Iran tests short-range missiles amid nuclear tension

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: sandorski
Short Range Missiles are only a concern if you want to be an Aggressor. AKA, they're more Defencive than Offensive weapons.

That is true and I suppose what Iran was saying to the world. What concerns me is this Iranian two stage. "Sejjil-2, with a 2000-2500 km range was test fired on May 20, 2009''.
Israel might really be wanting to insure that Iran don't put a nuke on the top of it.

I really don't think Iran wants to Nuke Israel. Nukes are, or so they have become, Defencive Weapons. Just look at North Korea as an example. Since I brought NK up, I doubt Iran would use such a Weapon the way NK has, that being as a way to Blackmail freebies out of the International community.

I don't want Iran to have a Nuke as anyone, but as long as others exist who are willing to meddle in other Nations affairs at whim, Nuclear proliferation is just going to accelerate. IMO, it's time to put some Principles to a Test, primarily Freedom and Self Determination. Opposition to a Nations choice of Government or Economic Models needs to wane, that's so Cold War mentality. Make National Aggression against other Nations the new paradigm of Evil, rather than Government or Economic Structure. Nations like Iran have some legitimate grievances and it has been proved that Nukes are a guarantor of Security from Foreign meddlers. It might be too late to prevent certain Nations from developing Nukes, but for the longterm taking away the incentive is best for everyone.

That makes sense too.
I wish I could find some solid footing for myself on this Mid East Issue. I go from one end to the other and it is becoming disconcerting. At this point I'm not too worried about Iran but am about Pakistan and Israel. Well, maybe just Israel atm and because I listened to a C-Span interview with an Ex Ambassador from Israel to the UN... He assured the audience that Attacking Iran was on the table... As I recall Israel attacked an Iraqi Nuclear Plant in '81 that was damaged by Iran in '80 and they said they did it to prevent Iraq from getting nuclear weapons. IF they'd attack Iraq who at the time used chemicals against Iran they didn't much care if Iraq turned on them with some because of the attack. I get a funny feeling that Israel is capable of doing stuff out side the box. Entebbe showed me they will do what it takes to defend their people. Idi Amin was not Iran's what's his face, though and neither was he Saddam. But still...

 

[irishScott]

"Iran" has no intention of nuking Israel. The fanatics who make up a sizable portion of Iran's government do.

In any case, I don't think we have to worry about Iran getting nukes, quite simply because the Israelis won't allow it. They won't nuke Iran, but I imagine Mossad know's Iran nuclear status almost as well as the Iranian government. If they get confirmed intel that Iran has nukes, I forsee a nice big air strike coming out of Israel. Iran's air defences are crap. Remember the huge hubub when Israel took out a partially constructed Nuclear reactor in Syria last year? Well they did take it out... after they flew across the country and back without being detected. And guess what? Turns out those fighters were equipped with some new jamming/electronic warfare equipment and Syria had just installed a new Russian-designed AA system. Never mind the fact that we'll probably just let them fly through Iraq.

As for the nuclear issue as a whole, remember that Israel is tiny. 8 small nukes could wipe it off the map. Now take into account a dense infrastructure, one correctly placed nuke could devastate the entire country. The possibility of a nuke falling into the hands of fanatics is something Israel cannot risk under any circumstances.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: jpeyton
This is a direct response to the sabre-rattling that Obama did last week.

Iran is letting the US/UK/FR/etc. know that they aren't going to be bullied when talks begin in October.

When is Obama going to stop this cowboy diplomacy?!

He probably wont. He's pretty much in step with Bush on foreign policy.

Only when it comes to the interests of Israel. On other fronts, he's a bit different - see the missle shield in Poland, for example.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have an idea of what Israel is thinking but they are simply not thinking straight.

Tell me again why Israel has the right to Nukes and all their neighbors do not?

Its not like Israel is the responsible one here, even Obama is telling them not to settle on the West bank that is not their to settle on, and Israel ignores the world and keeps on doing it. Israel also stands accused of war crimes by the UN and Israel tells the UN where to shove it.

But that might be a plan, in exchange for Israel giving up its nukes, Iran will agree to forgo any any nuclear weapons development with the 100% international inspections to guarantee it on both sides.

Because the chances of Israel using nukes against any of their neighbors is ZERO unless they are attacked first. The chances of Iran using them against Israel are not ZERO. THATS why. Of course, if Iran were to nuke Israel everyone like you would just to 'Oops! I guess we were wrong.. sorry about the 100,000 dead people'. That kind of attitude got 6 million jews killed 70 years ago.

There is no benefit to the world to allow Iran to get nukes. Israel benefits because its surrounded by people who want nothing more than to wipe Israel off the face of the earth for purely religious reasons.

It amazes me that the same people of this forum who think religion is so dangerous that we must keep prayer out of our schools and the 10 commandments away from any government buildings think giving a bunch of radical Muslim's a nuke is a good idea.

WTF?

You trust Israel. I don't. I don't blame the Iranians for mistrusting Israel either.

Remember MAD? It made sure dumb warmongering hicks on both sides didn't decide to start WWIII. Same principle here.

Keep your religion in church, Grandpa.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: brandonb
We test fire missiles daily. So what?

The difference is that the Iranian government is sitting on masses of oil which is our establishment class's right to exploit to further stuff their own pockets, while Iranians only have the right to get out of the way.

Originally posted by: irishScott
"Iran" has no intention of nuking Israel. The fanatics who make up a sizable portion of Iran's government do.

Utter bullshit.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have an idea of what Israel is thinking but they are simply not thinking straight.

Tell me again why Israel has the right to Nukes and all their neighbors do not?

Its not like Israel is the responsible one here, even Obama is telling them not to settle on the West bank that is not their to settle on, and Israel ignores the world and keeps on doing it. Israel also stands accused of war crimes by the UN and Israel tells the UN where to shove it.

But that might be a plan, in exchange for Israel giving up its nukes, Iran will agree to forgo any any nuclear weapons development with the 100% international inspections to guarantee it on both sides.

Because the chances of Israel using nukes against any of their neighbors is ZERO unless they are attacked first. The chances of Iran using them against Israel are not ZERO. THATS why. Of course, if Iran were to nuke Israel everyone like you would just to 'Oops! I guess we were wrong.. sorry about the 100,000 dead people'. That kind of attitude got 6 million jews killed 70 years ago.

There is no benefit to the world to allow Iran to get nukes. Israel benefits because its surrounded by people who want nothing more than to wipe Israel off the face of the earth for purely religious reasons.

It amazes me that the same people of this forum who think religion is so dangerous that we must keep prayer out of our schools and the 10 commandments away from any government buildings think giving a bunch of radical Muslim's a nuke is a good idea.

WTF?

You trust Israel. I don't. I don't blame the Iranians for mistrusting Israel either.

Remember MAD? It made sure dumb warmongering hicks on both sides didn't decide to start WWIII. Same principle here.

Keep your religion in church, Grandpa.

I trust Israel MORE than I trust Iran. If YOU don't, then that scares me. Again, explain to me how the left in this country thinks its so over the line to allow the 10 commandments in a courthouse - But allowing a fanatical Islamic regime to have nukes is somehow a GOOD idea?

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: brandonb
We test fire missiles daily. So what?

The difference is that the Iranian government is sitting on masses of oil which is our establishment class's right to exploit to further stuff their own pockets, while Iranians only have the right to get out of the way.

Originally posted by: irishScott
"Iran" has no intention of nuking Israel. The fanatics who make up a sizable portion of Iran's government do.

Utter bullshit.

Perhaps, but if you are wrong. And Iran DOES nuke Israel.. Your response will be? Oops! Sorry about those 250,000 dead people and the destructions of your entire civilization. Thats the beauty of liberalism - You can take the high road positions like being anti-war but when the shit hits the fan you just say OOPS, guess I was wrong, and move on.. You never have to make a tough decision.. If Iran does Nuke Israel its not like the liberals will be blamed for not acting.. the blame and attention will be on Iran and all the liberals will vote 100% to take action on Iran and look unified when all along they were part of the problem.

 

[Lemon law]

The FearNoEvil illusion is that Israel would be like some parent spanking a child in bombing Iran, and that Iran would simply have to grin and bear it. Israel instead may discover they bit off more than they can chew.

I can think of quite a few things Iran can do to Israel that would end up fixing their wagon. If the international community does not put an end to Israeli aggresion beforehand.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Perhaps, but if you are wrong. And Iran DOES nuke Israel.. Your response will be? Oops! Sorry about those 250,000 dead people and the destructions of your entire civilization. Thats the beauty of liberalism - You can take the high road positions like being anti-war but when the shit hits the fan you just say OOPS, guess I was wrong, and move on.. You never have to make a tough decision.. If Iran does Nuke Israel its not like the liberals will be blamed for not acting.. the blame and attention will be on Iran and all the liberals will vote 100% to take action on Iran and look unified when all along they were part of the problem.

This post shows an awesome level of reality distortion. When confronted with a supposed nuclear threat from Iraq (that is quite similar to this one), we undertook an invasion that has led to at an absolute minimum around 100,000 deaths. When that turned out to be a catastropic mistake our leaders basically said 'OOPS, guess I was wrong', and moved on.

So lay it out FNE, what do you think we should do? Please lay out the course of action the US should take along with the consequences that will arise from those actions.

 

[Modelworks]

How I think it will play out is Iran will go to the talks using the missile launches to imply they could do something but never threaten to actually use them. The UN will suggest sanctions if they don't comply with inspections. Iran will agree to inspections. After a few weeks the inspectors will go there and something will occur like Iran turning them away. The UN will call them back for another talk , they'll promise again, and the whole cycle repeats.

They will not do much to Iran that involves force unless they can be absolutely sure of a quick success because Iran controls the waters that a lot of oil passes through. Iran knows this. Imagine what would happen to gas prices and the economy if Iran started stopping or slowing shipments through the waters.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: brandonb
We test fire missiles daily. So what?

The difference is that the Iranian government is sitting on masses of oil which is our establishment class's right to exploit to further stuff their own pockets, while Iranians only have the right to get out of the way.

Originally posted by: irishScott
"Iran" has no intention of nuking Israel. The fanatics who make up a sizable portion of Iran's government do.

Utter bullshit.

Perhaps, but if you are wrong. And Iran DOES nuke Israel.. Your response will be? Oops! Sorry about those 250,000 dead people and the destructions of your entire civilization. Thats the beauty of liberalism - You can take the high road positions like being anti-war but when the shit hits the fan you just say OOPS, guess I was wrong, and move on.. You never have to make a tough decision.. If Iran does Nuke Israel its not like the liberals will be blamed for not acting.. the blame and attention will be on Iran and all the liberals will vote 100% to take action on Iran and look unified when all along they were part of the problem.

I don't believe Iran will ever attack Israel. However, I have a slight feeling Israel and it's allies (the USA) will probably strike Iran first. Why wouldn't they? They have already blew the crap out of Lebanon, Gaza, dropped a few bombs on Syria, destroyed Iraq, left Afghasnistan is shambles. Pakistan is considered "terrorist friendly." Saudi Arabia is a sexist monarchy which housed people like Osama Bin Ladin. I mean the only country not considered dangerous over there is Jordan which conviently has a peace treaty with Israel. I doubt Turkey is much of a threat either, do they have a peace treaty with Israel?

It reminds me of the Cold War. Israel and it's allies say "Shame on you" and our presidential candidates say "Bomb bomb Iran" and then you expect Iran not to arm and prepare itself for attack? It's idiotic to think they'd do anything but... I hope Iran does arm itself. We seem more dangerous than they do, and are likely going to be the instigators to any attacks.

The only way to fix the problem is to sit down at a table and discuss and show them we have no intention of attacking them, but we always do the opposite, and refuse to even have any diplomatic ties.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: brandonb
We test fire missiles daily. So what?

The difference is that the Iranian government is sitting on masses of oil which is our establishment class's right to exploit to further stuff their own pockets, while Iranians only have the right to get out of the way.

Originally posted by: irishScott
"Iran" has no intention of nuking Israel. The fanatics who make up a sizable portion of Iran's government do.

Utter bullshit.

Perhaps, but if you are wrong. And Iran DOES nuke Israel.. Your response will be? Oops! Sorry about those 250,000 dead people and the destructions of your entire civilization. Thats the beauty of liberalism - You can take the high road positions like being anti-war but when the shit hits the fan you just say OOPS, guess I was wrong, and move on.. You never have to make a tough decision.. If Iran does Nuke Israel its not like the liberals will be blamed for not acting.. the blame and attention will be on Iran and all the liberals will vote 100% to take action on Iran and look unified when all along they were part of the problem.

I don't believe Iran will ever attack Israel. However, I have a slight feeling Israel and it's allies (the USA) will probably strike Iran first. Why wouldn't they? They have already blew the crap out of Lebanon, Gaza, dropped a few bombs on Syria, destroyed Iraq, left Afghasnistan is shambles. Pakistan is considered "terrorist friendly." Saudi Arabia is a sexist monarchy which housed people like Osama Bin Ladin. I mean the only country not considered dangerous over there is Jordan which conviently has a peace treaty with Israel. I doubt Turkey is much of a threat either, do they have a peace treaty with Israel?

It reminds me of the Cold War. Israel and it's allies say "Shame on you" and our presidential candidates say "Bomb bomb Iran" and then you expect Iran not to arm and prepare itself for attack? It's idiotic to think they'd do anything but... I hope Iran does arm itself. We seem more dangerous than they do, and are likely going to be the instigators to any attacks.

The only way to fix the problem is to sit down at a table and discuss and show them we have no intention of attacking them, but we always do the opposite, and refuse to even have any diplomatic ties.

in repsonse to bold- Israel has already tried sitting down for peace talks, even with hamas in gaza, yet hamas would not sit in the same room with them.

when both sides are ready to sit at the same table and discuss the problems instead of having a middle man is when there will be peace.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This hasn't been about Israel or any other nation. It's about the last election in Iran. Abuwhatsit and his superiors are hoping for retaliation from the west to rally the troops (aka the citizens) behind them.

Diplomacy is useless with Iran since we don't have anything they want, and their leadership detests us. That's the difference between Israel and Iran as far as the US goes. Is Israel a saint and Iran sinners? No, that's too simplistic, however Israel is an ally and Iran is nothing like that.

The real problem is that Iran is not yet trustworthy(read stable) yet and so I think letting them have a nuke is a bad idea. On the other hand going after their nuke program just might push the population into a long term anti-US stance.

Not an easy nut to crack.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to wonder what the Iranian response would be to an Israeli attack on its nuclear facilities.

But the tit for tat response that first comes to mind is the Israeli reactor at Dimona. Its well defended by arrow and patriot missiles that may be able to take out a slow moving cruise missile like a scud, but some of the Iranian rockets would come in almost like intercontinental ballistic missiles, high and very fast.

Worse yet for Israel, their Dimona reactor has cracks in its containment dome, its already leaking neutrons which can weaken the concrete, so even a near miss from conventional explosives could collapse the structure. Worse yet its reactor design is similar to the Chernoble design, cut off the cooling water and a melt down can occur. If significant damage occurs to the Dimona reactor, and major radiation is released, the damage would fall more on the West bank than Israel itself, but sooner or later its proximity to Israel would possibly make the whole region inhabitable.

One would hope Israel would have the brains and caution to largely shut down Dimona before they attacked Iran, but even then, any Israeli attack on Iran would make the Dimona reactor a prime terrorist target for decades.

 

[StageLeft]

Iran is doing just fine. They are, under the nose of the US and others, creating a nuclear program that ultimately will give them the bomb, and it's unlikely anything is going to stop them.

 

[Patranus]

And we don't want to help our European "allies"....why?

If anything this shows that there is a greater need for a missile shield.

I guess the USA got nothing from the Russians after Obama essentially sucked them off.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Patranus
And we don't want to help our European "allies"....why?

If anything this shows that there is a greater need for a missile shield.

I guess the USA got nothing from the Russians after Obama essentially sucked them off.

Not only can those missiles not reach most of our European allies, but the redeployment of ABM resources towards ship based interceptors would probably be MORE effective than our land ones. (ship based interception has the best track record so far)

Bush's idea of putting US military hardware in Russia's backyard was dumb, it pissed them off and we didn't get anything for it. This is a smarter move by far.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Patranus
And we don't want to help our European "allies"....why?

If anything this shows that there is a greater need for a missile shield.

I guess the USA got nothing from the Russians after Obama essentially sucked them off.

Not only can those missiles not reach most of our European allies, but the redeployment of ABM resources towards ship based interceptors would probably be MORE effective than our land ones. (ship based interception has the best track record so far)

Bush's idea of putting US military hardware in Russia's backyard was dumb, it pissed them off and we didn't get anything for it. This is a smarter move by far.

Well, you're a US Navy man so you should know, good luck getting any of the armchair generals listening to you about it though.

 

[Infohawk]

We should just contain Iran. A complete embargo would probably change their attitude. On the other hand, proliferation is going to happen. We need to continue developing defenses and I'm fine for letting Israel take care of itself.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: brandonb
We test fire missiles daily. So what?

The difference is that the Iranian government is sitting on masses of oil which is our establishment class's right to exploit to further stuff their own pockets, while Iranians only have the right to get out of the way.

Originally posted by: irishScott
"Iran" has no intention of nuking Israel. The fanatics who make up a sizable portion of Iran's government do.

Utter bullshit.

The fricken President of Iran said Israel should be wiped off the map. I know Ackmadjinafuck doesn't have that much power, but the fact that the Ayatollah continues to support this guy says it all. Sizeable = not negligible. Meaning if Iran gets a nuke there is a possibility, however remote, that the fanatics will gain control of it and use it. As opposed to the US and most other nuclear nations, where that has a zero chance of happening.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
We should just contain Iran. A complete embargo would probably change their attitude. On the other hand, proliferation is going to happen. We need to continue developing defenses and I'm fine for letting Israel take care of itself.

Little hard when the Russians and China are not playing ball.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I am beginning to think that Iran suffers from multiple personality disorder, switching between a side yelling peace and another saying I will destroy you all.




http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/...issile.test/index.html

(CNN) -- Iran tested a missile-launching system and two types of missiles Sunday, the state-run Press TV said. The missile tests come amid tension over the Islamic republic's nuclear program.

The missiles, fired at targets around the country Sunday, included the Fateh-110, a short-range ground-to-ground missile, and Tondar-69, a short-range naval missile, the station said. Iran plans to test the long-range Shahab missile on Monday.

The tests, which are expected to go on for the next 10 to 11 days, are codenamed "Payghambar-e Azam 4" or "The Great Messenger 4," Press TV said.

Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps had said it would stage missile exercises to promote the armed forces' defense capabilities.

The tests come after Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's disclosure Friday that Iran was building a second uranium enrichment facility.

The United States and Israel believe that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons under the guise of a civilian nuclear energy program. Iran has denied the allegation.

So fucking what? They have had short range and long range for a fucking decade.

They don't give a sheit about your chatter on any issues, their planned test launches will go as they have been planned, it's nothing strange with that what so ever for them.

They really don't give a shit about threats, they have been living with it for three decades and they are not more scared of your huffing and puffing now than they were 30 years ago.

Naturally this will escalate as opinion numbers require them to, after all, that is why US politicians go to war.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
We should just contain Iran. A complete embargo would probably change their attitude. On the other hand, proliferation is going to happen. We need to continue developing defenses and I'm fine for letting Israel take care of itself.

That worked so well for Iraq, they just gave up their weapons program! Oh wait, it didn't. Or it did but we still didn't care and invaded them. The track record for listening to the US's demands in the last decade has not been stellar. Comply and get bombed. Don't comply and get bombed.

Plus, the fact that Israel has WMDs and nukes and not a damn thing is said about it probably ires Iran a lot. Justified or not, Israel's nukes are the 800lb gorilla in the room.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Perhaps, but if you are wrong. And Iran DOES nuke Israel.. Your response will be?

I figure the possibility of that is far less than the possibility of you snapping and going on a mass murder spree. What do you suggest I should do to save others from you?

Originally posted by: Freshgeardude
Israel has already tried sitting down for peace talks, even with hamas in gaza, yet hamas would not sit in the same room with them.

Israel couldn't even agree to Obama's request to take a short break from wiping Palestine off the map with their ongoing settlement expansion, even though we continue to give them billions of dollars a year, as we have done for decades. As long as not even the President of the US can convince Israel to show some respect for Palestinians right to what little of their homeland they have left, there is no point in Palestinians attempting to negotiate anything.

Originally posted by: irishScott
The fricken President of Iran said Israel should be wiped off the map.

No, he fricken didn't.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

They don't give a sheit about your chatter on any issues, their planned test launches will go as they have been planned, it's nothing strange with that what so ever for them.

They really don't give a shit about threats, they have been living with it for three decades and they are not more scared of your huffing and puffing now than they were 30 years ago.

Naturally this will escalate as opinion numbers require them to, after all, that is why US politicians go to war.

You really need to cut back on the drugs, it is damaging your brain.