IRS Scandal explodes. "no evidence that would support a criminal prosecution."

[Moonbeam]

I actually find their highly "selective" rationalization skills to be quite amazing...and am now beginning to think some of our friends here are fucking insane.

Oh, you haven't even begun to have fun yet. Wait till you start thinking of ways to make them see it. You are going to run into a rather massive defect that is going to be peculiarly difficult to get around.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Oh, you haven't even begun to have fun yet. Wait till you start thinking of ways to make them see it. You are going to run into a rather massive defect that is going to be peculiarly difficult to get around.

How about you render an opinion regarding the topic at hand and we'll start from there.

 

[First]

Still no smoking gun after all this time? I'm floored, just floored!

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Still no smoking gun after all this time? I'm floored, just floored!

Agree...the obfuscation has been quite effective.

 

[xBiffx]

...and I ahven't been following this all that closely, but it seems that the party line argument here is:

dems: IRS is investigating fraudulent, or potentially fraudulent claims as non-profit organizations
repus: If this were true, then democrat-leaning organizations would be persecuted and prosecuted at the same rate!

Is that basically the current line?

My question then, and I'm sure this has already been brought up and many of you have a saved text file somewhere on your desktop with all of the relevant links, but...is it not possible that the reason there is a disproportionate amount of repub-leaning organizations in this investigation because those organizations just uh...tend to be more fraudulent?

Here comes that rate concept. I know Biff will enjoy it.

Anyway, I haven't been following this so I honestly don't know if there is substantial information involving the actual investigation (showing that it was a broad investigation, targeting 501c's with a rather blind eye), and that the results tended to favor GOP orgs as the largest offenders, and this is what creates the perception that it was targeted and politically motivated pettiness. I'm a rather cynical fella when it comes to our current political environment, so please excuse me that this is my first assumption.

You haven't been following and you still felt the need to reinforce that statement by showing everyone how truly ignorant you are. Great job. Mission accomplished.

And no this was never about investigating anything. This has always been about an application process. The IRS didn't investigate anything further than what was needed to figure out what side of the political spectrum the applicant was on.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It appears that liberal's huge dissatisfaction with the Citizens United decision apparently sparked this witch hunt. Lerner knew full well that the the vast majority of the c4 applications were from conservative groups and apparently she willfully chose to delay approvals including using such techniques as burdening applicants with incredibly detailed information requests with extremely short compliance dates. Meanwhile she pursued enhanced punishments (over and beyond what existed) for possible "crimes" before there was ANY evidence of criminal activity. The liberal talking point that these applications represented liberal interests as well is total bullshit rationalization imo....the number was very, very limited. What Lerner did was wrong. Period.

 

[Moonbeam]

How about you render an opinion regarding the topic at hand and we'll start from there.

I am a fanatical absolutist about my opinion. There is zero chance that I can be wrong but if you really want to hear it, it's that I have no opinion at all. I can't see into the hearts of the people involved in this issue and can only guess at their motivations, which I decline to do. I have this massive ego that makes me humble about these things. And talk about ego. I am so so so so sure that I don't know anything about the real facts of this issue that I am also sure that nobody posting here does either. But I sure know they think they do.

 

[ivwshane]

The righties are back for more? This ought to be good!

 

[First]

When Jan. 2017 rolls around, just before the new Congress/POTUS is sworn in, and there's still no smoking gun or indictments handed down, I wonder if Republicans in the House and Senate will finally be complicit in the IRS scandal for dereliction of duty after years of Congressional control? It would be an amazing feat to accomplish nothing with years of Republican investigation given the obvious lawbreaking scandal that has taken place, amiright? Ditto Benghazi.

Overreach, USA. A Republican stronghold.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I am a fanatical absolutist about my opinion. There is zero chance that I can be wrong but if you really want to hear it, it's that I have no opinion at all. I can't see into the hearts of the people involved in this issue and can only guess at their motivations, which I decline to do. I have this massive ego that makes me humble about these things. And talk about ego. I am so so so so sure that I don't know anything about the real facts of this issue that I am also sure that nobody posting here does either. But I sure know they think they do.

Yes, there's a lot of speculation as to motives...and as facts continue to surface, these motives will become much more clear. We've come a long, long way from 2 rogue employees in the Cincinnati office, now haven't we?

 

[werepossum]

...and I ahven't been following this all that closely, but it seems that the party line argument here is:

dems: IRS is investigating fraudulent, or potentially fraudulent claims as non-profit organizations
repus: If this were true, then democrat-leaning organizations would be persecuted and prosecuted at the same rate!

Is that basically the current line?

My question then, and I'm sure this has already been brought up and many of you have a saved text file somewhere on your desktop with all of the relevant links, but...is it not possible that the reason there is a disproportionate amount of repub-leaning organizations in this investigation because those organizations just uh...tend to be more fraudulent?

Here comes that rate concept. I know Biff will enjoy it.

Anyway, I haven't been following this so I honestly don't know if there is substantial information involving the actual investigation (showing that it was a broad investigation, targeting 501c's with a rather blind eye), and that the results tended to favor GOP orgs as the largest offenders, and this is what creates the perception that it was targeted and politically motivated pettiness. I'm a rather cynical fella when it comes to our current political environment, so please excuse me that this is my first assumption.

You seriously want to advance the argument that the IRS stopped EVERY Republican and conservative application for almost three years because it had reason to suspect they were all fraudulent even before they began operating? Even though none of them actually have been prosecuted, so while the IRS had valid nonpartisan reasons to suspect every single Republican and conservative group applying they were simply honestly wrong about every one?

How would that differ from my contention that proggies believe everyone not adhering to the party line is inherently fraudulent? For that matter, how would you reconcile that with the IRS illegally leaking confidential tax filing information from Republican and conservative groups to progressive media attack dogs?

 

[Bowfinger]

...and I ahven't been following this all that closely, but it seems that the party line argument here is:

dems: IRS is investigating fraudulent, or potentially fraudulent claims as non-profit organizations
repus: If this were true, then democrat-leaning organizations would be persecuted and prosecuted at the same rate!

Is that basically the current line?

My question then, and I'm sure this has already been brought up and many of you have a saved text file somewhere on your desktop with all of the relevant links, but...is it not possible that the reason there is a disproportionate amount of repub-leaning organizations in this investigation because those organizations just uh...tend to be more fraudulent?

Here comes that rate concept. I know Biff will enjoy it.

Anyway, I haven't been following this so I honestly don't know if there is substantial information involving the actual investigation (showing that it was a broad investigation, targeting 501c's with a rather blind eye), and that the results tended to favor GOP orgs as the largest offenders, and this is what creates the perception that it was targeted and politically motivated pettiness. I'm a rather cynical fella when it comes to our current political environment, so please excuse me that this is my first assumption.

Yes, pretty much. The basic issue is that IRS 501(c)(4) status was established for "social welfare" organizations. This would normally include things like helping the homeless, beautifying parks, and similar non-partisan civic purposes. In fact, the law establishing 501(c)(4)s expressly states that such organizations may not be used for political purposes. The IRS chose to interpret that as limiting political activities to less than 50%, thus making qualifications subjective. Karl Rove successfully exploited this, leading to an influx of other openly political groups applying for 501(c)(4) status.

IRS employees noticed this and asked for guidance. HQ responded that such political applications should be forwarded for more thorough investigation. The result was 297 (IIRC) applications forwarded for this additional screening (as of the time the Treasury Inspector General started its investigation; I don't remember the date). These applications largely stalled at that point, eventually leading to complaints and Congressional scrutiny.

Yes, most of these applications were from right-wing groups. Contrary to repeated lies by some, however, they were NOT just right-wing groups. There were also "progressive' groups targeted, including some whose applications were denied. About a third of the apps were from groups with "Tea Party" in the name, fueling allegations that this was politically motivated. Unfortunately for the accusers, none of the investigations completed so far found any evidence of partisan intent by IRS employees.

Somewhere along the line the Department of Justice started looking into this. If some of these groups intentionally submitted fraudulent applications, lying about their political activity, they might be subject to prosecution. The DoJ reached out to the IRS to discuss, leading to the meeting reported today. We don't know what the DoJ has done since, whether they're still investigating or have dropped the matter.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

being serious we do need a decent non partisan look at this however in our current state I doubt that is possible.

 

[Bowfinger]

It appears that liberal's huge dissatisfaction with the Citizens United decision apparently sparked this witch hunt. Lerner knew full well that the the vast majority of the c4 applications were from conservative groups and apparently she willfully chose to delay approvals including using such techniques as burdening applicants with incredibly detailed information requests with extremely short compliance dates. Meanwhile she pursued enhanced punishments (over and beyond what existed) for possible "crimes" before there was ANY evidence of criminal activity. The liberal talking point that these applications represented liberal interests as well is total bullshit rationalization imo....the number was very, very limited. What Lerner did was wrong. Period.

Sorry, but much of that you pulled straight out of your ass (or, perhaps, Issa's ass). That's plagued this story from the onset, the nutter propaganda machine has spread all sorts of deliberate disinformation, as well as presenting speculation and innuendo as fact. It's like Benghazi, Act 2.

 

[Bowfinger]

You seriously want to advance the argument that the IRS stopped EVERY Republican and conservative application for almost three years because it had reason to suspect they were all fraudulent even before they began operating? Even though none of them actually have been prosecuted, so while the IRS had valid nonpartisan reasons to suspect every single Republican and conservative group applying they were simply honestly wrong about every one?

How would that differ from my contention that proggies believe everyone not adhering to the party line is inherently fraudulent? For that matter, how would you reconcile that with the IRS illegally leaking confidential tax filing information from Republican and conservative groups to progressive media attack dogs?

You're still lying. The IRS did not stop "EVERY Republican and conservative application." Period. That's blatantly false, and you know it.

 

[umbrella39]

The righties are back for more? This ought to be good!

No shit! The never ending circle jerk of inanities continues and keeps on giving like Yawngazi and now IRSzzzzz. Wake me up when Hillary is sworn in.

 

[Bowfinger]

being serious we do need a decent non partisan look at this however in our current state I doubt that is possible.

The Treasury Inspector General (TIGTA) completed one investigation and was reportedly in the process of another one (though it was supposed to be nearly complete six+ months ago, so I don't know what happened to it). Similarly, the FBI was investigating to see if any IRS employees broke any laws. Again, we don't know the status of that investigation.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Sorry, but much of that you pulled straight out of your ass (or, perhaps, Issa's ass). That's plagued this story from the onset, the nutter propaganda machine has spread all sorts of deliberate disinformation, as well as presenting speculation and innuendo as fact. It's like Benghazi, Act 2.

I was clearly speculating on a few points and qualified it as such, and then interlaced my opinions with known facts. Sorry if this somehow offends you.

 

[Bowfinger]

You haven't been following and you still felt the need to reinforce that statement by showing everyone how truly ignorant you are. Great job. Mission accomplished.

And no this was never about investigating anything. This has always been about an application process. The IRS didn't investigate anything further than what was needed to figure out what side of the political spectrum the applicant was on.

You are also still lying (or at least ignorantly parroting the Issa propaganda points).

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes, there's a lot of speculation as to motives...and as facts continue to surface, these motives will become much more clear. We've come a long, long way from 2 rogue employees in the Cincinnati office, now haven't we?

You have. Not me. Concrete takes time to set. The mind predisposed to see what it wants to see will see it. The mind that eeds certainty will invent the Spanish Inquisition the truth must be protected.

 

[Bowfinger]

I was clearly speculating on a few points and qualified it as such, interlacing my opinions with known facts. Sorry if this somehow offends you.

No sale. You might slip by with claiming some of your comments were open speculation, but even your "known facts" are mostly pure excrement.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

No sale. You might slip by with claiming some of your comments were open speculation, but even your "known facts" are mostly pure excrement.

I used the words "appears" and "apparently" to convey that I was speculating. I like to know exactly which "known facts" are "mostly pure excrement"...that is if you're willing to discuss this without being a dick.

 

[First]

I used the words "appears" and "apparently" to convey that I was speculating. I like to know exactly which "known facts" are "mostly pure excrement"...that is if you're willing to discuss this without being a dick.

"Who, me?!?!?"

 

[werepossum]

You're still lying. The IRS did not stop "EVERY Republican and conservative application." Period. That's blatantly false, and you know it.

So link us to the Republican and conservative groups whose applications were approved during the period in question, o wise one.

 

[ivwshane]

So link us to the Republican and conservative groups whose applications were approved during the period in question, o wise one.

Let's see, there were ~1700+ 501c4 apps and only ~300 were targeted, you do the math.