Is arming Ukraine akin to waging war with Russia?

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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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I mean both had extant treaties with their European neighbors when Hitler invaded. The treaties were not honored; in fact, Hitler didn't even have to really invade Czechoslovakia, its nominal allies gave it away.

This is WHY Poland has such a strong military, the strongest it can afford. Poles have long memories.

Poland is also willing to do what others will not:
http://www.newsweek.com/we-gave-americans-blow-job-got-nothing-says-polish-foreign-minister-255863

Didn't work out that time for them, but major props for trying!

All kidding aside, Eastern European countries are rightfully worried about Russia, because we all know NATO is only going to try more economic sanctions, I see no war erupting when Russia creeps further westward. The best hope is for Russians to wise up and see past the propaganda. I'm not betting on it, though.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,259
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As someone who has studied history for my whole life this is not exactly a fundamentally sound understanding of world history and world studies. The military-industrial-congressional-intelligence complex is only a symptom not a cause of corruption in America. Although it does act like dominos towards increasing corruption in the rest of American society. And Britain did not step back from their Imperialism on their own the World Wars more or less did that for them. Also Rome did not fall until 1453 and they were culturally advanced and politically and militarily powerful until then. Also there are more than a few empires who did last for a very long time and when you look at China for example they are basically successive dynasties of Imperialism until the 20th century.

Well, I wasn't positing a journal-caliber comment, simply breaking it down.

The MIC arose and now ensures its own survival. You see this when it places requisite factories in almost every single Congressional district. Cut the MIC budget, you're cutting jobs. Can't do that. Continue doling out that $1T a year, while cutting back on infrastructure, education, and programs to help the rabble. Great recipe.

Britain stepped back, more or less, after WWII. Roosevelt made it a condition that we would help them, but that we weren't going to support their Empire. Which is why they gave their remaining pieces up peacefully, more or less, in the 40s and 50s.. Not to mention that Britain also gave Canada, Australia, India, etc. their mostly-independence before then.

Rome proper fell in the 5th century. It was cobbled together a couple of times here and there afterwards, most completely by Justinian, but it was never the same, and the Byzantine Empire for the last 700 years was Turkey and Greece/Macedonia, which is why there is still so much tension as of today (as if there weren't constant Turk/Greek tension beforehand). They spoke Greek. And again, what happened to that Empire? Where is Constantinople?

My point is that Empires always fall, because they have to hollow out their core to pay for their expansion. Which is the present-day US. They can do so gracefully or painfully. Britain did so, not 100% voluntarily at first, gracefully. Rome proper was conquered, split, was reconquered by various groups, split, and finally the wealthier half of it survived...for a little while longer.

That is akin to the East and West Coasts remaining a solid economic/military power while the much poorer hinterlands is fragmented and treated as simply a zone of influence by the coasts.

Which I would argue, is already happening. Because that is how Empires function. They make the people at the top immensely rich and powerful, and it comes at both an external and internal price. Depending on how much external and internal wealth remains to be taken determines how much longer Empire proper lasts before splintering and fragmentation happens.

I just assume stop the process that usually occurs and step back and actually build our country, while letting the rest of the world kill each other if need be. We'll continue to have intelligence, spy satellites, flying death robots, and thousands of ICBMs. Let's dump money back into our own country for a change.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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My point is that Empires always fall, because they have to hollow out their core to pay for their expansion.

Governments eventually fall. Whether Imperial or Democracy no government has survived for 2000 years that I know of currently. So portraying empires as distinct is not the most accurate. Civilizations are about the only thing that has survived without falling yet and the various civilizations in the world are merging into one world civilization. You have some valid concerns and thoughts I just think the world is not so simplified and idealistic. Analyzing history one of the few constants that goes with cultural survival is powerful security and defense. This is why dramatically decentralizing America and curtailing basically all the power of the federal government would only lead to the downfall of America despite the huge rapport from Libertarians and other political idealists. Also empires do not have to destroy their core for expansion as Rome was still powerful and it was only societal corruption and some incompetent emperors that led to the fall of Rome. This does not mean that I think America is right to maintain our Imperial neocolonialism or that I support the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Intelligence complex but that I think from a logical consideration there is a lot to put together.
 

Blanky

Platinum Member
Oct 18, 2014
2,457
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"Defensive" weapons are basically not a real thing. Other than fixed artillery that cannot fire past your borders there are damn few examples of a weapon that is only defensive in nature.

Yes, I think it's akin to waging war with Russia, although there are many points along the scale of war, and it wouldn't be the first time the US has waged a proxy war.

I'm not terribly interested in getting into a shooting war with Russia and don't want to see a mushroom cloud on Ukraine's behalf. I think NATO should beef up all its eastern members to further assert the message to Russia that NATO territories are unequivocally off-limits.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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They are basically in an open conflict with Russia at this point. And they are holding their own.

I don't have a problem with the US sending them what they are asking for.

Hogwash. The West uses Ukraine as a pawn. Putin uses the rebels as a foil. Russia has not brought more than a tiny fraction of their military might to bear against Ukraine. Nor is it remotely necessary, considering that Ukraine is an economic basket case soon to default on their ever growing debt & a sociological morass thanks to the rise of western Ukrainian primitivists. It's a country divided against itself, a country that never should have had its current borders. What functioned as a convenient administrative zone as part of the USSR has become a disaster left to their own devices.

But, hey, there's nothing wrong that more blood won't solve completely, right?

More guns! More posturing! More popcorn so we can watch from the comfort of our living rooms! Watch in rapture as the Great Game goes on!
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
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Hogwash. The West uses Ukraine as a pawn. Putin uses the rebels as a foil. Russia has not brought more than a tiny fraction of their military might to bear against Ukraine. Nor is it remotely necessary, considering that Ukraine is an economic basket case soon to default on their ever growing debt & a sociological morass thanks to the rise of western Ukrainian primitivists. It's a country divided against itself, a country that never should have had its current borders. What functioned as a convenient administrative zone as part of the USSR has become a disaster left to their own devices.

But, hey, there's nothing wrong that more blood won't solve completely, right?

More guns! More posturing! More popcorn so we can watch from the comfort of our living rooms! Watch in rapture as the Great Game goes on!

Putin is great at this sort of thing, how he's maintained control so long.

Dubya admires him for it I imagine, and probably jealous he couldn't have maintained control in the ways Putin has.

His terms run out, he just changes jobs and remains legit and in control of things, he handles the political manipulation in Russia like the old pros when it was the Soviet Union used to.

The guy is great at misdirection and poking his fingers into things all over.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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Why even pretend anymore? Why pretend that it's the rebels running this war? Are there really even rebels? The first 'rebel' leader was actually Russian through and through. This is Russia's war against Ukraine for Ukraine having the temerity for wanting to decide it's future for itself. Russia had done this with Georgia, Moldova, Azerbaijan, and, a few months ago, threatening Kazakhstan, a strong Russian ally, by speculating that Kazakhstan was not really a country. Russia also started military drills bordering that vast country. Why? Because Russia's cosmodrome is in that country.

So, let's not beat around the bush and call a spade a spade. We did nothing for Georgia and Putin saw that as a green light to attack others. Kick Russia out of SWIFT and arm the Ukrainians.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Kick Russia out of SWIFT and arm the Ukrainians.

Yeh, encourage the gallant fools to reduce their own country to rubble, sacrifice themselves in our interests. Put 'em deeper in debt at the same time, of course, given that their financial situation is already hopeless. That way, the world's bankers can claim the war ruined investors rather than their own depredations.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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Yeh, encourage the gallant fools to reduce their own country to rubble, sacrifice themselves in our interests. Put 'em deeper in debt at the same time, of course, given that their financial situation is already hopeless. That way, the world's bankers can claim the war ruined investors rather than their own depredations.

Or, they can return to the arms of the Russians where they get oil subsidies and billions in Russian aid. The cost? Unbridled corruption and enslavement to Moscow. Which path would you choose, slavery or independence?
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Don't we have a lot of Iraq war equipment sitting in deserts somewhere? Why not ship it to Ukraine for "recycling?" Better than giving it to our cops :)
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
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Don't we have a lot of Iraq war equipment sitting in deserts somewhere? Why not ship it to Ukraine for "recycling?"

Was thinking about that. Especially the old anti-tank weapons we used to have that we replaced with the Javelin ATGM and the SRAW. The AT4 and LAW come to mind as good weapons we have tons of stock we can ship over there for basically free.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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Or, they can return to the arms of the Russians where they get oil subsidies and billions in Russian aid. The cost? Unbridled corruption and enslavement to Moscow. Which path would you choose, slavery or independence?

Yada, yada, yada. It's easy to characterize, isn't it? To posture? Right there from the comfort of your own keyboard, of course, knowing full well that the violence will never reach you.

You speak of corruption? What's more corrupt than loaning people money & giving them guns to wage war that they can't win? Whose geopolitical interests are served- theirs, or merely our own?
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
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Didn't work out that time for them, but major props for trying!

Like I may have said earlier but something I have thought for a long time now is that if they thought that Britain and Francais were honorless betraying bastards then why are they going right to the waspnest?
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
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Yada, yada, yada. It's easy to characterize, isn't it? To posture? Right there from the comfort of your own keyboard, of course, knowing full well that the violence will never reach you.

They want this fight and not you so they have the right to ask for political, intellectual, informational, and material assistance.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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Hogwash. The West uses Ukraine as a pawn. Putin uses the rebels as a foil. Russia has not brought more than a tiny fraction of their military might to bear against Ukraine. Nor is it remotely necessary, considering that Ukraine is an economic basket case soon to default on their ever growing debt & a sociological morass thanks to the rise of western Ukrainian primitivists. It's a country divided against itself, a country that never should have had its current borders. What functioned as a convenient administrative zone as part of the USSR has become a disaster left to their own devices.

But, hey, there's nothing wrong that more blood won't solve completely, right?

More guns! More posturing! More popcorn so we can watch from the comfort of our living rooms! Watch in rapture as the Great Game goes on!

Hope that contract to supply lubricants to the Ukrainians is a rich one.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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Yada, yada, yada. It's easy to characterize, isn't it? To posture? Right there from the comfort of your own keyboard, of course, knowing full well that the violence will never reach you.

He writes as he hands the Ukrainians over to Putin's tender mercies.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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He writes as he hands the Ukrainians over to Putin's tender mercies.

Heh. What part of *Failed State* do you not comprehend? It's not like Russia forced the Kiev govt to fail- The Ukrainians did that themselves. It only took them 20 years, with a little help from Western financiers & meddlers. Hell, you can't run a corrupt govt without willing bankers.

Putin saw that as a threat to Russia's interests & an opportunity to act wrt Crimea & more. America has done much the same in the past- TR took the isthmus from Colombia. Reagan forced the Sandinistas to relinquish power. Need I go on?

The only thing propping up the Kiev govt is "loans" from the West. They're just our thumb in Putin's eye, paid to be there, now paid to shed blood to serve our ends.

They can't even pay the interest in their present state, let alone pay for war, so the answer must be to... Give them guns! Yeh, that's it!

Shee-it, Sherlock. Figure it out. It's too late for Kiev to assert authority over the rebellious parts of Eastern Ukraine, certainly not w/o wounding their own society worse than it already is. They'll just bleed themselves dry trying, maybe force massive population migrations of ethnic Ukrainians & Russians. Yeh, sure, the nationalist radicals in western Ukraine get the cultural purity they seek, just in a lot smaller & much, much poorer country.

That's obvious, and it's apparently what our own govt wants- their sacrifice, in blood.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
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Are you considering Ukraine a failed stated based on the guy they kicked out a year and a half ago? Seems to me like the new guys in charge have had to deal with the rebellion since the start. That's not entirely a fair assessment.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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Russia invaded Ukraine.
It's now backing the indiscriminate shelling of cities.

At some point the west must wage war - IN RETURN.

More blood! Let's shed some of our own!

As near as I can tell, it's the Ukrainian govt doing the indiscriminate shelling in Donetsk.

Not that you care, propaganda victim that you are.

Some people seem to be able to make sense-

Angela Merkel said: 'The problem is that I cannot imagine any situation in which improved equipment for the Ukrainian army leads to President Putin being so impressed that he believes he will lose militarily.'

For anybody not overly impressed with their own chest thumping, that a no-fucking-brainer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pean-leaders-efforts-peace-deal-continue.html
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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Are you considering Ukraine a failed stated based on the guy they kicked out a year and a half ago? Seems to me like the new guys in charge have had to deal with the rebellion since the start. That's not entirely a fair assessment.

The Ukrainian govt has been plagued by corruption & ineptitude since independence, the economy systematically looted for 20 years. The new govt needs to cut their losses, wean themselves from the ultra nationalists who serve as muscle, get on with the task of making Ukraine a better place to live for all inhabitants.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
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The Ukrainian govt has been plagued by corruption & ineptitude since independence, the economy systematically looted for 20 years. The new govt needs to cut their losses, wean themselves from the ultra nationalists who serve as muscle, get on with the task of making Ukraine a better place to live for all inhabitants.

And how would they do that, by bowing to Moscow? You don't really seem to have any good ideas other than bashing those of others. Ukraine was corrupt because it was politically and economically aligned with Russia, which is deeply corrupt. The Ukrainians are trying to rid themselves of that corruption but it's something that may take decades and they will need Western help to get there. By the way, western Ukraine was once part of the Austrio-Hungary empire. That is why the western half is pro-Western. The eastern part was part of the Russian empire. Today, it is one country. If Ukraine decides to choose a path, don't you think the EU model is better than the Russian one?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,246
55,794
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More blood! Let's shed some of our own!

As near as I can tell, it's the Ukrainian govt doing the indiscriminate shelling in Donetsk.

Not that you care, propaganda victim that you are.

Some people seem to be able to make sense-

For anybody not overly impressed with their own chest thumping, that a no-fucking-brainer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pean-leaders-efforts-peace-deal-continue.html

Arming Ukraine isn't about beating Russia, it's about further raising the costs to Russia.

Russia has engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a neighboring nation. You don't let that stand if you want other nations that neighbor Russia to take your security commitments seriously.

Not to mention that this actually represents a good opportunity for us. We can expand NATO, we can create new economic ties with Russian client states, etc, all while weakening Russia economically and militarily. Putin made a mistake by overreaching in his invasion and now we can make him pay. I hope we do.