because of the Geological makeup of our State (Faults) I'm real hesitent to support that. If it weren't for the earthquakes then I would support it.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Because of the Geological makeup of our State (Faults) I'm real hesitent to support that. If it weren't for the earthquakes then I would support it. >>



Fair enough.

Why not locate far from the faults?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Why not locate far from the faults? >>

Where's that, Nevada? haha

 

[Moonbeam]

The fact that a single nuclear accident or terrorist attack can create a billion year hazard ought to eliminate it from contention among sane people. We cannot know the future, but we can be certain what the attitude towards those who would build new nuclear power plants would be if their vein promises and assurances of it's safety failed and created a major ecological catastrophe over some prized populated area like silicon valley, or where you live making the certain death of any man or animal that wandered there an inevitibility.

 

[MrPALCO]

New technology has made nuclear, safe.

Don't want it?

Then pay up the wazzoo for your electric.

 

[Tripleshot]

MrPALCO
Bud,there is no new technology that makes nuclear safe from terrorism, nor removal of spent bi-products. The possibility of meltdowns increases as you put more nuclear power plants on line, and a Chernobl desaster is just a matter of time.

I would be in strong favor of new technology as it applies to renewable resources, like sun,wind, and water. If California has to pay the piper for the mess they are in now,this is a golden oppurtunity for them to rise above it and be in the forefront by developing and implamenting new energy technology. There is a massive solar array outside Barstow, wind mills near Tahachapi, and an ocean that can provide all the wave action to generate electricity for the whole state and then some,not to mention de- salianation plants to provide for potable water.

If anything,California has always responded well to diversity. That cannot be said of most of the rest of the states. I wonder how much electricity Oklahoma exports? precious little if any. That state is a consumer state,as are many others,including Utah,where I live. The good thing is that the country as a whole is now looking seriously at the delapidated energy infrastructure,and hopefully the country as a whole will resolve this mess. Brownouts and blackouts are not unique to California. I can remember blackouts on the right coast as well,and in increase in birthrates claimed as a result of people stuck in elevators or left in the dark in there apartments so bored that sex was the only pleasurable diversion.

Happy Fathers Day, folks. I think I'll watch some golf now.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Then pay up the wazzoo for your electric. >>

 

[monckywrench]

Since power production fuels economic growth, a solution for the future might be to have massive tax incentive packages, free land from the state, and infrastructure improvements to attract enough conventional power plants to make CA an exporter of electricity. (Just locate the plants in the desert or other expendable area.) Californians would be energy independent, industry would expand, and all would be well.

 

[etech]

Tripleshot &quot;I wonder how much electricity Oklahoma exports? precious little if any. That state is a consumer state,as are many others,including Utah,where I live. &quot;

TS, once again your facts are wrong, aren't you getting tired of being wrong? Then again I guess it doesn't bother some people so maybe you aren't.

eia.doe.gov - Oklahoma
Capability (MW) 13,451 23
Generation (MWh) 56,190,603 23
Capability/person (KWe/person) 4.03 10
Generation/person (MWh/person) 16.83 19


Even Utah is an exporter of electricity.Utah

-----------------Value--- Rank
Capability (MW) 52,349 2
Generation (MWh) 188,757,867 4
Capability/person (KWe/person) 1.6 49
Generation/person (MWh/person) 5.78 50

1998 survey numbers, California was 50th in generation per person, 49th in capability per person.

TS, if you are referring to the Great Northeast Blackout of 1965 the two are completely unrelated. Do I need to explain it to you?

One last point, the type of nuclear plant at Chernobyl is different then those in the US. Chernobyl did not have the containment structures that US plants have. Dealing with the waste is the largest problem of nuclear power. To be scared of a Chernobyl type accident in the US is a fear of the uninformed.


Red,
<< aww shuckens Red, Weuns wankers and knuckledragging brain farting toothless inbreds jest dunt nue nuthing aboot thet thar conseving steff. Gully, you californians are jest so smart and edeucacted I bet youns can due without eny of the electricity weuns produce out hear in inbred land. >>

Well at least we agree on something.

Somehow I knew you would agree with your own words Red.

 

[Tripleshot]

etech
Yea right, bone head. Oklahoma imports the coal for generating electricity. Since you get most your coal from Utah,why don't we cut off your supply and see you sing a different tune?
I spent alot of time in Oklahoma friend. How many oil wells are capped in your state? What volume of natural gas are you pulling out of the ground and how much of that sustains your generation of power?

You are a very shallow minded,mypoic one tune player in this conversation and you bore me to tears with your insesent drivel supporting only right wing positions on politics,economy,environment foreign policy. Who picked you as the god of knowledge?

Happy fathers day,you terd.:disgust:

 

[etech]

Once again TS resorts to name calling, typical.


eia.doe.gov/
Production (Thousand Short Tons)
Week Ended Year-To-Date 52 Weeks Ended
06/09/2001 06/02/2001 06/10/2000 06/09/2001 06/09/2000 Percent Change 06/09/2001 06/10/2000 Percent Change
Oklahoma 37 46 27 892 752 18.7 1,726 1,679 2.8

I believe some of our coal is imported from Wyoming, low sulfur coal, better for the environment.

I also know that Oklahoma is not suffering from an electricity shortage this year. If you want the numbers for natural gas and capped oil wells look them up yourself.

TS &quot;Who picked you as the god of knowledge?&quot;
I don't know, who picked you as the god of misinformation?


BTW it's spelled turd, you can't even get your insults correct.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< If anything,Califrnia has always responded well to diversity. That cannot be said of most of the rest of the states. >>

That's because we are more experienced, from Droughts to Firestorms to Earthquakes. While I don't believe we are being made an example out of, we are an example of what can happen when Politicians are shortsighted. If others can learn from our mistakes then hopefully they wont have to deal with the inconveniences that we do. If something had to happen to a state it was best that it happened to us as we are by far the best prepared to deal with it because of our past experiences. That doesn't mean that we'd rather not, but if given a fair shake and not taken advantage of, we'll pull through iot and be stronger because of it.

A good example of how we respond to crisis is the Aftermath of the 89 Earthquake. After that disaster we retrofitted our infrastructure to withstand Earthquakes of a greater magnitude and changed building codes. We are doing the same thing as a result of this Enenrgy Crisis. When we are finished we'll be an example of what should be done, not what wasn't done like we are now.

Etech, your dislike of California is as obvious as the nose on your face. Face it buddy, even with this crisis we are going to be just fine.

<< 1998 survey numbers, California was 50th in generation per person, 49th in capability per person. >>

And we are now 50th in consumption . That's pretty impressive considering we are the 5th leading economy in the world! Where does Oklahoma rank Sooner boy?

 

[smartt]

Try living Florida, with a double-whammie! I like bush, but not sure about the Bushes.

 

[bobbysworld]

thats very true