IRS Scandal explodes. "no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Nope. As has been previously noted some individuals and organization will not donate money unless and until exempt status can be proven. So, delaying approval/notification of exempt status can prevent otherwise exempt orgs from beginning operations.

Fern

Please. The very act of applying indicates that operations have begun, if minimally.

The rest?

"Money? Hey, that's not my money- I don't finance an assemblage of astroturfed looney tunes! It's really grassroots! Honest!"

Plausible deniability is a marvelous thing.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Clearly untrue? I'd like to know how you know that other than complete dishonesty on your part.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/lois-lerner-irs-scandal-108399_Page2.html
The dishonesty remains yours. As you, yourself noted just a few posts earlier, Lerner's attorney later corrected this, saying he misunderstood and that Lerner had printed some email. In other words, while Lerner's attorney didn't understand IRS policy, it's a sure bet that a senior leader like Lerner did. The open question remains how well did Lerner follow that policy for that subset of email that qualified as official records.


There are many stories out there stating the same thing. This was the original explanation by Lerner and her attorney, but it was changed. Probably because of how stupid it was.
Probably because Lerner's lawyer, presumably not a federal employee, wasn't familiar with this IRS policy. This isn't difficult to understand ... for anyone truly interested in comprehension.


You are right, I have no idea exactly how many are missing. But given how many we have which tells us frequency of email use and then the length of time of the missing emails, its a good guess that thousands are unaccounted for. They have ~67,000 emails and have been able to recover ~24,000 emails from other email accounts. The IRS could keep ~1800 emails before they had to be deleted or moved to a hard drive. So again, its a good guess that we are dealing with thousands but even if its was hundreds, that's significant.

You are also right, I have no idea how many were official records. But again, its safe for any rational person to assume, there was at least one. Its also safe to conclude that Federal law has been broken due to the missing emails. Its up to the IRS to prove they didn't destroy any official records. To date, that haven't been able to prove that.
It depends on how much of a pack rat Lerner was, but I suspect the number is relatively small. The IRS was able to recover all of Lerner's missing emails except for those not copied to anyone else in the IRS. One would expect most of her official mail would be copied to others in the IRS. Not necessarily all official mail, I agree, but most. But this is only speculation. Neither of us knows for sure.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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The dishonesty remains yours. As you, yourself noted just a few posts earlier, Lerner's attorney later corrected this, saying he misunderstood and that Lerner had printed some email. In other words, while Lerner's attorney didn't understand IRS policy, it's a sure bet that a senior leader like Lerner did. The open question remains how well did Lerner follow that policy for that subset of email that qualified as official records.

If you've ever worked for a giant bureaucracy, you recognize the "print your emails" directive as an archetypical example of "Tell me you love me, then you can fuck me." The proposition is absurd.

I'd be extremely surprised if more than a small % knew that was the only backup, or if they were really informed of that as a requirement in a meaningful way at all. A person could go their whole career w/o printing a damned thing and nobody would care if they didn't.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Yeh, Judicial Watch talking head claims that unnamed IRS lawyer told him that all the files really were backed up & you believe him because you want to. Hell, you need to believe something, anything that might keep the conspiracy theory inflated.

Freaking hysterical chumps.
 

schmuckley

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2011
2,335
1
0
Hysterical?
A) This happened
B) Nixon was impeached for less
C) Stuff like this should never happen
D) There will be repercussions
This isn't Nazi Germany
It will never be either.No matter how much some douchebags want it to.
God bless the USA.
:p
Nice try.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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The shilling is stupendous around here! :p
Oh..This just in: The IRS had the emails along..but were trying to delete everything

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...ted-lois-lerners-lost-emails-were-backed-up/#
You know, if you ever bothered to read these threads instead of barging in, squeezing out a couple of steaming talking points, and prancing away, you would know that non-story has already been refuted. You don't even have to read the whole thread, just the last page or so. As usual, Judicial Watch lied about the super secret backup system. And as usual, the nutter media ran with it anyway, not bothering to do even rudimentary fact-checking. And as usual, the gullible rubes swallowed it whole and spread the lies. Good boy.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Yeh, Judicial Watch talking head claims that unnamed IRS lawyer told him that all the files really were backed up & you believe him because you want to. Hell, you need to believe something, anything that might keep the conspiracy theory inflated.

Freaking hysterical chumps.

Hysterical?
A) This happened
B) Nixon was impeached for less
C) Stuff like this should never happen
D) There will be repercussions
This isn't Nazi Germany
It will never be either.No matter how much some douchebags want it to.
God bless the USA.
:p
Nice try.

Maybe drunk & hysterical would be more accurate. Chump applies in any event.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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You know, if you ever bothered to read these threads instead of barging in, squeezing out a couple of steaming talking points, and prancing away, you would know that non-story has already been refuted. You don't even have to read the whole thread, just the last page or so. As usual, Judicial Watch lied about the super secret backup system. And as usual, the nutter media ran with it anyway, not bothering to do even rudimentary fact-checking. And as usual, the gullible rubes swallowed it whole and spread the lies. Good boy.

Bullshit from Bowfinger yet again. It hasn't been refuted. You've got one guy in one interview saying that all this is about stuff already mentioned. You took that and ran with it but if you look at the big picture, its far from refuted. Especially considering he is an administration lawyer, not exactly an expert on IRS IT workings. There was also no fact-checking in this case and the tool ran with it. But its okay for the tool I guess?

The big question becomes, if it was the same system, why was the reply that it would be too "onerous" of a task to search for the missing emails? Afterall, the Exchange server only had the capacity for ~1500 emails. The tape backups have all been since destroyed. In fact, why was this the reply at all seeing is how it was supposedly the same old system and nothing new? Why wasn't the reply that there isn't anything to look at, its all gone?

Please go ahead and source where you saw this story, since you failed to do it the first time. Probably part of the reason you post was looked over. But go on running your mouth and attacking people for doing exactly what you are guilty of. If one thing is certain, its that that your powers of projection are pretty epic. Good boy.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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I do love it. When a Judicial Watch talking head makes the claim that an IRS lawyer told him that backups exist, that the whole federal govt is backed up somewhere, somehow in an undisclosed fashion, that instantly becomes Gospel in the right wing echo chamber. Because it's what the chumps want to believe, so they do.

Exploitation of motivated reasoning in a defective belief system, Ho!
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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I do love it. When a Judicial Watch talking head makes the claim that an IRS lawyer told him that backups exist, that the whole federal govt is backed up somewhere, somehow in an undisclosed fashion, that instantly becomes Gospel in the right wing echo chamber. Because it's what the chumps want to believe, so they do.

Exploitation of motivated reasoning in a defective belief system, Ho!

No, it doesn't become gospel. But to any objective observer, the response from the government is what is suspect here. Again, why the "it would be too onerous" response if the system didn't exist or if we were still talking about already mentioned tape backups and exchange servers. Neither of which would be too onerous at all to search since one is gone forever and the other only holds roughly ~1500 emails per user.

I have no idea if a backup exists or not. But I find the response from the investigators quite interesting as well as the supposed explanation from the administration lawyer.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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No, it doesn't become gospel. But to any objective observer, the response from the government is what is suspect here. Again, why the "it would be too onerous" response if the system didn't exist or if we were still talking about already mentioned tape backups and exchange servers. Neither of which would be too onerous at all to search since one is gone forever and the other only holds roughly ~1500 emails per user.

I have no idea if a backup exists or not. But I find the response from the investigators quite interesting as well as the supposed explanation from the administration lawyer.

The govt didn't say it would be too onerous- Judicial Watch merely claims that's what they said. That difference is significant.

They're just going on about the blackberry as if that hasn't already been hashed to death, selling a line of shit to the techno-illiterates, mashing it up with broader unsubstantiated claims in the process.

Remember- "Fitton said" is an unsubstantiated claim, likely just red meat for the Faithful. They're going for it like they always do.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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The govt didn't say it would be too onerous- Judicial Watch merely claims that's what they said. That difference is significant.

They're just going on about the blackberry as if that hasn't already been hashed to death, selling a line of shit to the techno-illiterates, mashing it up with broader unsubstantiated claims in the process.

Remember- "Fitton said" is an unsubstantiated claim, likely just red meat for the Faithful. They're going for it like they always do.

Those were quotes taken directly from the inspectors. Judicial Watch definitely wants that to mean something but that certainly doesn't matter to me.

If you really think that this was made up by Judicial Watch, again the response from the administration official doesn't seem to fit that. Why doesn't he say that that wasn't what the inspectors told JW. Why does he respond in a way that backs up what was told to JW? He is merely attempting to clarify the statement made by inspectors. Well, I have to ask, why would he have to clarify something that JW made up?

I think the Faithful here is people like yourself. You're like Bowfinger, epic in your projection.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,752
48,581
136
Hysterical?
A) This happened
B) Nixon was impeached for less
C) Stuff like this should never happen
D) There will be repercussions
This isn't Nazi Germany
It will never be either.No matter how much some douchebags want it to.
God bless the USA.
:p
Nice try.


Fail.

Adding the Nazi Germany part just ups it to Pathetic Fail.

Just stop. Histrionics isn't going to turn this 'scandal' around for you guys, deal with it.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Those were quotes taken directly from the inspectors. Judicial Watch definitely wants that to mean something but that certainly doesn't matter to me.

If you really think that this was made up by Judicial Watch, again the response from the administration official doesn't seem to fit that. Why doesn't he say that that wasn't what the inspectors told JW. Why does he respond in a way that backs up what was told to JW? He is merely attempting to clarify the statement made by inspectors. Well, I have to ask, why would he have to clarify something that JW made up?

I think the Faithful here is people like yourself. You're like Bowfinger, epic in your projection.

I'll get back to this when I have more time, but what "inspectors" are you talking about? I'm guessing you are just filling in ignorance by making things up, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

To help you get started, this secret federal backup story came when Judicial Watch's frontman claimed in a TV interview that one of his guys was talking to an unnamed Justice Department lawyer, and that lawyer allegedly spilled the beans on this secret master backup that was too onerous to search. Note again that JW doesn't name his guy or the DoJ guy, or offer actual quotes. He just offered a completely unsupported rumor that the nutter media printed as gospel.

Also, you are wrong about not sourcing the rebuttal. I said the source was Fox. I did not include the link, but I did copy the entire paragraph verbatim. Unlike Judicial Watch, Fox provided an actual quote, though not a name. Certainly not great journalism, but more than enough to refute an unsupported rumor by an adversarial party who was contradicting multiple instances of sworn testimony and documentation.

But anyway, what "inspectors"?
 
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xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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I'll get back to this when I have more time, but what "inspectors" are you talking about? I'm guessing you are just filling in ignorance by making things up, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

To help you get started, this secret federal backup story came when Judicial Watch's frontman claimed in a TV interview that one of his guys was talking to an unnamed Justice Department lawyer, and that lawyer allegedly spilled the beans on this secret master backup that was too onerous to search. Note again that JW doesn't name his guy or the DoJ guy, or offer actual quotes. He just offered a completely unsupported rumor that the nutter media printed as gospel.

Also, you are wrong about not sourcing the rebuttal. I said the source was Fox. I did not include the link, but I did copy the entire paragraph verbatim. Unlike Judicial Watch, Fox provided an actual quote, though not a name. Certainly not great journalism, but more than enough to refute an unsupported rumor by an adversarial party who was contradicting multiple instances of sworn testimony and documentation.

But anyway, what "inspectors"?

They were justice department attorneys. I might have mischaracterized them as inspectors when I read justice department. Also, the confusion is probably because the admin attorney referred to the inspector general in his rebuttal about the statement.

Also, it wasn't one lawyers from the justice department, all stories indicate plural lawyers. The admin lawyer's claim is also completely unsupported as well, but that doesn't stop you from running with it all the while claiming others are guilty of running with unsupported rumors. The statement was obviously made by the justice department otherwise there would have been nothing for the admin lawyer to clarify. Notice he does ever say that they didn't say that, he just tried to clarify what they meant by it.

But I have to ask? WTF does it matter if they are inspectors or attorneys? You've fixated on a completely irrelevant word. They were from the justice department and that's all that matters.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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They were justice department attorneys. I might have mischaracterized them as inspectors when I read justice department. Also, the confusion is probably because the admin attorney referred to the inspector general in his rebuttal about the statement.

Fitton said that IRS lawyers said blah blah blah.

Quote & link the IRS lawyers.

Confusion? You betcha. It's deliberately sown by the sources you trust. They astroturfed it right into your fertile imagination.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Fitton said that IRS lawyers said blah blah blah.

Quote & link the IRS lawyers.

Confusion? You betcha. It's deliberately sown by the sources you trust. They astroturfed it right into your fertile imagination.

Okay, I'll grant you its confusion.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ner-emails-likely-exist-in-back-up-computers/

Fitton said DOJ attorneys told him the federal government backs up all computer records to ensure the continuity of government in event of a catastrophe. They told him that retrieving the emails from Lerner, a former IRS official, would be "too onerous" - a legal burden that can exempt an agency from complying with FOIA requests.

The quote is coming from his source, the justice department attorneys.

You seem to still think that the lawyers didn't say anything of what is claimed. But why would an admin lawyer have to clarify a statement that was never made? If they never said anything about a new system or more importantly about searching through it, then why doesn't the admin lawyer just say that (he did mention that its not new, actually). Why does he add validity to the JW claim by just clarifying the response from justice department attorneys instead of just invalidating the whole JW claim about what they were told by justice department attorneys?

Again, I've got to ask why they even brought up searching through something that doesn't exist. The backup that the admin lawyer clarified was mentioned before by the IRS director were the tape drives. Those tapes are long gone, so they are talking about searching through something that no longer exists and it being too difficult. That seems rather odd.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Okay, I'll grant you its confusion.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ner-emails-likely-exist-in-back-up-computers/



The quote is coming from his source, the justice department attorneys.

You seem to still think that the lawyers didn't say anything of what is claimed. But why would an admin lawyer have to clarify a statement that was never made? If they never said anything about a new system or more importantly about searching through it, then why doesn't the admin lawyer just say that (he did mention that its not new, actually). Why does he add validity to the JW claim by just clarifying the response from justice department attorneys instead of just invalidating the whole JW claim about what they were told by justice department attorneys?

Again, I've got to ask why they even brought up searching through something that doesn't exist. The backup that the admin lawyer clarified was mentioned before by the IRS director were the tape drives. Those tapes are long gone, so they are talking about searching through something that no longer exists and it being too difficult. That seems rather odd.

You're operating on false premises. Fitton offers hearsay, and you merely repeat it as fact.

Why would the govt need to clarify what was said? To unspin the disinformation that Fitton offered. Sheesh. From Fox-

However, an administration official told Fox News Monday night, “ There was no new back-up system described last week to Judicial Watch. Government lawyers who spoke to Judicial Watch simply referred to the same email retention policy that Commissioner (John) Koskinen had described in his Congressional testimony.”

Imagine that. You're like a dog chasing a ball when the thrower just did a pump fake.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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You're operating on false premises. Fitton offers hearsay, and you merely repeat it as fact.

Why would the govt need to clarify what was said? To unspin the disinformation that Fitton offered. Sheesh. From Fox-



Imagine that. You're like a dog chasing a ball when the thrower just did a pump fake.

Have you even read what I've posted? Why if there is no new backup system and the system that they were talking about is same retention policy did they say it would be too difficult to search through? The retention policy that Koskinen described was tape drives and backups. Tapes that have since been destroyed. Why is it difficult to search through something that doesn't exist? Wouldn't it be impossible, instead of just too onerous? Why wasn't that the response?

It doesn't matter what Fitton said and I've never claimed it was fact. I've been talking about the response to it, not what he said and you'd know that if you had been paying attention. What matters is the response from the others. Obviously the justice department attorneys talked about a backup system. Obviously the topic of conversation was searching through it. Obviously the admin lawyer says that its the same backup system that Koskinen described. That doesn't explain why justice department attorneys are talking about searching through something that doesn't exist anymore or more accurately obviously isn't searchable.
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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They were justice department attorneys. I might have mischaracterized them as inspectors when I read justice department. Also, the confusion is probably because the admin attorney referred to the inspector general in his rebuttal about the statement.
Fair enough. I thought that was probably the case, but wanted to be sure I hadn't missed some new development or a different story. There's no point in me addressing 'A' if you were talking about 'B'.


Also, it wasn't one lawyers from the justice department, all stories indicate plural lawyers.
All those stories are based on the same comment from Fitton, from that one interview on Fox. I also don't think the number of Justice Department lawyers is material, other than offering a corroborating witness if Issa gets his shorts in a bunch and calls them all into his kangaroo court to explain this "shocking" revelation.


The admin lawyer's claim is also completely unsupported as well,
On the contrary, as I pointed out, the administration claim is supported by a great deal of sworn testimony and official evidence. It is Fitton that raised the new allegation contradicting all this evidence. He therefore bears the burden of proof. He offered none.


but that doesn't stop you from running with it all the while claiming others are guilty of running with unsupported rumors. The statement was obviously made by the justice department otherwise there would have been nothing for the admin lawyer to clarify. Notice he does ever say that they didn't say that, he just tried to clarify what they meant by it.
Of course they did. Fitton made a false claim that set the nutter world on fire ... again. The Justice Department had to refute that claim, politely telling Fox that Fitton was full of it ... again. Such is the current state of America, that some will feast on garbage if it fits their partisan agenda, and will insist it's the real deal unless it's quickly refuted (and will often continue to insist it's true even after they're shown they've been duped yet again -- zombie lies).


But I have to ask? WTF does it matter if they are inspectors or attorneys? You've fixated on a completely irrelevant word. They were from the justice department and that's all that matters.
Settle down. In your comment to which I responded, you didn't mention Justice Department once. I wanted to be sure we were talking about the same thing.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Have you even read what I've posted? Why if there is no new backup system and the system that they were talking about is same retention policy did they say it would be too difficult to search through? The retention policy that Koskinen described was tape drives and backups. Tapes that have since been destroyed. Why is it difficult to search through something that doesn't exist? Wouldn't it be impossible, instead of just too onerous? Why wasn't that the response?

It doesn't matter what Fitton said and I've never claimed it was fact. I've been talking about the response to it, not what he said and you'd know that if you had been paying attention. What matters is the response from the others. Obviously the justice department attorneys talked about a backup system. Obviously the topic of conversation was searching through it. Obviously the admin lawyer says that its the same backup system that Koskinen described. That doesn't explain why justice department attorneys are talking about searching through something that doesn't exist anymore or more accurately obviously isn't searchable.

*Obviously*, Fitton is pumping sunshine up your skirt. He merely claimed that IRS attorneys said that it would be onerous to search for Lerner's emails, realizing that you & many other would jump to the conclusion that there was something to search.

According to the IRS, there is no addl backup system, therefore nothing to search.

According to Fitton, they told him there was *in a phone conversation*, but it would be too onerous to search. He backs up that claim with the wind at his back.

You're being chumped. Recognize it & move on.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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OK. Let me clear something up because it appears that Bowfinger and Jhhnn are both incorrectly assuming something about me. I do not believe what Judicial Watch believes. I do not believe that the conversation they had with justice department attorneys shows that the emails exists, have always existed, and that there exists some sort of new backup location for them. What I think it shows is that the justice department attorneys were being incredibly dumb and spoke about thing which they had little knowledge. I think that more questions were raised than answered when the admin attorney stepped in and attempted to clarify their ignorant comments.

I still think this is important and should be addressed. It shows a lack of competence on the part of the justice department otherwise.

I'm willing to bet the tune changes once you realize that I don't agree with the JW conclusion here. I just think they raised some question that still need to be answered.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Bullshit from Bowfinger yet again.
Speaking of projecting...


It hasn't been refuted. You've got one guy in one interview saying that all this is about stuff already mentioned. You took that and ran with it but if you look at the big picture, its far from refuted.
As discussed, the administration has sworn testimony and evidence to support it. Fitton started a rumor based on anonymous hearsay. Unless he can offer credible evidence of some sort, his rumor has been refuted.


Especially considering he is an administration lawyer, not exactly an expert on IRS IT workings.
Oh, you mean just like Fitton's guy and the Justice Department lawyer(s) he was talking with are not IT experts? I wonder how that could possibly lead to confusion or technical misunderstandings.

:rolleyes:


There was also no fact-checking in this case and the tool ran with it. But its okay for the tool I guess?
Sniff. Let the butt-hurt flow, honey.


The big question becomes, if it was the same system, why was the reply that it would be too "onerous" of a task to search for the missing emails? Afterall, the Exchange server only had the capacity for ~1500 emails. The tape backups have all been since destroyed. In fact, why was this the reply at all seeing is how it was supposedly the same old system and nothing new? Why wasn't the reply that there isn't anything to look at, its all gone?
First and foremost, you're continuing to accept Fitton's hearsay as an accurate summary of the Justice Department attorneys' statements. That is not a safe assumption at all. It's quite possible he simply invented it to make his tale more "shocking".

But even if we accept that there's some kernel of truth in Fitton's claim, it's a dead end without actual quotes or at least much greater detail. Based on other information about this case, I can imagine topics that might legitimately inspire such a comment. It would only be speculation, however.


Please go ahead and source where you saw this story, since you failed to do it the first time. Probably part of the reason you post was looked over. But go on running your mouth and attacking people for doing exactly what you are guilty of. If one thing is certain, its that that your powers of projection are pretty epic. Good boy.
It was Fox, which I clearly stated when I posted the quote. Re. the rest of your prattle, get over yourself. One reason I frost you so badly is because I so consistently use facts and data to poke holes in your faith.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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OK. Let me clear something up because it appears that Bowfinger and Jhhnn are both incorrectly assuming something about me. I do not believe what Judicial Watch believes. I do not believe that the conversation they had with justice department attorneys shows that the emails exists, have always existed, and that there exists some sort of new backup location for them. What I think it shows is that the justice department attorneys were being incredibly dumb and spoke about thing which they had little knowledge. I think that more questions were raised than answered when the admin attorney stepped in and attempted to clarify their ignorant comments.

I still think this is important and should be addressed. It shows a lack of competence on the part of the justice department otherwise.

I'm willing to bet the tune changes once you realize that I don't agree with the JW conclusion here. I just think they raised some question that still need to be answered.
We definitely need clarity on exactly what was backed up and where. I can remember years ago reading a story about the system Fitton seems to be describing. The claim was that every single email, order, and official transaction for the entire federal government was backed up every night, so that for example if the IRS headquarters in destroyed at noon on 8/29/14 there exists a rebuildable record up to close of business on 8/28/14. It's virtually a requirement; otherwise if the IRS computers and paper records are destroyed with an Oklahoma City or 9-11 type attack, all pending IRS business disappears and the IRS would have literally no idea who owed what. A nuclear bomb in D.C. and the federal government would be starting from near zero if its business is not backed up, as even rules agreements would suddenly disappear. That kind of record would indeed be onerous to search, as you would have to rebuild the entire IRS database for the years in question to search it. But from what we've seen, it's entirely possible that the IRS really is that incompetent and its records are totally unduplicated even this long after 9-11.