IRS confesses to inappropriately targeting conservative groups.

[Fern]

Well, that is a problem. The other problem then is who do you hold accountable? The lower level employees or management?

Since they claimed this was done by "lower level employees" I'd like to start by understanding exactly what "lower level employees" means. I've dealt with a lot of auditors/agents and in every case they were managed by a superior.

I have some trouble thinking those involved were unsupervised.

I have some trouble thinking those in supervisory roles weren't also supervised. This type of work is about managing case loads. I.e., their work, and progress, is going to monitored pretty far up. E.g., there is a list of pending application as of a certain date. Progress reports will be generated for higher ups detailing how many application were processed, how many are still pending and how many were processed but judged to require additional info. That the latter category was full of "TEA Party" and 'patriot" etc would be, or should, suspicious to management. Also, the effect of stringing out those right-leaning applicants would be to slow progress in the unit. This would have been, or should have been, investigated.

But until more is known I think it premature to say who should be punished and how. E.g., if we find out the lower level employees were merely doing as told I don't think they should be in trouble.

Fern

 

[michal1980]

Since they claimed this was done by "lower level employees" I'd like to start by understanding exactly what "lower level employees" means. I've dealt with a lot of auditors/agents and in every case they were managed by a superior.

I have some trouble thinking those involved were unsupervised.

I have some trouble thinking those in supervisory roles weren't also supervised. This type of work is about managing case loads. I.e., their work, and progress, is going to monitored pretty far up. E.g., there is a list of pending application as of a certain date. Progress reports will be generated for higher ups detailing how many application were processed, how many are still pending and how many were processed but judged to require additional info. That the latter category was full of "TEA Party" and 'patriot" etc would be, or should, suspicious to management. Also, the effect of stringing out those right-leaning applicants would be to slow progress in the unit. This would have been, or should have been, investigated.

But until more is known I think it premature to say who should be punished and how. E.g., if we find out the lower level employees were merely doing as told I don't think they should be in trouble.

Fern

a higher up last year went in front of congress and said none of this was happening. hmmm


I wonder how many other fed agencies targeted conservative groups under Obama.

 

[Darwin333]

Do you just read some of the posts or do you randomly select which ones you respond to? Perhaps you should read all the posts to better follow along, otherwise you just look like an ass.

Hint: someone already posted a similar response and I clarified my post for them.

Keep trying bro

I usually just randomly select them. Sorry but I am not interested enough in the political circle jerk to follow along nor put much effort into trying. I sincerely apologize if I fell short of your expectations.

 

[Bowfinger]

Simply put (I don't wish to get too technical here) if you don't get your exemption from the IRS. If you don't get your exemption you can't raise funds. If you can't raise funds you can't get your message out (or whatever your mission is).

Fern

Strictly speaking, is it that they cannot raise funds, or they cannot raise funds on a tax-exempt, anonymous basis?

 

[Bowfinger]

Since they claimed this was done by "lower level employees" I'd like to start by understanding exactly what "lower level employees" means. I've dealt with a lot of auditors/agents and in every case they were managed by a superior.

I have some trouble thinking those involved were unsupervised.

I have some trouble thinking those in supervisory roles weren't also supervised. This type of work is about managing case loads. I.e., their work, and progress, is going to monitored pretty far up. E.g., there is a list of pending application as of a certain date. Progress reports will be generated for higher ups detailing how many application were processed, how many are still pending and how many were processed but judged to require additional info. That the latter category was full of "TEA Party" and 'patriot" etc would be, or should, suspicious to management. Also, the effect of stringing out those right-leaning applicants would be to slow progress in the unit. This would have been, or should have been, investigated. ...

Fern

Based on my experiences in a number of large organizations, I would be surprised if even the first level of management got that level of detail, and certainly not the second. Yes, they would likely get reports with counts showing workload statistics, but I doubt it would give details for individual applications. That level of detail would be available, but only if the manager had a reason to seek it.

This is only speculation, of course, and it does not mean higher levels of management were not aware. It only means they wouldn't automatically be aware. In any case, I suspect the whole story will come out soon enough, and those who abused their authority for partisan reasons should be fired.

 

[Oldgamer]

Honestly, all this crap in the news over this is disgusting. The IRS is short handed, and major cut backs have been made over the years. The republicans have been looking for every opportunity to politicize anything and everything they can to drag this administration through the mud, and all they want is chaos.

No one who was a political group should have been allowed to utilize a 501C4 and hide their donors behind it, for political purposes. The IRS should have been catching anyone who was doing it. It is just that they zoned in on specific groups, and now everyone has thier dander up about it and the media and the repukes are going to milk this as much as they can.

I am going to quote this here, in case some of you don't understand the rules on a 501C4:

"The IRS needs to draw a distinction between political groups and “social welfare” groups across the spectrum. Any tax-exempt group that is organized under Section 501(c)(4) must fall into the latter category. That is, the group has to be “primarily engaged in promoting in some way the common good and general welfare of the community. That can include anything from animal-rights groups to organizations lobbying for abortion restrictions. These groups can even participate in some political actions.* But they can’t be primarily engaged in partisan politics or electioneering."

This all got started with Karl Rove when he first did this, and folks thought he was going to get hammered by the IRS and when he didn't everybody followed suit, and the 501C4's got way out of hand during the election year, on both sides. But the fact that the IRS picked out some of the Tea Party folks for "closer scrutiny" is what all the fuss is about.

This is just stupid in my opinion, because the IRS was doing their job, but half ass. They needed to be hitting everyone who was doing this and declining all the 501C4 apps for these political groups. I don't think this had anything to do with Obama, but now a days everybody who hates Obama wants to draw a direct line to him for anything and everything. It just gets ridiculous, it really does. It is just absurd the way we just carry on about all of this.

 

[brycejones]

But they aren't political groups they are public service organizations, and if you believe that would you like to buy a bridge?

 

[Oldgamer]

But they aren't political groups they are public service organizations, and if you believe that would you like to buy a bridge?

Exactly, and both the democratic and republican political groups were hiding their political donors, and I honestly think that some of those that work for the or in the IRS offices themselves may not fully understand what the rules are on 501C4's. There might have been confusion. But this is just a bunch of "spin" and bloated media BS, and it just seems like everyone want's a scandal out of nothing.

It is just like the media now getting upset about the fact that AP has had its phone numbers and records secretly monitored or reviewed over a period of time and under investigation. I mean, the government has been doing this to us (the US citizens) since the Bush days and all we get are little blips about it here and there, but no real media fuss about the loss of our privacy or any real concern or carrying on in the media about it. But NOW, now that it involves the journalists themselves, heaven forbid, now they are upset that their privacy has been invaded. Now they are realizing what WE for years have had to give up for the sake of a little "security" , right?

I dunno this country has gone to crap, it really has, and it just sickens me. I have to turn off the damn tube sometimes because it just depresses the hell out of me.

 

[monovillage]

Is there anything more fun then watching our usual progressive suspects try to justify the IRS being used as a weapon to punish political opponents of the current administration?

http://news.yahoo.com/fbi-opens-criminal-probe-u-tax-agency-audit-013827835.html

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said on Tuesday he had ordered the FBI to open a criminal probe in a growing scandal over the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative political groups for extra tax scrutiny.

It's delicious.

 

[michal1980]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/14/irs-official-lerner-approved-exemption-for-obama-brothers-charity/

Obamas brothers charity gets expedited approval for non profit status. Obama still knows nothing?

To me lib's have turned the IRS into their new weapon of choice against their opponents.

 

[Double Trouble]

Well, that is a problem. The other problem then is who do you hold accountable? The lower level employees or management?

This is really the important part of this mess. Who should be held accountable. IMO, anyone who knew about this and did not either report it to appropriate authorities or (if in a position to do so) put an immediate end to it and take remedial action should be held accountable. There's going to have to be a pretty in-depth investigation.

 

[Double Trouble]

Strictly speaking, is it that they cannot raise funds, or they cannot raise funds on a tax-exempt, anonymous basis?

Does that really matter? If indeed there were delays and/or denials, those groups were impacted in the lawful ability to raise funds like any other similar group based on their perceive political leanings. That's an extremely dangerous misuse of government power, one that has to be addressed.

 

[boomerang]

I dunno this country has gone to crap, it really has, and it just sickens me. I have to turn off the damn tube sometimes because it just depresses the hell out of me.

Are you at a point yet where you're willing to do something to turn it around? Are you at least willing to support independent candidates in the next election even though they are probably going to lose even if it only sends a message?

We're not going to get this country back to any semblance of what it once was by pulling the lever next to the "D" or the "R". The corruption is so deep and so thoroughly spread throughout the government that keeping just one of these bastards in office will perpetuate what has become the status quo. Now, there's talk of another potential scandal brewing, that being favoritism by the EPA regarding fees charged to conservative groups.

There is momentum right now. The press is waking up. We have to first learn to work together and respect our differences and recognize we have a common enemy. I hold out little hope. Our politicians have had great success pitting one against the other in this country. It has served their interests very well. Combined, we can slay an enemy we have in common that threatens our very way of life. Or, we can watch American Idol and wait for the government cheese that will eventually run out.

 

[Bowfinger]

Does that really matter? If indeed there were delays and/or denials, those groups were impacted in the lawful ability to raise funds like any other similar group based on their perceive political leanings. That's an extremely dangerous misuse of government power, one that has to be addressed.

I already said it was an abuse. I was simply trying to better understand the actual impact. Fern made a statement that I suspect may be inaccurate, and I just want to clarify. I am not a tax lawyer.

 

[HomerJS]

Since they claimed this was done by "lower level employees" I'd like to start by understanding exactly what "lower level employees" means. I've dealt with a lot of auditors/agents and in every case they were managed by a superior.

I have some trouble thinking those involved were unsupervised.

I have some trouble thinking those in supervisory roles weren't also supervised. This type of work is about managing case loads. I.e., their work, and progress, is going to monitored pretty far up. E.g., there is a list of pending application as of a certain date. Progress reports will be generated for higher ups detailing how many application were processed, how many are still pending and how many were processed but judged to require additional info. That the latter category was full of "TEA Party" and 'patriot" etc would be, or should, suspicious to management. Also, the effect of stringing out those right-leaning applicants would be to slow progress in the unit. This would have been, or should have been, investigated.

But until more is known I think it premature to say who should be punished and how. E.g., if we find out the lower level employees were merely doing as told I don't think they should be in trouble.

Fern

Since the head of the IRS at the time was a Bush apointee, its less likely the targeting came from management.

 

[HomerJS]

There is no doubt about it, they've admitted the inappropriate conduct.

As it relates to profiling, do you have any information to show that conservative non-profit groups are more likely to run afoul of non-profit regulations? Even if that were the case, the IRS is not charged with preventive screening of non-profits to prevent future issues, they are charged with collecting taxes. Your comparison doesn't hold water.

I don't get it, why do you and some others in the thread see the need to defend this action? It was clearly inappropriate, regardless of what groups were targeted.

What I'm saying is there was such a massive influx of "Tea Party" like groups it could have been a way of expiditing the pile, not "this is a way to get conservatives".

I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but most on the right don't have a problem with profiling.

 

[monovillage]

Since the head of the IRS at the time was a Bush apointee, its less likely the targeting came from management.

Since the head of the Government was an elected Democrat (Oblama), it's likely that the targeting came from the very highest level of management.

 

[Oldgamer]

Are you at a point yet where you're willing to do something to turn it around? Are you at least willing to support independent candidates in the next election even though they are probably going to lose even if it only sends a message?

We're not going to get this country back to any semblance of what it once was by pulling the lever next to the "D" or the "R". The corruption is so deep and so thoroughly spread throughout the government that keeping just one of these bastards in office will perpetuate what has become the status quo. Now, there's talk of another potential scandal brewing, that being favoritism by the EPA regarding fees charged to conservative groups.

There is momentum right now. The press is waking up. We have to first learn to work together and respect our differences and recognize we have a common enemy. I hold out little hope. Our politicians have had great success pitting one against the other in this country. It has served their interests very well. Combined, we can slay an enemy we have in common that threatens our very way of life. Or, we can watch American Idol and wait for the government cheese that will eventually run out.

yes, I have been for a long time now.. I do put my voting power to use.

I think all of this crap right now are wonderful diversions, yet again, to the important issues, such as budget, immigration reform, gun control, and other matters, and again, the media, and the public fall for it. It dominates the cable news, the local news, and its all for ratings, and its all for diversion. Again, it has been a very successful manuever by republicans to keep any type of function or any type of coherent, productive legislation happening in congress. They want chaos.. they want dysfunction and they have said as such.

I am just as irritated with the Democrats too.. because they lack any common sense or any sort of will to do the right things, its as if they are chickens, running around congress with their heads cut off. Its so amazingly stupid in congress it scares me, because I almost get the creeping feeling we are falling into a "third world" type country in the way of governmental corruption and functionality.

...and I might add, that those in congress have done a superb job of dividing us, the people here in this country. As long as we are divided, and they instill fear in us, they control us.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

yes, I have been for a long time now.. I do put my voting power to use.

Well, no. Your vote has no power. Flambeed crap or poached puke? Which sounds more appealing to you? There are two allowed sets of ideas. One is Democrat, one is Republican. All others do not exist for practical purposes. The marketplace of ideas comes down to two and two alone. Our system is so screwed that unless there is a Constitutional Convention called which addresses this there will be no significant reform or change. None. People talk about campaign reform. That's hardly the point. The choices remain the same, and that's two. If two candidates represent the ideas and values of Americans then we just need to cut to the chase and announce our form of democracy a failure and move on to something more dictatorial. At least that would be more honest.

 

[OutHouse]

Is there any evidence that this is actually true?

(I'm being charitable here.)

looks like the IRS is getting a early start.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgo...rs-raids-60-million-personal-medical-records/

 

[waggy]

looks like the IRS is getting a early start.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgo...rs-raids-60-million-personal-medical-records/

holly shit.

first i have heard of this. i would think this would be in the news too. i think this is worse then some of the other stuff.

 

[OutHouse]

holly shit.

first i have heard of this. i would think this would be in the news too. i think this is worse then some of the other stuff.

its fresh breaking news. i made its own thread about it.

 

[HomerJS]

So with all the outrage over the IRS 501 C3 problem, solution is simple. These groups were supposed to be for social welfare not for politicking. 1959 law was modified from "exclusively" to "primarily" for social welfare. That left the door open for all those Tea Party groups and Bill Burtons group to drive a truck through this loophole.

Change the law back to "exclusivly"

 

[piasabird]

People at the IRS are going to jail. Including the director.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

yes, I have been for a long time now.. I do put my voting power to use.

I think all of this crap right now are wonderful diversions, yet again, to the important issues, such as budget, immigration reform, gun control, and other matters, and again, the media, and the public fall for it. It dominates the cable news, the local news, and its all for ratings, and its all for diversion. Again, it has been a very successful manuever by republicans to keep any type of function or any type of coherent, productive legislation happening in congress. They want chaos.. they want dysfunction and they have said as such.

I am just as irritated with the Democrats too.. because they lack any common sense or any sort of will to do the right things, its as if they are chickens, running around congress with their heads cut off. Its so amazingly stupid in congress it scares me, because I almost get the creeping feeling we are falling into a "third world" type country in the way of governmental corruption and functionality.

...and I might add, that those in congress have done a superb job of dividing us, the people here in this country. As long as we are divided, and they instill fear in us, they control us.

Government corruption under the basis of raping innocent citizen rights - and you... find the important issues to be "budget, immigrant reform, and gun control"...

You're fucking retarded, you know that right?