Iraq Is A Catastrophe

[Ozoned]

Okay, I hear Iraq is a Catastrophe. A Quagmire. A Dismal failure.

Well, it's either true, or it's propoganda.

I would like to construct a list of things that would support one of these 3 views. Make a valid, factually supported point, that can't be refuted, and I will add it to the list.

Could make for some interesting debate, if you are up to it.

I will start it off with a no brainer for the quagmire category. We are doing this with borrowed money.
Catastrophe


Quagmire
Paying for war with borrowed money.



A Dismal failure

 

[Capitalizt]

Catastrophe:

Soldiers are committing suicide at 2-4X the rate of civilians the same age. We have 4,300 "official" dead from the wars, and many more uncounted casualties:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2118229&enterthread=y


Quagmire:

There is a civil war going on in Iraq, and our boys are stuck in the middle of it.

Dismal failure:

See above.

 

[seemingly random]

A Dismal failure
If possible to discuss this without partisan crap, I would like to know why we there: wmds? liberate the citizens from a vicious dictator? oil? bring 'balance' to the region? retribution for harboring terrorists? install democracy in the country/region? squelch other religions in favor of christianity?

Seriously, can't rate it until the mission is known.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
A Dismal failure
If possible to discuss this without partisan crap, I would like to know why we there: wmds? liberate the citizens from a vicious dictator? oil? bring 'balance' to the region? retribution for harboring terrorists? install democracy in the country/region? squelch other religions in favor of christianity?

Seriously, can't rate it until the mission is known.

What about whether or not the mission was even valid? If the mission was anything but "finding the terrorists who attacked the USA" then it isn't valid.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Okay, I hear Iraq is a Catastrophe. A Quagmire. A Dismal failure.

Well, it's either true, or it's propaganda.

You answered your own question.

 

[heyheybooboo]

2003 -- Catastrophe
2004 -- Dismal Failure
2005 -- Dismal Failure
2006 -- Catastrophe
2007 -- Quagmire

2008 -- Quagmire, Catastrophe & Dismal Failure
(i.e., the 'South Korea Model' sucks, over 100k troops still in theatre, Kurdistan issues still loom, political stalemate continues in Iraq and Bush has suceeded in 'kicking the can' (of worms) to the next president)

 

[teclis1023]

Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Okay, I hear Iraq is a Catastrophe. A Quagmire. A Dismal failure.

Well, it's either true, or it's propaganda.

You answered your own question.

And you haven't answered any questions. Your propaganda permeates this board. Lay some more of that 'truthiness' on us in defense of the indefensible.

I guess that whole 'accountability' vision thing is difficult for you, Pabs. Personal smears, manipulation, obfuscation and fallacy are much more to your liking.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

One for every day our soldiers are in Iraq?

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

They need to fall in line for the shit the anti-war crowd is serving up instead?

 

[Jaskalas]

I?ve got one.

Catastrophe: Replacing Saddam with an Iranian style ?Democracy?. Something, once realized, I oppose the results of.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

They need to fall in line for the shit the anti-war crowd is serving up instead?

No...? It's called "critical thinking". Stop thinking in black and white.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

They need to fall in line for the shit the anti-war crowd is serving up instead?

No...? It's called "critical thinking". Stop thinking in black and white.

Critical thinking? By people who are still spouting the catastrophe, quagmire, disaster, civil war, Iranian theocracy propaganda?

Hahahaha. That's rich.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
I?ve got one.

Catastrophe: Replacing Saddam with an Iranian style ?Democracy?. Something, once realized, I oppose the results of.

I agree. Shiah Iran + Iraq can only destabilize the region with ambitions of conquering Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem and Cairo. But having said that, the Sauds need to go before a lasting peace can be achieved. It's going to me many years before the arabs and persians can realize they will achieve nothing by fighting amongst themselves.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

I disagree, until people stop dying as a direct result of the "war", it will be more than simple verbiage.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

They need to fall in line for the shit the anti-war crowd is serving up instead?

No...? It's called "critical thinking". Stop thinking in black and white.

Critical thinking? By people who are still spouting the catastrophe, quagmire, disaster, civil war, Iranian theocracy propaganda?

Hahahaha. That's rich.

Mmmm. I wouldn't expect any better from you, anyway, TLC.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Honestly, how many threads and discussions can we continue to bring up about how Iraq is a disaster?

As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

They need to fall in line for the shit the anti-war crowd is serving up instead?

:roll: Yeah, the "anit-war" crowd is serving up shit.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: manowar821
As many as it takes until the fall-in-line masses stop believing the shit the administration tries to force feed them.

When one group of people continues to rag on an issue day-in and day-out, it stops becoming effective, and begins to get drowned out. People stop paying attention to the issues and start hating the messenger. It's the same reason that people ridicule the Republicans for continuing to basically yell "9/11! 9/11! Terror! 9/11!"

9/11 and Iraq have been played to death; they're just talking points now, more verbiage to throw around in the political mudslinging that we've reduced ourselves to.

Nahhhh . . . NOT played to death

When you fight through the BS there is excellent food for thought. While I don't necessarily agree with Beanie a great deal of the time he has rightfully interjected the point of arab/persian infighting.

It interesting that Pabs and Chickie interject the BS without making any true contribution. If they don't like the thread they don't have to comment. It's that simple. Thank you.

No ones speaks of the Article 140 vote in Kurdistan. Only recently has the cross-border terrorism between the PPK and Turkey had any depth of discussion. Wow. People have been discussing this for years. Just because it's not a daily thread does not remove its existence as a problem.

We haven't discussed the failures of US ""de-Baathification"" process and the subsequent ""re-Baathification"" which has failed miserably again. Way to go, NeoCons!

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out?

Why don't we let the Iraqi's utilize their natural resources to their own 100% benefit as opposed to extorting 70% of their wealth through PSAs?

All reasonable issues for discussion - - - not 'played'

Translation: If you aren't willing to spout our anti-war propaganda then STFU. Dissent from our BS will not be tolerated!

Brief. Yet pointless.

Why don't we redeploy? Why don't we simply let the Iraqis sort it out? C'mon, Chcikie. Stop wasting bandwidth.

Provide your incite as to why Iraq is not a catastrophe. Not a quagmire. Not a dismal failure.

Defend 1,000s of American dead and wounded. Defend 100s of billions - nee trillions - in cost.

For What, Chickie? Inquiring minds want to know . . .

 

[teclis1023]

I am not contesting that Iraq is a huge disaster. I apparently didn't clearly state my point. I'm not sure, however, how effective it is to continually bring up how much we've messed up or how the war is 'illegal' or how the Bush Administration lied to all of us.

Granted. I agree. Let's move on and figure out a solution instead of continuing to tally our mistakes.

I don't accept "pull out completely" as a solution. "Let's let the Iraqis sort it out" is the sort of selfishness that will completely decimate our image abroad, as well as allowing Iraq to cement itself as a stronghold for chaos, terror and dictatorship.

Yeah, we messed up, so let's finally do something right and establish a serious government with serious infrastructure and serious capabilities that allow us to extract. That requires more focus on government and less focus on military.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
I am not contesting that Iraq is a huge disaster. I apparently didn't clearly state my point. I'm not sure, however, how effective it is to continually bring up how much we've messed up or how the war is 'illegal' or how the Bush Administration lied to all of us.

Granted. I agree. Let's move on and figure out a solution instead of continuing to tally our mistakes.

I don't accept "pull out completely" as a solution. "Let's let the Iraqis sort it out" is the sort of selfishness that will completely decimate our image abroad, as well as allowing Iraq to cement itself as a stronghold for chaos, terror and dictatorship.

Yeah, we messed up, so let's finally do something right and establish a serious government with serious infrastructure and serious capabilities that allow us to extract. That requires more focus on government and less focus on military.

I agree. I do however think it's important to point out mistakes so that they aren't repeated, but beating a dead horse isn't exactly going to solve anything.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: manowar821
I agree. I do however think it's important to point out mistakes so that they aren't repeated, but beating a dead horse isn't exactly going to solve anything.

Exactly my point. Recognizing and learning from our mistakes is a positive. Flogging a dead horse just makes people look petty.

I want progress in the form of a sustainable, realistic solution that takes into consideration the future of Iraq, the US, our foreign image, the stability of the region, education, infrastructure, etc.

"Troop Surge" and "Pull out now" hardly qualify as solutions.

Should we be there? No.
Are we there? Yes.

Can't fix the past. Forward is the only way to go.