Iraq Exit Strategy; Divide It in Thirds

Witling

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Jul 30, 2003
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The following opinion appeared in the November 25, 2003, New York Times. It suggests that the best solution (for us) is to divide Iraq into Kurdish, Suni, and Shiite portions. It also discusses how the U.S. should deal with these portions and what the eventual outcome might be. The original article is available at the NYT site behind a subscription wall.

My personal opinion is that the U.S. does not have the ability, skills, resources, or interest to administer Iraq. I do not think that all the Western powers together could do it. OK, we've (stupidly and despite warnings that this would happen) stepped into this mess pretty much by ourselves. In my opinion, the alternatives to this plan are to either simply leave (probably a de facto adoption of the plan) or continue dying for the next X years. So much for bringing democracy to Iraq. If the U.S. can establish a representative government in Iraq, I'll vote Republican in one national election.

The Three-State Solution By LESLIE H. GELB

Published: November 25, 2003 in the New York Times

President Bush's new strategy of transferring power quickly to Iraqis, and his critics' alternatives, share a fundamental flaw: all commit the United States to a unified Iraq, artificially and fatefully made whole from three distinct ethnic and sectarian communities. That has been possible in the past only by the application of overwhelming and brutal force.
President Bush wants to hold Iraq together by conducting democratic elections countrywide. But by his daily reassurances to the contrary, he only fans devastating rumors of an American pullout. Meanwhile, influential senators have called for more and better American troops to defeat the insurgency. Yet neither the White House nor Congress is likely to approve sending more troops.
And then there is the plea, mostly from outside the United States government, to internationalize the occupation of Iraq. The moment for multilateralism, however, may already have passed. Even the United Nations shudders at such a nightmarish responsibility.
The only viable strategy, then, may be to correct the historical defect and move in stages toward a three-state solution: Kurds in the north, Sunnis in the center and Shiites in the south.
Almost immediately, this would allow America to put most of its money and troops where they would do the most good quickly ? with the Kurds and Shiites. The United States could extricate most of its forces from the so-called Sunni Triangle, north and west of Baghdad, largely freeing American forces from fighting a costly war they might not win. American officials could then wait for the troublesome and domineering Sunnis, without oil or oil revenues, to moderate their ambitions or suffer the consequences.
This three-state solution has been unthinkable in Washington for decades. After the Iranian revolution in 1979, a united Iraq was thought necessary to counter an anti-American Iran. Since the gulf war in 1991, a whole Iraq was deemed essential to preventing neighbors like Turkey, Syria and Iran from picking at the pieces and igniting wider wars.
But times have changed. The Kurds have largely been autonomous for years, and Ankara has lived with that. So long as the Kurds don't move precipitously toward statehood or incite insurgencies in Turkey or Iran, these neighbors will accept their autonomy. It is true that a Shiite self-governing region could become a theocratic state or fall into an Iranian embrace. But for now, neither possibility seems likely.
There is a hopeful precedent for a three-state strategy: Yugoslavia after World War II. In 1946, Marshal Tito pulled together highly disparate ethnic groups into a united Yugoslavia. A Croat himself, he ruled the country from Belgrade among the majority and historically dominant Serbs. Through clever politics and personality, Tito kept the peace peacefully.
When Tito died in 1980, several parts of Yugoslavia quickly declared their independence. The Serbs, with superior armed forces and the arrogance of traditional rulers, struck brutally against Bosnian Muslims and Croats.
Europeans and Americans protested but ? stunningly and unforgivably ? did little at first to prevent the violence. Eventually they gave the Bosnian Muslims and Croats the means to fight back, and the Serbs accepted separation. Later, when Albanians in the Serb province of Kosovo rebelled against their cruel masters, the United States and Europe had to intervene again. The result there will be either autonomy or statehood for Kosovo.
The lesson is obvious: overwhelming force was the best chance for keeping Yugoslavia whole, and even that failed in the end. Meantime, the costs of preventing the natural states from emerging had been terrible.
The ancestors of today's Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds have been in Mesopotamia since before modern history. The Shiites there, unlike Shiites elsewhere in the Arab world, are a majority. The Sunnis of the region gravitate toward pan-Arabism. The non-Arab Kurds speak their own language and have always fed their own nationalism.

(Page 2 of 2)

The Ottomans ruled all the peoples of this land as they were: separately. In 1921, Winston Churchill cobbled the three parts together for oil's sake under a monarch backed by British armed forces. The Baathist Party took over in the 1960's, with Saddam Hussein consolidating its control in 1979, maintaining unity through terror and with occasional American help.
Today, the Sunnis have a far greater stake in a united Iraq than either the Kurds or the Shiites. Central Iraq is largely without oil, and without oil revenues, the Sunnis would soon become poor cousins.
The Shiites might like a united Iraq if they controlled it ? which they could if those elections Mr. Bush keeps promising ever occur. But the Kurds and Sunnis are unlikely to accept Shiite control, no matter how democratically achieved. The Kurds have the least interest in any strong central authority, which has never been good for them.
A strategy of breaking up Iraq and moving toward a three-state solution would build on these realities. The general idea is to strengthen the Kurds and Shiites and weaken the Sunnis, then wait and see whether to stop at autonomy or encourage statehood.
The first step would be to make the north and south into self-governing regions, with boundaries drawn as closely as possible along ethnic lines. Give the Kurds and Shiites the bulk of the billions of dollars voted by Congress for reconstruction. In return, require democratic elections within each region, and protections for women, minorities and the news media.
Second and at the same time, draw down American troops in the Sunni Triangle and ask the United Nations to oversee the transition to self-government there. This might take six to nine months; without power and money, the Sunnis may cause trouble.
For example, they might punish the substantial minorities left in the center, particularly the large Kurdish and Shiite populations in Baghdad. These minorities must have the time and the wherewithal to organize and make their deals, or go either north or south. This would be a messy and dangerous enterprise, but the United States would and should pay for the population movements and protect the process with force.
The Sunnis could also ignite insurgencies in the Kurdish and Shiite regions. To counter this, the United States would already have redeployed most of its troops north and south of the Sunni Triangle, where they could help arm and train the Kurds and Shiites, if asked.
The third part of the strategy would revolve around regional diplomacy. All the parties will suspect the worst of one another ? not without reason. They will all need assurances about security. And if the three self-governing regions were to be given statehood, it should be done only with the consent of their neighbors. The Sunnis might surprise and behave well, thus making possible a single and loose confederation. Or maybe they would all have to live with simple autonomy, much as Taiwan does with respect to China.
For decades, the United States has worshiped at the altar of a unified yet unnatural Iraqi state. Allowing all three communities within that false state to emerge at least as self-governing regions would be both difficult and dangerous. Washington would have to be very hard-headed, and hard-hearted, to engineer this breakup. But such a course is manageable, even necessary, because it would allow us to find Iraq's future in its denied but natural past.

Leslie H. Gelb, a former editor and columnist for The Times, is president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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We are going to destroy Iraq and it's people. Machiavelli said the population of a country was needed to extract the country?s wealth and no business will invest during turmoil. Iraqis don't like us. The only solution to the problem is to elimiate the population.. I see we are taking steps by dividing. After a few more months of resistance the american people will be prepared for serious draconian measures to hunt down the "terrorists".
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
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My personal opinion is that the U.S. does not have the ability, skills, resources, or interest to administer Iraq.

of course we're not going to have the ability or interest to make this work if we listen to the libs views and get the heck outta there! we need to be in it for the long haul and do the job PROPERLY. no matter the cost. the people that are over there doing the dirty work know this [i have several friends in the Army and they tell me they leave when the job is done] and they also know they volunteered to be in the Army.

It suggests that the best solution (for us) is to divide Iraq into Kurdish, Suni, and Shiite portions.

i was under the impression that something like this was already in effect. the Brits control one sector [its nice and quiet there i hear, not a whole lot of violence] then the US controls one sector [a ton of violence, i think we got the hardest region to try and bring stability to] and then i really dont know who controls the 3rd sector, but they also have it nice and quiet there. maybe we should get the Brits to give us a hand in getting our sector under control...?
 

Witling

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Jul 30, 2003
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Genesys, it's not like it the liberal position was unknown before the war. It, like the opinion of most of the rest of the world, should have been considered in crafting the plan. We're starting to be attacked in the northern sector and the British (and Spanish) are being attacked in the southern sector. This will grow. It will not be quelled. Fortunately you'll have liberals to blame instead of admitting that the administration screwed up big time.
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Genesys, it's not like it the liberal position was unknown before the war. It, like the opinion of most of the rest of the world, should have been considered in crafting the plan. We're starting to be attacked in the northern sector and the British (and Spanish) are being attacked in the southern sector. This will grow. It will not be quelled. Fortunately you'll have liberals to blame instead of admitting that the administration screwed up big time.


your a real subtle propagandist whitling, i bet you may even beleive some of that.

the fact is the majority of the iraqi people who want us there, but i get my information from many soldiers who have been over there instead of the media, the two views often conflict.(i live at Fort Hood BTW where most of 4th id and 1st cav is based)

if we pull out saddam will come back in power with help from the other baath socialist state syria, that much is assured, then all the blood spilled and coalition dead will be for nothing, a sacrifice in vain.

the strong lib/dem push against the war did not start until they lost the senate in 2002, the timing seems tome much more than co-incedence, now it is mere politics lets look at the past shall we?

this is from another post i made:

the simple fact is concerning iraq bush picked up right where clinton left off. clinton and the dems were just as convinced as he was by the same evidence, that is until the dems lost the senate in 2002, at which time hypocrites like daschle and pelosi did a 180 not because of evidence, but for political purposes. here we start with clinton.

here clinton describes saddam playing the same game with him as he later did with bush in the exact same way he had been doing it for a DECADE.

"Iraq repeatedly blocked UNSCOM from inspecting suspect sites. For example, it shut off access to the headquarters of its ruling party and said it will deny access to the party's other offices, even though U.N. resolutions make no exception for them and UNSCOM has inspected them in the past. Iraq repeatedly restricted UNSCOM's ability to obtain necessary evidence. For example, Iraq obstructed UNSCOM's effort to photograph bombs related to its chemical weapons program. It tried to stop an UNSCOM biological weapons team from videotaping a site and photocopying documents and prevented Iraqi personnel from answering UNSCOM's questions. Prior to the inspection of another site, Iraq actually emptied out the building, removing not just documents but even the furniture and the equipment."~bill clinton adress to the nation 1998 after attacking iraq.


now zip ahead a 4 years bush is threating saddam with military action if he does not co-operate FULLY defined the EXACT same way clinton did...what happens? the same old thing he has been doing. stalling and obstructing...stalling while trucks laod (powell actually showed film of this happening) but of course with nothing to hide like say...mobile chem labs and a 40 acre hidden chemical complex....


this is VERY interesting too


When Saddam still failed to comply, we prepared to act militarily. It was only then, at the last possible moment, that Iraq backed down. It pledged to the U.N. that it had made, and I quote, "a clear and unconditional decision to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors." I decided then to call off the attack with our airplanes already in the air because Saddam had given in to our demands. I concluded then that the right thing to do was to use restraint and give Saddam one last chance to prove his willingness to cooperate. I made it very clear at that time what unconditional cooperation meant, based on existing U.N. resolutions and Iraq's own commitments. And along with Prime Minister Blair of Great Britain, I made it equally clear that if Saddam failed to cooperate fully, we would be prepared to act without delay, diplomacy or warning.~bill clinton in address to the nation 1998


it seems iraq's actions "based existing UN resolutions" were fine for bill clinton to attack iraq...he came right out and said so. no big liberal outcry then....


and what conclusion did clinton reach?

"The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently."~bill clinton in adress to the nation 1998

of course clinton lied, he did not help the iraqi opposition forces, he did not take the time to finish it, as per his MO he lobbed a few missiles over and called it a day, just like he did with al qeada.



would you like to see a contrast of quotes from daschle and pelosi from 1998 to now? they are VERY interesting reading as well.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Shadow,

Let's take the stuff you say before the post on political quotes.

You say: "The fact is the majority of the iraqi people who want us there, but i get my information from many soldiers who have been over there instead of the media, the two views often conflict.(i live at Fort Hood BTW where most of 4th id and 1st cav is based)

I respond: A lifetime of swatting flies does not make one an entomologist. I live in Berkeley. At least I know I'm getting distorted information. You don't seem to acknowledge that you're getting distorted information from your source. Like everywhere else, the vast majority of Iraqis are apolitical. They weren't bothered by Sadaam and they aren't bothered by us. We're working hard at alienating even the Iraqis who want us there. The regular part of the army that deals with Iraqis is unprepared to meet Iraqis on terms that are acceptable to the Iraqis. The occupation will not work. Violence will continue to escalate. Note: This is a prediction based on my analysis. If you think your facts reflect reality, make a prediction about what will happen. You Cons are slim on that. That's why they say, "Slow thinkers, keep right."

You say: If we pull out saddam will come back in power with help from the other baath socialist state syria, that much is assured, then all the blood spilled and coalition dead will be for nothing, a sacrifice in vain.

I respond: Did you ever hear the expression, "Throwing good money after bad?" We made a mistake going to Iraq. That mistake has cost us and will cost us even more -- I mean in lives, ours and theirs, not money (let's not even talk about money). The article, which I doubt you read, deals with the possibility that the Baathists will come back to power in the middle third of the country. Blood spilled by the coalition dead? Nice to see you don't even give a passing thought the the Iraqi blood spilled. These are human lives, not Quake II.

You say: The strong lib/dem push against the war did not start until they lost the senate in 2002 ...

I respond: BvllSh|t! That may be true where you live, but not where I live. I missed the first organized anti-war rally in San Francisco but I made the second, large rally in October 2002. It was obvious by then that the U.S. was going to invade Iraq. Personally, I'm furious at the Dems who caved in saying, "OK, we'll give it to George. He'll do the right thing."

But, more to the point. I'm predicting that this three way split will occur.

As for the political quotes, politicians say what's expedient at the time.

 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
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i was under the impression that something like this was already in effect. the Brits control one sector [its nice and quiet there i hear, not a whole lot of violence] then the US controls one sector [a ton of violence, i think we got the hardest region to try and bring stability to] and then i really dont know who controls the 3rd sector, but they also have it nice and quiet there. maybe we should get the Brits to give us a hand in getting our sector under control...?

Maybe the US got the short end of the stick, maybe it's the US being there that causes the problems. You never know.
 

rjain

Golden Member
May 1, 2003
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Sounds like an attempt to recreate the slaughter when Pakistan was separated from India. Bleh. "Exit strategy" my arse. They'll just have to leave all their belongings and run for the border like the bulk of both of my parents' extended families. There's a reason why my dad supports bombing the hell out of every country from Egypt to Pakistan.

Shadohawk: Of course the average civilian will tell someone with a rifle in their hands to leave their country if that's what they feel. Right. Maybe I should tell those swat teams running around Penn Station to leave my city and see what they do to me.
rolleye.gif
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Yes Rjain, there probably will be a great slaughter. We have made a serious mistake (IMO). That mistake will have to be paid for one way or another. I think no matter what happens, the Iraqis will pay the greatest cost by far. The Disneyland-like democracy used to promote this war will not come to pass. A period of giant chaos started with the war and will not end for some time.
 

miguel

Senior member
Nov 2, 2001
621
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The 3-way split may indeed happen. Remember that with Germany, four or five counties occupied Germany post-war. Being that we are in this alone, the US may indeed partition our Iraq to different local groups.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
Originally posted by: Whitling
Genesys, it's not like it the liberal position was unknown before the war. It, like the opinion of most of the rest of the world, should have been considered in crafting the plan. We're starting to be attacked in the northern sector and the British (and Spanish) are being attacked in the southern sector. This will grow. It will not be quelled. Fortunately you'll have liberals to blame instead of admitting that the administration screwed up big time.


your a real subtle propagandist whitling, i bet you may even beleive some of that.

the fact is the majority of the iraqi people who want us there, but i get my information from many soldiers who have been over there instead of the media, the two views often conflict.(i live at Fort Hood BTW where most of 4th id and 1st cav is based)

if we pull out saddam will come back in power with help from the other baath socialist state syria, that much is assured, then all the blood spilled and coalition dead will be for nothing, a sacrifice in vain.

the strong lib/dem push against the war did not start until they lost the senate in 2002, the timing seems tome much more than co-incedence, now it is mere politics lets look at the past shall we?

this is from another post i made:

the simple fact is concerning iraq bush picked up right where clinton left off. clinton and the dems were just as convinced as he was by the same evidence, that is until the dems lost the senate in 2002, at which time hypocrites like daschle and pelosi did a 180 not because of evidence, but for political purposes. here we start with clinton.

here clinton describes saddam playing the same game with him as he later did with bush in the exact same way he had been doing it for a DECADE.

"Iraq repeatedly blocked UNSCOM from inspecting suspect sites. For example, it shut off access to the headquarters of its ruling party and said it will deny access to the party's other offices, even though U.N. resolutions make no exception for them and UNSCOM has inspected them in the past. Iraq repeatedly restricted UNSCOM's ability to obtain necessary evidence. For example, Iraq obstructed UNSCOM's effort to photograph bombs related to its chemical weapons program. It tried to stop an UNSCOM biological weapons team from videotaping a site and photocopying documents and prevented Iraqi personnel from answering UNSCOM's questions. Prior to the inspection of another site, Iraq actually emptied out the building, removing not just documents but even the furniture and the equipment."~bill clinton adress to the nation 1998 after attacking iraq.


now zip ahead a 4 years bush is threating saddam with military action if he does not co-operate FULLY defined the EXACT same way clinton did...what happens? the same old thing he has been doing. stalling and obstructing...stalling while trucks laod (powell actually showed film of this happening) but of course with nothing to hide like say...mobile chem labs and a 40 acre hidden chemical complex....


this is VERY interesting too


When Saddam still failed to comply, we prepared to act militarily. It was only then, at the last possible moment, that Iraq backed down. It pledged to the U.N. that it had made, and I quote, "a clear and unconditional decision to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors." I decided then to call off the attack with our airplanes already in the air because Saddam had given in to our demands. I concluded then that the right thing to do was to use restraint and give Saddam one last chance to prove his willingness to cooperate. I made it very clear at that time what unconditional cooperation meant, based on existing U.N. resolutions and Iraq's own commitments. And along with Prime Minister Blair of Great Britain, I made it equally clear that if Saddam failed to cooperate fully, we would be prepared to act without delay, diplomacy or warning.~bill clinton in address to the nation 1998


it seems iraq's actions "based existing UN resolutions" were fine for bill clinton to attack iraq...he came right out and said so. no big liberal outcry then....


and what conclusion did clinton reach?

"The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently."~bill clinton in adress to the nation 1998

of course clinton lied, he did not help the iraqi opposition forces, he did not take the time to finish it, as per his MO he lobbed a few missiles over and called it a day, just like he did with al qeada.



would you like to see a contrast of quotes from daschle and pelosi from 1998 to now? they are VERY interesting reading as well.

Heh, another right winger trying to justify the crap current Admin pulled by saying Clinton supported it too.

No Clinton was not stupid enough to actually invade and occupy Iraq, destroy the country's infrastructure, political and social structure, and try to create a system in Iraq based on American's understanding of the country.

Yes, Clinton was trying to get rid of Saddam, but he and his advisor was smart enough to understand that American won't be able to force the change and actually create a new government and a new system for Iraq. They knew it had to come from Iraqi themselves. That's why they were using diplomatic efforts, including helping Iraqi opposition, in hope to make the change without American direct involvment.

But hey, Bush and all the right wingers thought they knew everything, including how to construct a government from ground up for people they knew nothing about, and you know the rest.

So please top equating Bush Admin and Clinton Admin, you may not be able to tell the difference, but there are plenty of intelligent people out there who can.

 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
NICE MAP

Check it out - if you cut the country into thirds, in the North near Takrit and in the South
between the 32nd and the 33rd Parallel you have effectivly cut the middle off from the part
of Iraq that has a known and functional oil capacity.

The center one-third, around Baghdad is not at access to the asset value of that industry,
so the Baathist loose their power over the rest of the country.

Kurds in the North, partially at peace with Turkey, but a threat to Turkey as a nation due
to the high population densith of Kurds in the South. Kurds, always the Kurds.
God, these must be some miserable people to be punished so much - for so long, just for being Kurds.
But now they have political and federal control of the Nothern Oil Reserves and all the trimmings.
And all that agricultural area that they will need to grow the Castorbean plant - to make Ricin.

In the South - More Oil ! Sunni-Arabian by trademark, a leisure subsidy of British Petroleum.
And enough sand to choke a glass factory to death.
And access to a Sea Port.

And meanwhile, back in Baghdad, you've stranded a city of 5 Million with no visible means of support.
Looks like Welfare to me. Just 'Not-In-My-Back-Yard' But not much more dangerous than say, Dallas ?


 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Hmmm. I heard the author speak. It must have been there that he addressed the issue of the Sunis. I didn't see it in the printed article when I reread it. He favors a federation of the three regions. The Sunis have the administrative skills and contacts. The author's point is that you keep U.S. troops in the north and the south, where they are much less likely to be killed. The Sunis will pretty much have to cooperate if they want to make a living. They will not be able to invade with the U.S. troop presence in the north and south. As an aside, which I'm sure no one has considered, ;) it would be a great excuse for having U.S. bases there. We'd be protecting instead of exploiting -- it's all I can do to keep from putting quote marks around "protecting" and "exploiting."
 

KenGr

Senior member
Aug 22, 2002
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I think CaptnKirk gets it right. Splitting the country into separate entities looks attractive and an easy out, but it ultimately probably does a disservice to the Iraqi people. The sum of the parts type of story. You end up with a very dangerous imbalance and a very high probability of long term hostility at the borders. This may be inevitable but I don't think that should be the default approach. Iraq has functioned as a single entity under the various administrations of the past so there is at least a reasonable chance of some type of stable confederation emerging.

There certainly are external reasons to try to maintain a single country also. I don't think it increases mid-east security to create a "Kurdish Homeland" and a "Sunni Ghetto".

 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
It's a stupid idea. Turkey would never tolerate a Kurdish state. It would start a war there. Shiite Iraq would likely join Iran, which US doesn't want. And Sunny Iraq is likely to become a terrorist state if left alone.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's a stupid idea. Turkey would never tolerate a Kurdish state. It would start a war there. Shiite Iraq would likely join Iran, which US doesn't want. And Sunny Iraq is likely to become a terrorist state if left alone.

Read my post I was'nt kidding. Perpetual war for petrol.:)
 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
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Originally posted by: SuperTool
It's a stupid idea. Turkey would never tolerate a Kurdish state. It would start a war there. Shiite Iraq would likely join Iran, which US doesn't want. And Sunny Iraq is likely to become a terrorist state if left alone.

Well you're right on that remark. Turkey would not allow it, specially since those same Kurdish forces attacked Turkish troops during the 90's. My uncle worked for the new york times, he knows several reporters and consultants whom are middle eastern and kurdish origins. He's mentioned before that nyt has its own agenda to help build a separate kurdish nation(no conspiracy however). I didn't believe him (back in 99), but now this article really affirms what he told me long ago.

Why do you think the Kurds and Airborne are really getting "swell" up in the north; while in Baghdad and Tikrit Americans are being shot at. Further south the SHiite's have no quarrel with the English because of their "good" history with them. Also the Kurds have the military might, leadership skills to grab itself a great share of land over the other 2 impressionable states. Will kurdistan be satisfied with the land that they will be given? Most likely not, and then the immediate middle east region will be in a world of sh!t.

This is one of the major reasons why Turkey is not really getting behind the whole iraq deal. They're waiting in the wings... if Kurdistan is allowed to be formed, you can expect immediate war waged between the two. Can't really blame both sides in this matter. They both want the land/oil in the region, and Turkey right now is in a depression itself with its lackluster economy. A war and new revenue would really help their cause. (also the turkish public really wouldn't be outraged over the war since they dislike kurds anyhow, and the promise of more land, money is also "worthy" fight for them)

 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
I don't see a scenario under which we win in Iraq. Maybe someone can explain it to me. Are we really going to allow democracy in a country where ayatollahs have huge influence over how majority of the people votes, where it's highly unlikely that the will of the majority of Iraqis will align with US interests in the region. Are we going to tolerate democracy if it means the possibility of anti-US forces winning elections?
 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
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^ What were doing in Iraq is a spoon feeding a sick child to swallow his cough medicine. We know it's good for him, but the child thinks other wise. Sooner or later the child has to swallow or there will be no-one to take care of it.

Also we shouldn't be so hasty with the Iraqis either. I mean, the US itself took a LOOONG time making its own constitution after the defeat of the British, 8 years if I remember correctly. What gives Iraq the ability to form one in less than 2 years? Mind you Iraq's history was not based on representative governors as pre-united states had under british rule. Iraqi's went from one ruler (ottomans-->king whomever-->saddam), I don't think there was a period of time where people could gather intellectually, non-religiously, collectively to agree on the MOST BASIC needs of the Iraqi's. To this day its not (ohh yeah sure electricy and water... what about speech, press, security,freedom to do the hell you want) Thats the Iraq WE want, what about what they want?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Whitling
If the U.S. can establish a representative government in Iraq, I'll vote Republican in one national election.
As Gaard likes to say, I'm putting this one in the vault :) Might not come out, but you never know...

 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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KGB, remember, you heard it hear first. Turkey will go along with the split. Did you read any of the entries about the U.S. Army being in what is now northern Iraq. Do you think the Turks will make an outright armed defiance. No way. About your second post, I agree with it but I do not think it is possible to form a representative government in Iraq while we are the administrators. The anti-American feeling is much too strong.
 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
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Originally posted by: Whitling
KGB, remember, you heard it hear first. Turkey will go along with the split. Did you read any of the entries about the U.S. Army being in what is now northern Iraq. Do you think the Turks will make an outright armed defiance. No way. About your second post, I agree with it but I do not think it is possible to form a representative government in Iraq while we are the administrators. The anti-American feeling is much too strong.

What makes you so certain? The passifist nature of the Turks just as the Japanese are now? Maybe its that most of Turksih parliament is 45% Kurdish itself :confused: Yeap, odd how Turks have a minority in gov't that is Kurdish. So the Turks really wouldn't want war in that case, since Kurdistan could actually be a great ally and help Turkish industry (since a turkish company is contrated to repair an airfield for $4 Million). What would happen if Turkey did not abide? Lose relations with the West? Specially losing ties with US and Europe. Not to mention getting kicked out of NATO.

Turkey on the other hand does have a powerful ally in Israel, and it has production capabilites of fighter planes and materials to make weapons. Most turks don't see the GOOD side of being friends with America and NATO; they're still out of the European Union, Euro currency and really don't get fair trading deals. What's Turkey to LOSE if they wage war?

 

KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
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Originally posted by: Whitling
KGB, I didn't know that Israel was producing its own fighter planes. Israeli Airforce

You know my english professor really pointed this put out to me in her office; about sentence structure and fragmented run-ons.. I should really have listend instead of nodding. The planes I was mentioning was about Turkey. They themselves have planes and bought rights to make them also. I understand why you thought it Israel who was making them.

/dont care however english professor is damn hot and asian.. fvck me I should really do her before the semester is finished.