Iraq Is A Catastrophe

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons! now for Iraq being a

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Brief. Yet pointless.

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out? C'mon, Chcikie. Stop wasting bandwidth.

Provide your incite as to why Iraq is not a catastrophe. Not a quagmire. Not a dismal failure.

Defend 1,000s of American dead and wounded. Defend 100s of billions - nee trillions - in cost.

For What, Chickie? Inquiring minds want to know . . . 😀

You have to make the case first that Iraq IS a catastrophe, quagmire, and a dismal failure. You are automatically operating on the assumption that it is when that doesn't appear to be the case at all. Stop spouting rhetoric from last year and make a case for what Iraq is now, not what it was once claimed to be. Iraq has turned the corner. If it truly were a catastrophe, quagmire, and a dismal failure that would not have been possible.

Military deaths are down
Civilian deaths are down
Former insurgents are aligning with US forces and hunting down AQI
There is ongoing reconciliation between Sunni and Shia
Patraeus has been meeting with representatives of Sadr to bring them into the fold


All the doom and gloom predictions from the anti-war crew have consistently FAILED to come to fruition. The best you can do is focus on the military deaths and money spent (as if people don't die in wars and they aren't expensive) and expect some sort of immediate gratification for those? Stop being ignorant. Anyone with the least bit of sense understands that Iraq is a long-term project that won't produce benefits for the US and the RoTW for some time to come.

So let's see you make your case now that Iraq is a catastrophe, quagmire, and a dismal failure, Boobie.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
I am not contesting that Iraq is a huge disaster. I apparently didn't clearly state my point. I'm not sure, however, how effective it is to continually bring up how much we've messed up or how the war is 'illegal' or how the Bush Administration lied to all of us.

Granted. I agree. Let's move on and figure out a solution instead of continuing to tally our mistakes.

I don't accept "pull out completely" as a solution. "Let's let the Iraqis sort it out" is the sort of selfishness that will completely decimate our image abroad, as well as allowing Iraq to cement itself as a stronghold for chaos, terror and dictatorship.

Yeah, we messed up, so let's finally do something right and establish a serious government with serious infrastructure and serious capabilities that allow us to extract. That requires more focus on government and less focus on military.

1. Why ignore the fact that the US is led by war criminals? How can the US have any legitimacy domestically and in the world (like in Iraq) as long as that remains a fact?

2. Foreign occupation forces cannot "establish a serious government". Any attempt at doing so lacks credibility. Any real government has to come from the Iraqis themselves. That the Iraqis remain so far from being able to form a credible government only underscores the depth of the disaster this invasion is.

3. The only real way forward for the US out of this mess is to reestablish US credibility and respect for the law. The US must hold those responsible for the invasion accountable, subordinate all US forces in Iraq to UN leadership, and let a UN led diplomatic task force lead the way to an eventual Iraqi government rooted in the will of the Iraqi people. The US must also of course pay a trillion or so dollars (or a set amount of gold) in war reparations to the suffering Iraqi people so they can rebuild their nation. If the US is prepared to let the war cost that much they can bloody well pay that to the Iraqis.

But of course the US is not mature enough to face the consequences of it's actions like this.

 

[piasabird]

I dont think there is a civil war going on in Iraq. That is all Propaganda.

I dont much like the ware in Iraq and I dont think we should have got involved either. I think even if we leave Iraq they will still need to have an influx of money and arms and ammunition similar to after the end of the war in South Korea. I would guess a slow drawdown of troops is a logical conclusion to the situation.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: GrGr
1. Why ignore the fact that the US is led by war criminals? How can the US have any legitimacy domestically and in the world (like in Iraq) as long as that remains a fact?

Who's ignoring? But until the US joins the ICC, we can't do shit about shit.

2. Foreign occupation forces cannot "establish a serious government". Any attempt at doing so lacks credibility. Any real government has to come from the Iraqis themselves. That the Iraqis remain so far from being able to form a credible government only underscores the depth of the disaster this invasion is.

I agree that forceful regime change is a fruitless endeavor. Unfortunately, it's what we've got on our plate, so we need to deal with it as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

3. The only real way forward for the US out of this mess is to reestablish US credibility and respect for the law. The US must hold those responsible for the invasion accountable, subordinate all US forces in Iraq to UN leadership, and let a UN led diplomatic task force lead the way to an eventual Iraqi government rooted in the will of the Iraqi people. The US must also of course pay a trillion or so dollars (or a set amount of gold) in war reparations to the suffering Iraqi people so they can rebuild their nation. If the US is prepared to let the war cost that much they can bloody well pay that to the Iraqis.

But of course the US is not mature enough to face the consequences of it's actions like this.

I agree with you for the third time in one post.

Too bad the OP had nothing to do with this. It was more about gloating over US failures in Iraq. Not too helpful.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

I agree with you that both 9/11 and the war are played to death. The difference is that 9/11 was one day; the war has been going on for four and a half years with no end in sight. You can raise opposition to 9/11 all you want, but you'll never erase that day from history. But we do have the power to change the ongoing war. If we are silent, it is tacit approval of a course which polls show the majority of Americans disagree with.

So while it may seem like the war is being beaten to death, it is that very inundation that will make the will of the people known (even if the administration refuses to listen).

 

[teclis1023]

So what's your solution? Can anyone give me a real solution that takes into account Iraq's future as a stable nation?

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Should we stop talking about genocide in Sudan as well?

Terro and 9/11 were used as fear.. iraq is an ongoing occupation of massive failings... It took a long time to get out of Vietnam and this is the same.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Dissent is fine with actual arguments and reasoning...

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons! now for Iraq being a

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Brief. Yet pointless.

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out? C'mon, Chcikie. Stop wasting bandwidth.

Provide your incite as to why Iraq is not a catastrophe. Not a quagmire. Not a dismal failure.

Defend 1,000s of American dead and wounded. Defend 100s of billions - nee trillions - in cost.

For What, Chickie? Inquiring minds want to know . . . 😀

You have to make the case first that Iraq IS a catastrophe, quagmire, and a dismal failure. You are automatically operating on the assumption that it is when that doesn't appear to be the case at all. Stop spouting rhetoric from last year and make a case for what Iraq is now, not what it was once claimed to be. Iraq has turned the corner. If it truly were a catastrophe, quagmire, and a dismal failure that would not have been possible.

Military deaths are down
Civilian deaths are down
Former insurgents are aligning with US forces and hunting down AQI
There is ongoing reconciliation between Sunni and Shia
Patraeus has been meeting with representatives of Sadr to bring them into the fold


All the doom and gloom predictions from the anti-war crew have consistently FAILED to come to fruition. The best you can do is focus on the military deaths and money spent (as if people don't die in wars and they aren't expensive) and expect some sort of immediate gratification for those? Stop being ignorant. Anyone with the least bit of sense understands that Iraq is a long-term project that won't produce benefits for the US and the RoTW for some time to come.

So let's see you make your case now that Iraq is a catastrophe, quagmire, and a dismal failure, Boobie.

To be down from a high is nothing special... Hoping is great.. it hasn't worked in 4 years though. Time to be realistic.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Should we stop talking about genocide in Sudan as well?

The Darfur tragedy has barely been discussed at all, much less over-talked.

Terro and 9/11 were used as fear.. iraq is an ongoing occupation of massive failings... It took a long time to get out of Vietnam and this is the same.

Again, I'm all for talking about solutions. I'm not for continuing to beating dead horses about whether the war is illegal, whether Bush is a war criminal, or whether we are doing well in Iraq.

Again, more solutions, less complaining. I haven't seen the Dems do anything to fix the situation. I've just seen a lot of liberal whining and conservative stubbornness.

Everyone's taken their eye off the prize, contenting themselves to feel smugly self-important by continuing to point out death tolls, failed plans and calling Bush our "Traitor in Chief". You hate the war? So does the rest of America, and the world. Let's fix it.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Dissent is fine with actual arguments and reasoning...

I agree. So when are you going to provide any?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Okay, I hear Iraq is a Catastrophe. A Quagmire. A Dismal failure.

Well, it's either true, or it's propaganda.

You answered your own question.

*waves hand in a vagely Jedi-like fashion* Everything's going fine in Iraq, and has been for years. This isn't the quagmire you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

*waves hand in a vagely Jedi-like fashion* Everything's going fine in Iraq, and has been for years. This isn't the quagmire you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

You mean Jewdi

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Iraq is a war that is going to end by a pullout of troops when enough have been killed, the society will be much like Afghanistan was in the late 90's and radical Islam and terrorist organizations will have their training grounds with millions of willing participants.

Either that or the US stays and fights this war for about 30 years with yearly casualties of hundreds, maybe even thousands and acts like the hero they portray themselves as.

Standing up for your mistakes is required, to leave others to deal with your mess isn't going to do anything good, the US can win this but it will take decades.

And no, to proclaim "i didn't vote for him" doesn't help in a representative democracy.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

I agree with Jaskalas below and one for everyday Neocons are still free and not behind bars

Especially the ones who claimed Iraq would pay for the war and that we would be greeted with Roses at our feet.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I disagree, until people stop dying as a direct result of the "war", it will be more than simple verbiage.

But in our political landscape, it has become nothing more than political verbage...Bush's ratings are in the toilet, and the NeoCons are on the retreat...their propoganda is essentially dead...yet we still cannot reach a consensus on what to do now...perhaps because the anti-war crowd is too busy demonizing Bush still.

Yeah, the "anit-war" crowd is serving up shit.

No, you just happen to like your own...doesn't change what it is...the rhetoric coming out of the anti-war camp is starting to approximate the nonsense coming out of the NeoCon camp...just look at all the recent circle jerk threads on this very topic...no new talking points...same people bickering back and forth.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Dissent is fine with actual arguments and reasoning...

I agree. So when are you going to provide any?

I already stated my opinions elsewhere. I am referring, as you already know to your trolling remarks, which weren't actual discussion.. just attacks and innuendo... Don't be mad at me for pointing it out.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

I disagree, until people stop dying as a direct result of the "war", it will be more than simple verbiage.

But in our political landscape, it has become nothing more than political verbage...Bush's ratings are in the toilet, and the NeoCons are on the retreat...their propoganda is essentially dead...yet we still cannot reach a consensus on what to do now...perhaps because the anti-war crowd is too busy demonizing Bush still.

Yeah, the "anit-war" crowd is serving up shit.

No, you just happen to like your own...doesn't change what it is...the rhetoric coming out of the anti-war camp is starting to approximate the nonsense coming out of the NeoCon camp...just look at all the recent circle jerk threads on this very topic...no new talking points...same people bickering back and forth.

Well. things will come to a head when Bush leaves office. If Rudy or Thompson gets in, we can expect more of the same, or worse. If Hillary gets in, she'll probably keep us stuck there as well, but it will make her so hugely unpopular amongst her base (and the majority of Americans who don't want to stay there indefinitely with no clear and attainable goal), that she'll be a one-termer. Think of it this way, if Bill was the Reagan of the Democrats, then Hillary is the GHWB.

Whoever wins, loses, because we're due for a severe economic 'correction', at best. Whomever sits in the Oval Office will take the heat for that.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Dissent is fine with actual arguments and reasoning...

I agree. So when are you going to provide any?

I already stated my opinions elsewhere. I am referring, as you already know to your trolling remarks, which weren't actual discussion.. just attacks and innuendo... Don't be mad at me for pointing it out.

I'm not mad. I'm just pointing out the complete ironic idiocy of your remark, that's all. Don't get angry at me for doing that.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

I disagree, until people stop dying as a direct result of the "war", it will be more than simple verbiage.

But in our political landscape, it has become nothing more than political verbage...Bush's ratings are in the toilet, and the NeoCons are on the retreat...their propoganda is essentially dead...yet we still cannot reach a consensus on what to do now...perhaps because the anti-war crowd is too busy demonizing Bush still.

Yeah, the "anit-war" crowd is serving up shit.

No, you just happen to like your own...doesn't change what it is...the rhetoric coming out of the anti-war camp is starting to approximate the nonsense coming out of the NeoCon camp...just look at all the recent circle jerk threads on this very topic...no new talking points...same people bickering back and forth.

Each and every one of the Generals could tell you what you should do now, one of two things.

1. Engage three times the current force and wipe out all opposition, ALL opposition, all deployed until there is not one enemy standing.

2. Establish a permanent force to deal with the day to day problems while letting the Iraqis themselves handle most of it, a few strike teams to take care of immediate problems and pretty much constant fly overs to detect and observe and on occasion bomb, the strike teams will need air support in the form of choppers and ground support in the form of tanks, all of these should be under the command of the permanent force.

No one wants to face it but that's the two options there are, leaving and letting it fall into the hands of terrorist organisations isn't an option.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Should we stop talking about genocide in Sudan as well?

The Darfur tragedy has barely been discussed at all, much less over-talked.

Terro and 9/11 were used as fear.. iraq is an ongoing occupation of massive failings... It took a long time to get out of Vietnam and this is the same.

Again, I'm all for talking about solutions. I'm not for continuing to beating dead horses about whether the war is illegal, whether Bush is a war criminal, or whether we are doing well in Iraq.

Again, more solutions, less complaining. I haven't seen the Dems do anything to fix the situation. I've just seen a lot of liberal whining and conservative stubbornness.

Everyone's taken their eye off the prize, contenting themselves to feel smugly self-important by continuing to point out death tolls, failed plans and calling Bush our "Traitor in Chief". You hate the war? So does the rest of America, and the world. Let's fix it.

If anything, solutions have been provided thousands of times here.. but they are ignored among the political nonsense and by the people who think any solution that isn't to continue to do the same thing we are doing is wrong.

Why keep repeating our solutions when no one listens or cares? Therefore, we must keep repeating how bad things are .. and over time(remember vietnam) people will get fed up enough to demand from the government a retreat instead of a viable solution... which would be fine with us.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Should we stop talking about genocide in Sudan as well?

The Darfur tragedy has barely been discussed at all, much less over-talked.

Terro and 9/11 were used as fear.. iraq is an ongoing occupation of massive failings... It took a long time to get out of Vietnam and this is the same.

Again, I'm all for talking about solutions. I'm not for continuing to beating dead horses about whether the war is illegal, whether Bush is a war criminal, or whether we are doing well in Iraq.

Again, more solutions, less complaining. I haven't seen the Dems do anything to fix the situation. I've just seen a lot of liberal whining and conservative stubbornness.

Everyone's taken their eye off the prize, contenting themselves to feel smugly self-important by continuing to point out death tolls, failed plans and calling Bush our "Traitor in Chief". You hate the war? So does the rest of America, and the world. Let's fix it.

If anything, solutions have been provided thousands of times here.. but they are ignored among the political nonsense and by the people who think any solution that isn't to continue to do the same thing we are doing is wrong.

Why keep repeating our solutions when no one listens or cares? Therefore, we must keep repeating how bad things are .. and over time(remember vietnam) people will get fed up enough to demand from the government a retreat instead of a viable solution... which would be fine with us.

This isn't Vietnam and what went there doesn't go here, it's not WWII either and what went there doesn't go here either.

Stop comparing it to something other than what it is.

No disrespect to those who fought in Vietnam intended, none what so ever and your experiences are very worthwhile to listen to, the politics surrounding that war though... is not.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

I disagree, until people stop dying as a direct result of the "war", it will be more than simple verbiage.

But in our political landscape, it has become nothing more than political verbage...Bush's ratings are in the toilet, and the NeoCons are on the retreat...their propoganda is essentially dead...yet we still cannot reach a consensus on what to do now...perhaps because the anti-war crowd is too busy demonizing Bush still.

Yeah, the "anit-war" crowd is serving up shit.

No, you just happen to like your own...doesn't change what it is...the rhetoric coming out of the anti-war camp is starting to approximate the nonsense coming out of the NeoCon camp...just look at all the recent circle jerk threads on this very topic...no new talking points...same people bickering back and forth.

Each and every one of the Generals could tell you what you should do now, one of two things.

1. Engage three times the current force and wipe out all opposition, ALL opposition, all deployed until there is not one enemy standing.

2. Establish a permanent force to deal with the day to day problems while letting the Iraqis themselves handle most of it, a few strike teams to take care of immediate problems and pretty much constant fly overs to detect and observe and on occasion bomb, the strike teams will need air support in the form of choppers and ground support in the form of tanks, all of these should be under the command of the permanent force.

No one wants to face it but that's the two options there are, leaving and letting it fall into the hands of terrorist organisations isn't an option.

I think partitioning Iraq into an Iraqi alliance with three self-governing Iraqi states is the only realistic long-term solution, along with a solid defense plan. The centuries of hatred and strife are not going to be solved by even a 50-year commitment by an outside force. The border lines of Iraq were drawn somewhat arbitrarily anyway. Back in the days when most tribesmen would die within miles of where they were born, this wasn't a problem. In today's integrated society, it's a severe issue.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Should we stop talking about genocide in Sudan as well?

The Darfur tragedy has barely been discussed at all, much less over-talked.

Terro and 9/11 were used as fear.. iraq is an ongoing occupation of massive failings... It took a long time to get out of Vietnam and this is the same.

Again, I'm all for talking about solutions. I'm not for continuing to beating dead horses about whether the war is illegal, whether Bush is a war criminal, or whether we are doing well in Iraq.

Again, more solutions, less complaining. I haven't seen the Dems do anything to fix the situation. I've just seen a lot of liberal whining and conservative stubbornness.

Everyone's taken their eye off the prize, contenting themselves to feel smugly self-important by continuing to point out death tolls, failed plans and calling Bush our "Traitor in Chief". You hate the war? So does the rest of America, and the world. Let's fix it.

If anything, solutions have been provided thousands of times here.. but they are ignored among the political nonsense and by the people who think any solution that isn't to continue to do the same thing we are doing is wrong.

Why keep repeating our solutions when no one listens or cares? Therefore, we must keep repeating how bad things are .. and over time(remember vietnam) people will get fed up enough to demand from the government a retreat instead of a viable solution... which would be fine with us.

That's just daft, you want a repeat of what happened in Madrid, London and NY? You'll get ten times worse if you leave Iraq now and allow it to become a growing ground for terrorist organisations, this war shouldn't have been fought but it's to fucking late for that now, now the war has to end with peace and stability, pulling out in the middle of it isn't going to do anything more than terrorists (who were not even there to begin with) declaring victory and setting up a HUGE terrorist camp right there.

You don't stop fighting until you're done, that was the big mistake about Vietnam and Korea, you can't fight shit half arsed, you need to fight it or not and when you've started the war, you have to finish it.

It'll be like Vietnam alright, the battles are won by brave men but the war is lost by gutless politicians who don't have the guts to do what needs to be done.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

It'll be like Vietnam alright, the battles are won by brave men but the war is lost by gutless politicians who don't have the guts to do what needs to be done.

Probably the best thing you have ever posted here.