Is AGP dead?

[sodcha0s]

they are still putting PCI on every new motherboard, including teh Asus A8N SLI.. theres at least a purpose to their existence still. But PCIE completely overshadows AGP, and generally is not even on the boards unless its a hack job.

I disagree here. I think you will see AGP on a lot of motherboards for quite some time. Makes for an easier upgrade path, otherwise everyone would have to buy a new mobo and vid card at the same time. For example, I just upgraded to the Neo2 and AMD64. I won't upgrade these components again for probably 2 years, however I may upgrade my 9800pro before then. Say I get a 6800 ultra (agp obviously) in 6 months to a year, well when I'm ready to upgrade cpu/mobo again I will want it to have pcie for sure, but I also want that agp slot so I can use my existing card. And even though pcie is newer bigger faster, there still won't be any speed difference as far as gaming is concerned. It took years to see an improvement in agp over pci.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: sodcha0s

they are still putting PCI on every new motherboard, including teh Asus A8N SLI.. theres at least a purpose to their existence still. But PCIE completely overshadows AGP, and generally is not even on the boards unless its a hack job.

I disagree here. I think you will see AGP on a lot of motherboards for quite some time. Makes for an easier upgrade path, otherwise everyone would have to buy a new mobo and vid card at the same time. For example, I just upgraded to the Neo2 and AMD64. I won't upgrade these components again for probably 2 years, however I may upgrade my 9800pro before then. Say I get a 6800 ultra (agp obviously) in 6 months to a year, well when I'm ready to upgrade cpu/mobo again I will want it to have pcie for sure, but I also want that agp slot so I can use my existing card. And even though pcie is newer bigger faster, there still won't be any speed difference as far as gaming is concerned. It took years to see an improvement in agp over pci.

you already cant find agp on a NF4

 

[shinotenshi]

AGP won't be on any new motheboards. intel has ceased production. ATi is pci-e only and the nf4 and future nvidia chipsets are pci-e. AGP is DEAD. it will be used only for low end coperate, e-machines. Bringing over never chipsets just means more cost(see ATI's bridge chip). the majority of the money made by ati,intel,amd and nvidia is in OEM, and the like, not the retail market. In other words there is economcially significit to be gained by either nvidia or ati to provide newer chipsets for AGP. there is nothing to be gained for motherboard makers to make high-end AGP boards in mass, becuase the major vendors who would want AGP will want low cost not high performance. AGP is finished, the way pci is finished in the retail martket. it has nothing to do with performance, i will say it again, its about how the computer market works and the power intel has in directing certain aspect of that market.

 

[CaiNaM]

lack of production does not make something obsolete; lack of usefulness does. agp will be quite useful for some time to come.

 

[shinotenshi]

"lack of production does not make something obsolete; lack of usefulness does. agp will be quite useful for some time to come".

This statement makes no sense. P2's and P3's are obsolete because intel no longer makes them. silver

electric wire is far "useful" than copper, but no one produces it because its too expensive. somthing

cannot be useful if its not produce, they are alot of things in this world that have great uses but due to

cost aren't used because they cost too much to produce, because a profit cannot be made of thier

production. AGP is nearing this zone, where it will not be in either ATI,NVIida or Motherboard makers

invest resources into a thing which cannot return its investment. contrary to what you belive, ATI and

Nvidia don't need to keep you happy, they need to keep thier OEM constumers happy, a fact that seems

lost on many people as long they get enough pci-e cards to thier oem customers they will be fine. ATI

made record revenues this quarter though, they had no new AGP cards or because of supposed paper

launch. once again to ATI and NVidia and LARGE motherboard makers, only the OEM's are who really

matter. The retail market is like icing on top of the OEM market. OEM's want PCI-E, in all likely hood there

is far more money to made in just selling old AGP chipsets, then selling only new retail PCI-E chipets in

both OEM and Retail (allows for both markets to cover the single development of a PCI-E), as oppose to

having to sell new PCI-E to oems and retailers and new AGP chipsets in small retail market(requires

massive investment in designing and producing bridge chips, that can't be written off in the intial

development and have to be covered by only the AGP retail market to make the profit, as its likey OEM

sales won't cover it, since they will most likey be happy with geforce4 and r300's at this price point (agp))

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: shinotenshi
"lack of production does not make something obsolete; lack of usefulness does. agp will be quite useful for some time to come".

This statement makes no sense.

it makes complete sense, and far more eloquently than the myriad of words used in all your double-spaced sentences

ob·so·lete: No longer in use

it's not that difficult to comprehend (or at least it shouldn't be). while one could argue something may be 'obsolete' to some people or from a specific point of view, the simple fact is pci-e offers no advantages (at least at this time, nor in the near future) which would render the agp specification useless, or 'obsolete'.

you'll also most certainly be able to purchase hardware using the agp standard for some time to come, regardless of production volumes (or lack thereof).

 

[nitromullet]

Do the math...

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=14-130-203&depa=0

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=13-130-468&depa=0

$388.00 6800GT AGP
$148.00 MSI "K8N Neo2 Platinum"

$536.00 Total

or

http://www.newegg.com/app/view...=14-150-081&depa=0

$495.50 6800GT PCIe

...you get the 6800 GT and MSI mobo for about $40 more than just the PCIe card (and this is one of the more expensive nForce3 mobos out there)....

Whether or not AGP is "dead" or not, it simply doesn't make sense when you can get the AGP motherboard next to nothing for the price of the PCIe card... I tried to do the same example for the Ultra, where PCIe would fair even worse, but I couldn't actually find one for sale from a reputable vendor. Just replace the mobo with one that is PCIe capable when you upgrade the video card. Sure, you won't have the bragging rights, but you also won't have the first board revision problems either. You spend less and you get stability plus great perfromance.

 

[housecat]

too bad that 6800gt isnt in stock.

honestly i dont think theres many problems with the A8N SLI boards at all. i was talking to a senior writer at hardOCP im friends with and he said its awesome.. highly recommended.

i think thats a poor comparison though, if you are giong to compare out of stock items to instock items like that AGP 6800GT.. at least pick an out of stock item that doesnt sway the balance in favor of the AGP so drastically.

$399 chumbo.com BFG 6800GT PCIE (you've all seen this one)
$130 chaintech nf4 http://www.newegg.com/app/view...=13-152-049&depa=0

= $529 Total


While its alot easier to find a AGP 3800GT for $388 than it is that Chumbo deal... I found your comparison a little disengenous.. and wanted to shine some light on how economical a PCIE rig can be.
Newer technology, and cheaper to boot.

My comparison with an out of stock $399 PCIE 6800GT is just as fair as your choosing a $500 out of stock 6800GT AGP.

 

[housecat]

seems like ppl just are against PCIE or something. its the future guys. get over it!

 

[CaiNaM]

huh? it certainly is in stock:

eVGA nVIDIA GeForce 6800GT Video Card, 256MB GDDR3, 256-Bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "256-A8-N344-AX" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16814130203
Status: In Stock

 

[housecat]

no. its not. wrong product there spud.


XFX nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT Video Card, 256MB GDDR3, 256-Bit, Dual DVI/TV-Out, PCI-E, Model "PVT45GUD" -RETAIL

Model# PVT45GUD
Item # N82E16814150081
Price: $495.50
In Stock: No
FedEx Saver Shipping $5.00

 

[nitromullet]

I didn't notice it was out of stock... well, out of stock isn't much better than overpriced in my book... Sounds like another argument for AGP. "You can either buy AGP for less or PCIe for... umm... er... well, actually, no you can't, sorry!"

 

[housecat]

im not trying to destroy yoru arguement or anything, just shine a different light on the subject.. i just dont think the crowd thats against PCIE.. (or seems to be sheesh!) is completely correct in their evaluations on the situation, seems a bit biased.
which is understandable becuase you dont want to feel like your rather recent investments were somehow inferior to the choices now, or maybe when you bought them.

you know they are not, so lay off poor PCIE.. its great technology, and the future. trying to make PCIE out to look like its some disco fad isnt goingt to extend the life of your AGP 6800s.

 

[nitromullet]

seems like ppl just are against PCIE or something. its the future guys. get over it!

Absolutely not against it... the topic is "Is AGP dead?", no it isn't. If the topic was "does PCIe suck", my answer would be "who knows except a few reviewers who can actually get hold of a PCIe card?". PCIe is definitely the future, but it just doesn't appear to the be the present for most of us.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: housecat
seems like ppl just are against PCIE or something. its the future guys. get over it!

it's not a popularity contest. there's no logical reason anyone would be for or against it. bottom line is agp is quite viable. it has better availability, better value (bang for buck), better selection, better stability, and the same performance as pci-e.

pci-e's time will surely come. prices will drop, availability (both mainboards and vid cards) and selection will increase, and quality will be better with later revisions. there will also come a time when the additional bandwidth, etc. will be useful, and even necessary; it's just not here yet.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

seems like ppl just are against PCIE or something. its the future guys. get over it!

Absolutely not against it... the topic is "Is AGP dead?", no it isn't. If the topic was "does PCIe suck", my answer would be "who knows except a few reviewers who can actually get hold of a PCIe card?". PCIe is definitely the future, but it just doesn't appear to the be the present for most of us.

and i'd agree. but if i could get my hands on a 6800GT PCIE for $399 and that chaintech NF4 for $130... I'd hands down take that over what you showed us with the MSI/6800GT AGP combo for more.

availability is the only caveat at this time.. when they are available the price doesnt seem to be too much of a factor considering the chumbo cards and i think even the NF4 SLI boards are reasonable.
i've seen them as low as $177... not bad at all.

my point is meant to counter yours about price: i dont think price plays that much of a role anymore. they've pretty much equalized, with the PCIE parts being a better deal, of course naturally being the new standard.

availability, as you've pointed out is the only problem left. and thats going to get better in time. jsut not at the moment.

my point is mostly about the price difference that everyone keeps bringing up.

 

[nitromullet]

availability is the only caveat at this time..

we are talking abouit now...

my point is meant to counter yours about price

availability and price go hand-in-hand... I don't really care how cheap something is that I can't buy, it is still out of my reach.

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
[availability and price go hand-in-hand... I don't really care how cheap something is that I can't buy, it is still out of my reach.

Well then! Dont use a nonavailable $500 to make PCIE out to look like a ripoff. Its not, it just takes some hunting.
I dont care how expensive something is if its out my reach.

 

[nitromullet]

Well then! Dont use a nonavailable $500 to make PCIE out to look like a ripoff. Its not, it just takes some hunting.
I dont care how expensive something is if its out my reach.

The fact of the matter is that most of the PCIe 6800GT's listed (in or out of stock) are closer to $500 (seriously price gouged ones have been spotted over $600) than they are to $400. Additionally, the fact that they are out of stock almost everywhere is yet another reason to go AGP for the time being. You seem to imply that availability of these cards is a trivial matter now when earlier in this thread, you stated:

Yes. It is disgusting. esp trying to find a PCIE 6800.

I prefer PCIE, but I'd go AGP right now myself.

What's your point?

 

[housecat]

point was that the pricing is not as bad as you made it out to look like. that was the point.

its hard as fk to find one, but the pricing is not in the horrid reality like the example you showed.

 

[nitromullet]

http://www.markonecomputers.co...sp?pf_id=EVGA_PCIE_008

http://www.computerhq.com/hard...artinfo-id-535611.html

http://www.computerhq.com/hard...artinfo-id-535610.html
http://www.monarchcomputer.com...mp;Product_Code=190659 ETA March 30!!!!

http://www.buyxg.com/store/item.asp?key=vc-135-302 === available, supposedly for $470.

http://www.monarchcomputer.com...mp;Product_Code=190482

 

[imported_kouch]

dead is such a relative term. For people looking to upgrade now or in the near future, of course AGP is dead since it makes no sense to buy a tech that you know is being phased out by a better tech. It is like buying a 754 athlon or even an Athlon XP right now. It is better just to wait. Now for someone like me who has a 6800ultra AGP right now and is in medical school, extremely short on cash and time for the next 3 years, AGP is certainly not dead. I don't intend to upgrade till 2008 summer and for me AGP is just fine and dandy. To each his own I guess.

 

[Jeffyboy]

Yeah.... lots of new boards will be PCIe... some will still be AGP..but, you still have to make the die-hards happy too... people will hang on to their old systems for as long as they can and therefore keep the older AGP cards around... even if PCIe only are being made..they'll still be making AGP cards to help the folks with older systems.

Jeff

 

[housecat]

Originally posted by: kouch
dead is such a relative term. For people looking to upgrade now or in the near future, of course AGP is dead since it makes no sense to buy a tech that you know is being phased out by a better tech. It is like buying a 754 athlon or even an Athlon XP right now. It is better just to wait. Now for someone like me who has a 6800ultra AGP right now and is in medical school, extremely short on cash and time for the next 3 years, AGP is certainly not dead. I don't intend to upgrade till 2008 summer and for me AGP is just fine and dandy. To each his own I guess.

This guy has it right 100%

 

[r0bVious]

Originally posted by: housecat

Originally posted by: kouch
dead is such a relative term. For people looking to upgrade now or in the near future, of course AGP is dead since it makes no sense to buy a tech that you know is being phased out by a better tech. It is like buying a 754 athlon or even an Athlon XP right now. It is better just to wait. Now for someone like me who has a 6800ultra AGP right now and is in medical school, extremely short on cash and time for the next 3 years, AGP is certainly not dead. I don't intend to upgrade till 2008 summer and for me AGP is just fine and dandy. To each his own I guess.

This guy has it right 100%

I'm on a relative budget, I don't want to wait, and my overall performance with my 6800gt golden sample will run at or about GT speeds, AGP or PCIe. It's not that I'm biased, I'm just looking at facts, my bank account, and my absolute need of a new computer.