IRS Scandal explodes. "no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
So sorry, but unless you want to resurrect the Lerner time machine theory, your big conspiracy remains rusting at the bottom of the ocean. Next?

Well, yeh, but they want to believe so badly, so desperately that they won't be content until they hear what they want to hear.

It's like McCarthyism- 50 years later members of the right fringe would still go on about how he was right & that's what's wrong with America.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
We know for a fact that the IRS demanded donor lists from groups with pending applications. We know for a fact that the IRS contacted those individuals and threatened action for not filing gift tax returns, reversing a policy the IRS had followed for thirty-five years. If you wish to pretend those two facts are unconnected, it's a free country. Just don't expect to salvage any slight hint of credibility.
:D

We seem to have the return of the Black Knight. "It's only a flesh wound!" It's amazing how shamelessly you'll bounce from one story to the next, ignoring all the facts blowing holes in your last story and moving the goalposts to something new. As I said:
"But the loons and their handlers were not to be deterred."
So I see your next move is to double down on your conspiracy onion and add yet another new layer: Lerner's IRS targeting scandal was about getting donor lists for gift tax audits. That's why Camp's seemingly unrelated, routine inquiry sent Lerner into the mad panic, trashing her hard drive (using some mysterious feat of technical legerdemain undetectable by the IRS's expert technicians) to destroy the evidence for an inquiry that wouldn't begin until about a year later.

Do I have that about right?

Time to grab your goalposts again, because there are a couple of notable holes in your theory. This gift tax issue came when the IRS announced its intent to start enforcing the law, and picked five people for its first audit. These five people had all donated to Freedom's Watch.
Hole #1 -- Freedom's Watch was already an approved 501(c)(4). They had no pending application.
Hole #2 -- These five people donated in 2008, two years before "Tea Party" was added to the review BOLO.
So sorry, but unless you want to resurrect the Lerner time machine theory, your big conspiracy remains rusting at the bottom of the ocean. Next?
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
I'm not sure if you're truly that slow, or just shamelessly dishonest. We know the IRS used partisan keywords to help quickly identify political groups that might be breaking the law. The IRS acknowledged this and apologized for it. The question -- always -- has been whether there was partisan intent, or merely an ill-considered shortcut.

You ask that and yet call others slow/dishonest. And you wonder why people call you a hack.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
People have been asking where are the explosions promised in the thread title. I think that report may have triggered them, in the heads of the Fox faithful. Nice.

Nah. They'll just pile up a few more sandbags on the bunker o' denial.

Shee-it Sherlock- They still have their thought processes tangled in Birtherism, Fast & Furious, Benghazi, Vince Foster, Whitewater, the Mena airport & the idea that Bert Lance was a crook. Their lives wouldn't be the same without utter faith in their own righteousness & being persecuted on account of it.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Nah. They'll just pile up a few more sandbags on the bunker o' denial.

Shee-it Sherlock- They still have their thought processes tangled in Birtherism, Fast & Furious, Benghazi, Vince Foster, Whitewater, the Mena airport & the idea that Bert Lance was a crook. Their lives wouldn't be the same without utter faith in their own righteousness & being persecuted on account of it.
I suppose. That's the beauty of being a conspiracy nut. Whenever your theory is challenged by reality, it just proves reality is in on the conspiracy.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,768
17,413
136
So far we've only heard from Matt on this latest update and surprisingly (I guess I gave him too much credit), he's decided to double down on the conspiracy theory and ignore the facts.

I'd like to hear from the OP and werepossum, as well as from terry on this matter. Will this be another case of run and hide from the facts or are they capable of admitting that not only was there no scandal but the Obama admin was in no way involved.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
So far we've only heard from Matt on this latest update and surprisingly (I guess I have him too much credit), he's decided to double down on the conspiracy theory and ignore the facts.

I'd like to hear from the OP and werepossum, as well as from terry on this matter. Will this be another case of run and hide from the facts or are they capable of admitting that not only was there no sandal but the Obama admin was in no way involved.

No sandal? Why, that's what happened when that Iraqi guy thew his shoe at Dubya! No sandal! Which means it all comes together in Benghazi where the Muslim leaders of the New World Order have anointed the IRS to invoke Sharia Law! Right after they exterminate all God fearing conservatives with super sekrit Iraqi WMD poisoned letters! Touch the paper inside & die a horrible death like a bug hit with Raid! That's why they killed the Ambassador on Obama's orders! Because he found out! It's all in the disappeared emails!

It makes just as much sense as the rest of the shit Repubs have been flinging.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,768
17,413
136
No sandal? Why, that's what happened when that Iraqi guy thew his shoe at Dubya! No sandal! Which means it all comes together in Benghazi where the Muslim leaders of the New World Order have anointed the IRS to invoke Sharia Law! Right after they exterminate all God fearing conservatives with super sekrit Iraqi WMD poisoned letters! Touch the paper inside & die a horrible death like a bug hit with Raid! That's why they killed the Ambassador on Obama's orders! Because he found out! It's all in the disappeared emails!

It makes just as much sense as the rest of the shit Repubs have been flinging.

Lol! Bastard!

:p
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
-snip-
On May 13, 2011, the IRS confirmed that it began examination of five taxpayers that donated money to IRC 501(c)(4) organizations to determine whether "the donations were taxable gifts and if a gift tax return should have been filed." The applicability of the gift tax to 501(c)(4) donations is an unsettled area of tax law and it appears that it has been applied only a handful of times. Both taxpayers and tax practitioners were stunned at the IRS interest in this issue after decades of silence.

I realize that this area of tax law is unsettled, but to apply gift tax strikes me as deeply irrational:

501(c)(4)s are exempt by Congress so the contributions they take in are non-taxable. The recipient (in this case a 501(c)(4) org) of a gift pays neither income tax nor gift tax on such donations. I.e., gifts are non-taxable. If Congress had intended that such contributions be treated as gifts then it's utterly nonsensical to create the category of 501(c)(4) in the first place. It does nothing.

Fern
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
I realize that this area of tax law is unsettled, but to apply gift tax strikes me as deeply irrational:

501(c)(4)s are exempt by Congress so the contributions they take in are non-taxable. The recipient (in this case a 501(c)(4) org) of a gift pays neither income tax nor gift tax on such donations. I.e., gifts are non-taxable. If Congress had intended that such contributions be treated as gifts then it's utterly nonsensical to create the category of 501(c)(4) in the first place. It does nothing.

Fern

Except that 501(c)4 status totally anonymizes giving, even from the IRS. As a billionaire, I wouldn't have to claim donations on my tax forms at all nor would recipient organizations have to reveal my identity, either. If donations were considered gifts, I'd have to show them on my returns, thus revealing the extent of my activities to the IRS.

That's why conservative donors choose otherwise cumbersome 501(c)4's in the first place, to maintain anonymity. Recipients just reach into the magic hat & presto! out comes untraceable money. It's real handy for hidden campaign efforts like we're seeing in Wisconsin's John Doe II investigation.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,768
17,413
136
So I guess fern has chosen the "ignore the posts completely". Oh well, I guess you don't need to address anything if you didn't read anything counter to your beliefs.


It's looking like this thread is another case study of the CBD.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0

Come on, you really expect these faux news trolls to care about facts?


Matt1970 and werepossum and the other trolls have repeatedly demonstrated facts dont matter to them. Why should these facts change their mind now?

Fox said it was true, that's all they know, and all they want to know.They will continue to argue for their fantasy, not caring about the facts. They have been doing it for years.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,768
17,413
136
No sandal? Why, that's what happened when that Iraqi guy thew his shoe at Dubya! No sandal! Which means it all comes together in Benghazi where the Muslim leaders of the New World Order have anointed the IRS to invoke Sharia Law! Right after they exterminate all God fearing conservatives with super sekrit Iraqi WMD poisoned letters! Touch the paper inside & die a horrible death like a bug hit with Raid! That's why they killed the Ambassador on Obama's orders! Because he found out! It's all in the disappeared emails!

It makes just as much sense as the rest of the shit Repubs have been flinging.

Come on, you really expect these faux news trolls to care about facts?


Matt1970 and werepossum and the other trolls have repeatedly demonstrated facts dont matter to them. Why should these facts change their mind now?

Fox said it was true, that's all they know, and all they want to know.They will continue to argue for their fantasy, not caring about the facts. They have been doing it for years.

Honestly, I just want to see what kind of character they have. I try giving everyone the benefit of the doubt but repeated offenses to logic and facts will get you called out by me. I was just hoping these guys were better than that. It's disappointing really, I like a good debate but a debate is pointless if your opponent isn't willing to acknowledge the facts.


Oh well, I'll just chalk this up as more evidence of the CBD.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Sure, a report from the "Real Liberal Politics" site on a Democrat report means this is officially dead. You could take Bowfinger's "they only accidentally discriminated against conservative groups" tact and look (marginally) less stupid.

I realize that this area of tax law is unsettled, but to apply gift tax strikes me as deeply irrational:

501(c)(4)s are exempt by Congress so the contributions they take in are non-taxable. The recipient (in this case a 501(c)(4) org) of a gift pays neither income tax nor gift tax on such donations. I.e., gifts are non-taxable. If Congress had intended that such contributions be treated as gifts then it's utterly nonsensical to create the category of 501(c)(4) in the first place. It does nothing.

Fern
Which is why for thirty-five years the IRS has NOT taken the tact that these donations are taxable gifts. However, after the landmark SCOTUS decision President Obama called for war and the IRS responded.

Come on, you really expect these faux news trolls to care about facts?


Matt1970 and werepossum and the other trolls have repeatedly demonstrated facts dont matter to them. Why should these facts change their mind now?

Fox said it was true, that's all they know, and all they want to know.They will continue to argue for their fantasy, not caring about the facts. They have been doing it for years.
Shouldn't you be watching Chelsea sleep right now?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
:D

We seem to have the return of the Black Knight. "It's only a flesh wound!" It's amazing how shamelessly you'll bounce from one story to the next, ignoring all the facts blowing holes in your last story and moving the goalposts to something new. As I said:
"But the loons and their handlers were not to be deterred."
So I see your next move is to double down on your conspiracy onion and add yet another new layer: Lerner's IRS targeting scandal was about getting donor lists for gift tax audits. That's why Camp's seemingly unrelated, routine inquiry sent Lerner into the mad panic, trashing her hard drive (using some mysterious feat of technical legerdemain undetectable by the IRS's expert technicians) to destroy the evidence for an inquiry that wouldn't begin until about a year later.

Do I have that about right?

Time to grab your goalposts again, because there are a couple of notable holes in your theory. This gift tax issue came when the IRS announced its intent to start enforcing the law, and picked five people for its first audit. These five people had all donated to Freedom's Watch.
Hole #1 -- Freedom's Watch was already an approved 501(c)(4). They had no pending application.
Hole #2 -- These five people donated in 2008, two years before "Tea Party" was added to the review BOLO.
So sorry, but unless you want to resurrect the Lerner time machine theory, your big conspiracy remains rusting at the bottom of the ocean. Next?
Camp's letter was unrelated to Lerner's activity only if one is a complete moron. One could so claim only if one is a complete moron or if one is totally dishonest. Everyone knows this. Literally everyone.

As far as Lerner needing "some mysterious feat of technical legerdemain undetectable by the IRS's expert technicians) to destroy the evidence requested in Camp's letter, that too requires either the mental ability of a moron or a complete technical ignorance to believe. I suggest that rather than a tech site, you should peddle such theories on quilting sites. Well, maybe not - the popularity of computerized sewing machines likely means those ladies also would see right through you.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Shouldn't you be watching Chelsea sleep right now?

See, this is what ignorant trolls like werepossum think is a logical argument. No facts, not even close to reality, but he doesn't care.

100% fact free personal attack. He's just mad because he had to admit he doesn't mind government abuse. Werepossum believes the law only should apply to people he likes, those he doesn't like don't any of the laws protection.

Typical faux news troll. But I think everyone in the forum already knows that.

Poor werepossum...you keep trolling and dig that hole you are in deeper and deeper
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Honestly, I just want to see what kind of character they have. I try giving everyone the benefit of the doubt but repeated offenses to logic and facts will get you called out by me. I was just hoping these guys were better than that. It's disappointing really, I like a good debate but a debate is pointless if your opponent isn't willing to acknowledge the facts.


Oh well, I'll just chalk this up as more evidence of the CBD.

Many have tried, all have failed. Trolls like this don't care about reality. In 10years, they still will be claiming Obama is a secret Muslim, Hillary killed Vince Foster, the IRS went after conservatives, etch etc etc.

Most of them still probably believe that Saddam aided Aq in 9/11, and that we did find WMD.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Sure, a report from the "Real Liberal Politics" site on a Democrat report means this is officially dead.
Well, you could try reading it yourself, but that would require actually using your brain. Never fear, I'm sure within a few days Fox and the other nutter propaganda sites will put together slide shows and cartoons to tell you what to think about it.

Speaking of which, does anyone else find it strange (and by strange, I mean completely predictable) that the nutter propaganda sites don't seem to have stories about this new report? I mean, these rags have obsessively, breathlessly covered every little IRS non-story they could contrive in their quest for "truth", but suddenly are mute when the Senate publishes a detailed, well-documented report. Fox, Daily Caller, The Hill, etc., either have ignored this report so far, or have it buried so well I didn't see it on their sites or on Google.


You could take Bowfinger's "they only accidentally discriminated against conservative groups" tact and look (marginally) less stupid.
Learn something, you defective tool. From this Senate report:
"The Subcommittee investigation has reached many of the same conclusions as the TIGTA audit of the 501(c)(4) application process. The Subcommittee investigation found that the IRS used inappropriate screening criteria when it flagged for increased scrutiny applications based upon the applicants’ names or political views rather than direct evidence of their involvement with campaign activities. The Subcommittee investigation also found significant program mismanagement, including years-long delays in processing 501(c)(4) applications; inappropriate, intrusive, and burdensome questioning of groups; and poor communication and coordination between IRS officials in Washington and Cincinnati. At the same time, like TIGTA, the Subcommittee investigation found no evidence of IRS political bias in selecting 501(c)(4) applications for heightened review, as distinguished from using poor judgment in crafting the selection criteria. Based on investigative work that went beyond what TIGTA examined, the Subcommittee investigation also determined that the same problems affected IRS review of 501(c)(4) applications filed by liberal groups."
To be clear, I expect you will ignore these inconvenient findings and continue to lie about them. If we've learned nothing else about you in this story, it's that once you commit to a lie, there is no amount of factual evidence in the world that can get you to correct yourself.

For example, will you ever show the integrity to admit you lied when you insisted, "The Obama administration has claimed that sixty percent of the groups targeted ... were not conservative groups?"


Which is why for thirty-five years the IRS has NOT taken the tact that these donations are taxable gifts. However, after the landmark SCOTUS decision President Obama called for war and the IRS responded. ...
Yes, yes, we know. The IRS suddenly decided it should start enforcing the law. Completely inappropriate ... if you're a corrupt political group or a party toady that cheers corruption.


By the way, according to some of the emails recently disclosed, the real impetus for this was the tremendous impact of the Citizens United ruling. When the realm of 501(c)(4)s was mostly true civic groups, animal shelters, park renovations, and that sort of thing, the dollars were generally small and the motives generally pure. Gift taxes made little sense. With Citizens United, 501(c)(4)s were quickly co-opted as a tool for funneling piles of dirty dollars into politics anonymously. Gift taxes, already legal, suddenly also became worthwhile.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Camp's letter was unrelated to Lerner's activity only if one is a complete moron. One could so claim only if one is a complete moron or if one is totally dishonest. Everyone knows this. Literally everyone.
Thank you for proving me right once again:
We seem to have the return of the Black Knight. "It's only a flesh wound!" It's amazing how shamelessly you'll bounce from one story to the next, ignoring all the facts blowing holes in your last story and moving the goalposts to something new.
I point out two more huge holes in your wild conspiracy theory. You ignore them again, and continue spouting the same party propaganda. While that makes you a faithful tool, it also makes you useless for intelligent discussion. Go play, Stewie.


As far as Lerner needing "some mysterious feat of technical legerdemain undetectable by the IRS's expert technicians) to destroy the evidence requested in Camp's letter, that too requires either the mental ability of a moron or a complete technical ignorance to believe. I suggest that rather than a tech site, you should peddle such theories on quilting sites. Well, maybe not - the popularity of computerized sewing machines likely means those ladies also would see right through you.
Put up or shut up. Give us your theory on how a non-technical bureaucrat like Lerner so thoroughly destroyed her hard drive that a senior forensics expert with specialized equipment couldn't even get the drive into a Ready state, yet she left no evidence of her tampering. This should be amusing (except, of course, you'll weasel out again).
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Thank you for proving me right once again:
We seem to have the return of the Black Knight. "It's only a flesh wound!" It's amazing how shamelessly you'll bounce from one story to the next, ignoring all the facts blowing holes in your last story and moving the goalposts to something new.
I point out two more huge holes in your wild conspiracy theory. You ignore them again, and continue spouting the same party propaganda. While that makes you a faithful tool, it also makes you useless for intelligent discussion. Go play, Stewie.

Put up or shut up. Give us your theory on how a non-technical bureaucrat like Lerner so thoroughly destroyed her hard drive that a senior forensics expert with specialized equipment couldn't even get the drive into a Ready state, yet she left no evidence of her tampering. This should be amusing (except, of course, you'll weasel out again).
Step one: Turn on laptop.
Step two: Begin a copy operation.
Step three: Shake laptop vigorously.
Step four: Go over laptop with a powerful magnet. (This step was inadvertently discovered by quilters and sewers who discovered that that dandy new magnetic scissors holder mounted on the sewing machine) wiped out the machine's memory.)

The result is a physically damaged platter which has been wiped clean.

Of course, this would not be a problem in and of itself except that the IRS blatantly ignores the law on document retention.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,768
17,413
136
Sure, a report from the "Real Liberal Politics" site on a Democrat report means this is officially dead. You could take Bowfinger's "they only accidentally discriminated against conservative groups" tact and look (marginally) less stupid.


Which is why for thirty-five years the IRS has NOT taken the tact that these donations are taxable gifts. However, after the landmark SCOTUS decision President Obama called for war and the IRS responded.


Shouldn't you be watching Chelsea sleep right now?

I'm really disappointed in you werepossum. I thought that of all the righties in this thread you would be the one man enough to admit that there is no conspiracy and you would be the one to acknowledge the facts.

I understand why you think politicsusa is a left leaning site, what I can't understand is how you clearly didn't even bother to read the report. This "democrat" report was signed by a democrat and a republican, John McCain. What's next? Are you going to tell me the republican presidential nominee is a RINO?

Here, stop embarrassing yourself:

http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/downloa...ta-mgmt-failures-related-to-501c4-sept-5-2014
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I'm really disappointed in you werepossum. I thought that of all the righties in this thread you would be the one man enough to admit that there is no conspiracy and you would be the one to acknowledge the facts.

I understand why you think politicsusa is a left leaning site, what I can't understand is how you clearly didn't even bother to read the report. This "democrat" report was signed by a democrat and a republican, John McCain. What's next? Are you going to tell me the republican presidential nominee is a RINO?

Here, stop embarrassing yourself:

http://www.hsgac.senate.gov/downloa...ta-mgmt-failures-related-to-501c4-sept-5-2014
Dude, it isn't my opinion that politicsusa is a left leaning site, it's the subtitle of their site: Real liberal politics. The site's existence is to push liberal policies, period, and they make no bones about it. It isn't a lean, it's a purpose.

As far as the report, did YOU read it? Group names like "Occupy" were added two years after the conservative group names. Conservative groups were asked three times the questions. Conservative groups were subject to delays several times longer than liberal groups. ONLY conservative groups' donor lists were leaked. And the Senate report chastises the TIGTA report for failing to say there was no political bias involved? Not buying the idea that this was somehow accidental. Not surprised that McCain buys it - until he ran for President he didn't reach across the aisle, he lived there between elections. Only in abortion has he ever been a strong conservative outside of when he is up for election, and then only when he faces a strong challenger. Note that no other Republicans signed on. This is merely the Democrat version of Issa.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
You can't show that Lerner even knew Camp's letter existed, werepossum. In that context, the letter's content is immaterial.

It's just another necessary leap of faith to help the chumps believe in conspiracy.