Is arming Ukraine akin to waging war with Russia?

[piasabird]

Russia supplies weapons to Syria all the time. Russia gives weapons to Russian terrorists and then claim it is not their Army doing the invading. Russia is a terrorist nation. Don't kid yourself. Give them all the weapons they want and tell Russia if they play around we will give them 20 nuke missle launchers with the nukes. 2 can play at this nuke game.

 

[blastingcap]

The Netherlands should send a brigade over after what happened to the Malaysian Airlines flight shot down by Russians using Russia equipment.

 

[piasabird]

Russia is right now helping North Korea to develop and test anti-ship cruise missiles. They are all designed exactly like their Russian counterparts. This is already provocation enough to supply the rebels with heavy weapons, stinger missiles Light anti-tank weapons (LAW) supplies for IED's, and Satelite Phones.

 

[Jhhnn]

Arming Ukraine isn't about beating Russia, it's about further raising the costs to Russia.

Russia has engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a neighboring nation. You don't let that stand if you want other nations that neighbor Russia to take your security commitments seriously.

Not to mention that this actually represents a good opportunity for us. We can expand NATO, we can create new economic ties with Russian client states, etc, all while weakening Russia economically and militarily. Putin made a mistake by overreaching in his invasion and now we can make him pay. I hope we do.

Astoundingly well indoctrinated in the ways of Neocon foreign policy.

Raising the cost to Russia? See Merkel's comments, above. What about the cost to Ukraine? Are they there to bleed for us?

Russia's actions are not unprovoked. It seems obvious that Ukrainian overtures to NATO were the provocation along with a lot of anti-Russian raving from Ukrainian Nationalists who have arrived too close to power for Russian comfort or the comfort of ethnic/linguistic Russian Ukrainians. It would deprive Russia of their strategic Black Sea Base. At best, Sevastopol would become the equivalent of Gitmo, which is to say useless as a military asset.

The reasons for upheaval in Ukraine are mostly economic- interest payments, mostly to the West, cripple development. It's like Greece, except with ethnic division. Resurgent ultra nationalism among western Ukrainians does nothing to make ethnic Russians in the east really want to remain Ukrainian. Among them, only the separatists have shown willingness to fight, with many becoming refugees in Russia. Imagine that.

Putin hasn't overreached- It was NATO & the EU who did that, playing Ukraine as a pawn in an extension of the Cold War you seem to think was and still is a good idea. When this is all said and done, the folly of that will be obvious, particularly for Ukraine.

Putin can maintain the status quo at will, expand it if he desires, and there's not a fucking thing the West can do about it other than whine, see if the Ukrainians are willing to sacrifice themselves on the altar of NATO ambitions. They may just be that stupid.

The Kiev govt needs to quit listening to their western "friends", cut their losses, even if it means ceding further territory. Or they can shed a lot of blood to end up likely worse. They can't escalate to win at war, but maybe they can win at peace if they set their minds to it.

 

[Darwin333]

I know part of the source of the trouble is that Russia got easy access to the resources of these eastern European countries when they were part of the Soviet Union and afterward when 'friendlies' like Yanukovych ran Ukraine. The EU with our and popular support elected a 'western friendly' PM who presumably will reduce Putin's influence and possibly his easy access to Ukraine's resources. Doing this to a man like Putin is bound to have repercussions.

I'm for using diplomacy alone, but our government is threatening the use of 'defensive weapons' like anti-tank rockets (which could never be used offensively ). My other problem with arming the enemy of our enemy is that those weapons can end up in the hands of our direct foe, and used against us if we enter the fray (like in Iraq).

Also would arming Kiev put us at war with Russia?

No, we've engaged in "war by proxy" with Russia at least a few times in the last few decades, one of them being Afghanistan ironically enough.

 

[Darwin333]

Azeribajan and Iran might make up for the difference.

Is the infrastructure in place to do that? He is talking nat. gas not petrol.

 

[blastingcap]

Ceding Crimea to Putin. Appeasement like ceding Czechoslovakia to Hitler, or different? Discuss.

 

[bradly1101]

No, we've engaged in "war by proxy" with Russia at least a few times in the last few decades, one of them being Afghanistan ironically enough.

Yes but this is on their own border. I think that raises the stakes.

 

[bradly1101]

Ceding Crimea to Putin. Appeasement like ceding Czechoslovakia to Hitler, or different? Discuss.

We didn't have the fearlessness to intervene. The risks seemed too great.

 

[norseamd]

Is the infrastructure in place to do that? He is talking nat. gas not petrol.

Possibly. Would require the Turks to play nice with us and let us pipe the gas through them otherwise we would have to build a pipeline from Georgia to Bulgaria or Romania through the Black Sea which would not be cheap or quick which means we need something else to support us until such shit was made.

 

[norseamd]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/24/eu-iran-gas-idUSL6N0RG2NG20140924

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/12/turkey-russia-natural-gas-blue-stream-tanap.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/iran-says-ready-to-supply-natural-gas-to-europe-/25386226.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Pipeline

 

[Jaskalas]

Astoundingly well indoctrinated in the ways of Neocon foreign policy.

Neocon is the tyranny to reshape the world in our image.

This is us protecting Europe via a long history of defense pacts and assurances that we would not tolerate a Russian invasion. You would only fail to discern the difference if you were Russian allied.

Your effort in telling us how "bad" it is to defend Kiev is notable, but not favorable in the least. I agree with eskimospy for once, we need to provide resistance and raise the costs of further aggression. Europe needs a Khazad Dum moment where the WORLD tells Russia "You shall not pass".

You would have us cower towards the bear - when we need to raise a shotgun. The world stage is not a game for the weak. You will find security through strength, and strength through brinkmanship. We must set consequences for attacking "us" or there will never be peace.

 

[Sulaco]

Astoundingly well indoctrinated in the ways of Neocon foreign policy.

Raising the cost to Russia? See Merkel's comments, above. What about the cost to Ukraine? Are they there to bleed for us?

Russia's actions are not unprovoked. It seems obvious that Ukrainian overtures to NATO were the provocation along with a lot of anti-Russian raving from Ukrainian Nationalists who have arrived too close to power for Russian comfort or the comfort of ethnic/linguistic Russian Ukrainians. It would deprive Russia of their strategic Black Sea Base. At best, Sevastopol would become the equivalent of Gitmo, which is to say useless as a military asset.

The reasons for upheaval in Ukraine are mostly economic- interest payments, mostly to the West, cripple development. It's like Greece, except with ethnic division. Resurgent ultra nationalism among western Ukrainians does nothing to make ethnic Russians in the east really want to remain Ukrainian. Among them, only the separatists have shown willingness to fight, with many becoming refugees in Russia. Imagine that.

Putin hasn't overreached- It was NATO & the EU who did that, playing Ukraine as a pawn in an extension of the Cold War you seem to think was and still is a good idea. When this is all said and done, the folly of that will be obvious, particularly for Ukraine.

Putin can maintain the status quo at will, expand it if he desires, and there's not a fucking thing the West can do about it other than whine, see if the Ukrainians are willing to sacrifice themselves on the altar of NATO ambitions. They may just be that stupid.

The Kiev govt needs to quit listening to their western "friends", cut their losses, even if it means ceding further territory. Or they can shed a lot of blood to end up likely worse. They can't escalate to win at war, but maybe they can win at peace if they set their minds to it.

Yeah, that's eskimospy. Ever the neocon.

Your hard-on for Putin, defeatism, and Russia's blatant aggression is quite pathetic.
But it falls nicely in line with the other drivel you've posted here.

 

[Jhhnn]

Neocon is the tyranny to reshape the world in our image.

This is us protecting Europe via a long history of defense pacts and assurances that we would not tolerate a Russian invasion. You would only fail to discern the difference if you were Russian allied.

Your effort in telling us how "bad" it is to defend Kiev is notable, but not favorable in the least. I agree with eskimospy for once, we need to provide resistance and raise the costs of further aggression. Europe needs a Khazad Dum moment where the WORLD tells Russia "You shall not pass".

You would have us cower towards the bear - when we need to raise a shotgun. The world stage is not a game for the weak. You will find security through strength, and strength through brinkmanship. We must set consequences for attacking "us" or there will never be peace.

Standard chest thumping.

Obviously, we have no defense pact with Ukraine, do we?

And, uhh, who is this "we" providing resistance? Whose lives & families? To defend an alliance that doesn't exist? Or are we just trying to get the Ukrainians to act as cannon fodder?

Consequences? More like the consequences to Ukraine of playing into the West's chicanery.

They seem to be having trouble figuring out that they've been set up as the patsy.

 

[Jaskalas]

Obviously, we have no defense pact with Ukraine, do we?

Are you choosing to ignore this?
Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996

And, uhh, who is this "we" providing resistance?

NATO, if it wishes to remain in existence.
Others, if they wish to side with us.

Whose lives & families? To defend an alliance that doesn't exist? Or are we just trying to get the Ukrainians to act as cannon fodder?

Consequences? More like the consequences to Ukraine of playing into the West's chicanery.

They seem to be having trouble figuring out that they've been set up as the patsy.

I'm seeing solid Russian propaganda here. As if Ukraine should be invaded.
You probably think it's for their own good to be attacked?

 

[StinkyPinky]

More blood! Let's shed some of our own!

As near as I can tell, it's the Ukrainian govt doing the indiscriminate shelling in Donetsk.

Not that you care, propaganda victim that you are.

Some people seem to be able to make sense-



For anybody not overly impressed with their own chest thumping, that a no-fucking-brainer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...pean-leaders-efforts-peace-deal-continue.html

You only have to look at the comments on the article to know the west has lost its balls.

 

[Bock]

I really hope Russia doesn't flat out invade Ukraine,
I also really hope if that does happen, the U.S. doesn't get into a shooting war with Russia
I'm not going to be drafted for a war with russia. No way in hell will I join that fight.

 

[Jhhnn]

Are you choosing to ignore this?
Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances


NATO, if it wishes to remain in existence.
Others, if they wish to side with us.



I'm seeing solid Russian propaganda here. As if Ukraine should be invaded.
You probably think it's for their own good to be attacked?

Remarkably selective comprehension skills. From your link-

In the U.S. neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to give a military commitment to Ukraine, nor did they believe the U.S. Senate would ratify an international treaty, so the memorandum was agreed as a political agreement.[16]

Not to mention the unseemly mock piety from our own govt- We invaded Grenada, waged proxy war against the Sandinistas, invaded Panama, Invaded Iraq twice & still have troops in Afghanistan after invading over a decade ago. There are also the small matters of bombing Serbia into submission, Libya & our proxy war in Syria, but, uhh, never mind all of that, huh?

Did we really think that Russia would tolerate the transformation of Ukraine, historically part of Russia, into our client state as part of NATO?

Apparently so. We gambled, and lost, now encourage Ukraine to double down on the stupidity of having believed our bullshit.

 

[fskimospy]

Remarkably selective comprehension skills. From your link-

Not to mention the unseemly mock piety from our own govt- We invaded Grenada, waged proxy war against the Sandinistas, invaded Panama, Invaded Iraq twice & still have troops in Afghanistan after invading over a decade ago. There are also the small matters of bombing Serbia into submission, Libya & our proxy war in Syria, but, uhh, never mind all of that, huh?

Did we really think that Russia would tolerate the transformation of Ukraine, historically part of Russia, into our client state as part of NATO?

Apparently so. We gambled, and lost, now encourage Ukraine to double down on the stupidity of having believed our bullshit.

You're back to the 'two wrongs make a right' argument. Also, this cheerleading for Russia is pretty weird.

Russia has repeatedly invaded its neighbors in recent years and is continuing its pattern of aggression in Ukraine. Stopping Russian aggression is valuable not just in and of itself, but it helps our other security arrangements in Eastern Europe. Since Russia has pretty much come out as hostile to our interests, weakening Russia in general is a good thing for us as well.

Putin is the one who has gambled and lost. His economy is in free fall, he has lost his international influence, and now he's scrambling. He thought being cut off from credit markets wouldn't matter as oil would stay high. Turns out he made a bad bet. Iimagine as his situation worsens he will become more aggressive in the short term as he tries to bully his way out of this mistake, but long term Russia will take a valuable lesson from this.

 

[brandonb]

Some are saying a tactical nuke was launched on Donetsk (rebel stronghold) today.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a2_1423433645

----

Can anybody translate this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8LddnSoDvc

This is video of the detonation site, so I am curious what they are saying as far as evidence is concerned.

Most Ukraine videos on liveleak actually make Ukraine look really bad, and make the rebels look like the moderates. But propaganda is propaganda.

My opinion is that we need to stay out of this. Anybody who says anything about Russian aggression is an idiot. How aggressive has the United States been over the last 30 years? We are involved in almost every conflict.

 

[fskimospy]

Some are saying a tactical nuke was launched on Donetsk (rebel stronghold) today.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9a2_1423433645

----

Can anybody translate this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8LddnSoDvc

This is video is inspection of the site of the detonation, so I am curious what they are saying as far as evidence is concerned.

Most Ukraine videos on liveleak actually make Ukraine look really bad, and make the rebels look like the moderates. But propaganda is propaganda.

My opinion is that we need to stay out of this. Anybody who says anything about Russian aggression is an idiot. How aggressive has the United States been over the last 30 years? We are involved in almost every conflict.

Two wrongs make a right argument... again. My opinion is that this is naked aggression and that unlike previous Russian attacks on their neighbors they need to see that they will pay a price for it.

As for a tactical nuclear weapon being used, that seems extremely unlikely for a number of reasons. (neither Ukraine or the rebels have nuclear weapons, for one) If it is true though, that means Russia has engaged in a nuclear attack on a neighboring country. Whatever the response to that would be, it needs to be massive.

 

[bshole]

As for a tactical nuclear weapon being used, that seems extremely unlikely for a number of reasons. (neither Ukraine or the rebels have nuclear weapons, for one) If it is true though, that means Russia has engaged in a nuclear attack on a neighboring country. Whatever the response to that would be, it needs to be massive.

Um.... no.... just no. Let European kids die over this, not American. Their mess, not ours. Not worth a single American life, not one.

 

[norseamd]

Um.... no.... just no. Let European kids die over this, not American. Their mess, not ours. Not worth a single American life, not one.

Not surprising that out of the rest of AT to agree with Jhhnn you are the one. Let me give you a hint if no one was to respond to Muscovite use of nuclear weapons what would prevent them from seizing on the political weakness and seize more and more land and use more and more nuclear weapons since no country steps in to stop that shit and fight them.

 

[brandonb]

Well here is another video saying the explosion was at a Rebel arms factory.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b14_1423494001

Yet the video above I posted showed no factory and it looked like a forest with a big hole in the middle.

So again. The propaganda is really hard to digest in this conflict. I, as an American, can't tell what is going on as everything conflicts.

If I had to guess, using logic: Why would rebels have an arms factory? To produce shells? Tanks? We know that's not the case since the rebels are using Russian equipment. Why would this factory be in the middle of an area which is being bombarded with artillery daily? That doesn't make sense either.

Nothing adds up.

 

[norseamd]

As for a tactical nuclear weapon being used, that seems extremely unlikely for a number of reasons.

Agree with this. But I have not read about this incident yet.